From what I read it's pretty clear to me that those people simply don't want to pay their taxes.
The IRS tells them "hey,you have cryptocurrencies worth millions of dollars,sell your crypto and pay your taxes without intallments!",but those people are just "nah,we can't sell our crypto,we wanna pay in a 6-year time frame".This is just plain stupid to me.I assume that the IRS will try to confiscate a large portion of their crytpocurrency investments.
Trying to hide your wealth from taxes by investing in cryptocurrencies isn't that easy.
Topic: Couple was forcibly ask by IRS to sell their crypto to pay their liabilities - page 2. (Read 898 times)
June 26, 2020, 06:55:52 AM
June 26, 2020, 06:36:09 AM
Cryptocurrency is already under the scanner of government agencies. They have associated it with everything which is illegal.
If they need to sell their crypto assets then they should otherwise, the tax agency would suggest the government that cryptocurrency is a new illegal way for them to abet tax.
If they need to sell their crypto assets then they should otherwise, the tax agency would suggest the government that cryptocurrency is a new illegal way for them to abet tax.
Really?
How the fuck would be crypto illegal in the US when even in this case alone they recognized the value of a crypto investment?
They are paying their taxes and the IRS has recognized that those cryptos they hold (whatever they have) are valuable in terms of $
What the hell is illegal?
Damn, why do people jump so fast to a conclusion that's always the evil gubbermint that is to blame?
They essentially used the IRS as a backer for their investments. Now the IRS wants their money. They'll get it too. Legally, the couple has no legs to stand on. The IRS can approve or deny payment plans at their discretion. If a taxpayer doesn't pay on time and the IRS doesn't approve a payment plan,
Yeah, surprisingly it's not the IRS that's doing any kind of abuse here it's the ones not paying their taxes.
You can argue taxes are not fair, you can argue that cryptos shouldn't be taxed but here we're talking about liability from 2017, which,
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They did not check the box indicating that they could not pay the balance, and they did not dispute their underlying liability for 2017.
They are sitting on 7 millions of cryptos value they don't want to sell their 1 million debt but they wanted an installment plan for
Quote
On July 24, 2018, petitioners sent the IRS via certified mail a Form 9465, Installment Agreement Request, proposing to pay their 2017 tax liability in installments over a six-year period.
Not only that but they're were withdrawing money on a monthly bases
Quote
During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently withdrawing $19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she
asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liability in full.
asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liability in full.
Let's assume you were the IRS, someone has 7 times the debt they've own you for 4 years at their disposal, what would you do?
Agree on 6-year plan in which the only guarantee you have to actually get paid is that is someone telling you those coins might increase in value, or ask them to liquidate now and pay their debts?
June 26, 2020, 06:28:29 AM
*We are all being tracked*
Lets leave it at that .
Lets leave it at that .
yes. and even if blockchain analysis isnt that good now, it will be.
i mentioned upthread i always pull 20% more on sells so its already in fiat for taxes. i dont touch that 20% fiat in the bank, only cash it in when the man wants his tax.
also i put on my tax returns the stuff i buy through payment processors and stores that take btc directly. as they are taxable events and need to be reported too.
now i probably could of got away with not reporting newegg or whatever purchases, but im sure glad i did. you do NOT want the IRS as your enemy.
June 26, 2020, 06:08:03 AM
They are milking people against gains that actually NEVER materialized.
But they did materialise. The trader made profit and that profit was available to realise. It's not the tax man's problem if he immediately threw it back in somewhere else. It's his responsibility to secure their share.
It's not crypto 'persecution', the same thing applies everywhere else too. If he were moving between currencies forex trading it may never be dollars but there still might be profits that are taxable in dollars.
June 26, 2020, 02:02:54 AM
For me, it is better to pay up their debt using part of the crypto they have. The couple know what they are doing and it makes me tend to believe they do not want to pay that debt because if they do, nothing stops them from using part of crypto. I have seen and read stories about people invading tax and don't want to pay and this is part of reason why some countries want to regulate crypto. If you enjoy social amenities and other benefit from the government, I do not see any reason why you shouldn't pay
June 26, 2020, 12:04:13 AM
By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment.
What many crypto 'traders' will have done is put whatever gain they made straight back in and many will have subsequently lost it. The moment you realise any gain is when it's taxable and you need to secure that there and then. A frenzied trader could have made tens or hundreds of taxable events every day. Each one counts.
If you don't keep on top of that then you can wind up with nothing and a tax bill that still runs in millions of dollars. I've seen a few cases of this now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/9tcnu8/did_i_ruin_my_life_by_trading_crypto/?sort=confidence
Why isn't there more push-back against this? I guess plenty of people in the Late 2017 pump and dump would have incurred such taxes. I understand the basic concept that every single act of "buy and sell" is something for which you owe the govt tax. That is insane for people who started investing in late 2017, saw a short boom and then had their portfolios wiped out subsequently.
Thanks for your answers @gentlemand and @squatter
June 25, 2020, 08:24:43 AM
In summary:
- Alexander and Laura Strashny filed income tax return due in 2017, but unable to pay
- they sent IRS letters proposing to pay the liability in iinstallments over a period of 6 years
- IRS received the proposal recorded it and put in in pending status
- As of December 2018, the outstanding liability + interest exceeded $1 million
- IRS sent petition notice "Intent to Seize Your Assets" and Notice of Your Right to a Hearing.
- Petitioners timely requested a CDPhearing, expressinginterest in an installment agreement (IA) and attaching a copyof their previously submitted Forms 433-A and 9465. They did notcheck the boxindicating thattheycould not pay the balance, and they did notdispute theirunderlyingliability for 2017.
- SO review the case and saw that they have a huge cryptocurrency investment
- SO eceived from petitioners’ repre-sentative a copy of their 2018 tax return, which reported wages exceeding $200,000, and investment statements showing cryptocurrency assets valued over$7 million. During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently
- 4-[*4] withdrawing$19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liabilityin full.
- Lawyers for the petitioners argue that they are unable to draw on their cryptocurrency account to pay their liability.
- On June 25, 2019, the IRS issued a notice of determination sustaining the proposed levy, rejecting petitioners’ request for an IA, and stating that “[l]evyaction is permitted 30 daysafter the rejection.
https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/USTCInOP/OpinionViewer.aspx?ID=12258
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
- Alexander and Laura Strashny filed income tax return due in 2017, but unable to pay
- they sent IRS letters proposing to pay the liability in iinstallments over a period of 6 years
- IRS received the proposal recorded it and put in in pending status
- As of December 2018, the outstanding liability + interest exceeded $1 million
- IRS sent petition notice "Intent to Seize Your Assets" and Notice of Your Right to a Hearing.
- Petitioners timely requested a CDPhearing, expressinginterest in an installment agreement (IA) and attaching a copyof their previously submitted Forms 433-A and 9465. They did notcheck the boxindicating thattheycould not pay the balance, and they did notdispute theirunderlyingliability for 2017.
- SO review the case and saw that they have a huge cryptocurrency investment
- SO eceived from petitioners’ repre-sentative a copy of their 2018 tax return, which reported wages exceeding $200,000, and investment statements showing cryptocurrency assets valued over$7 million. During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently
- 4-[*4] withdrawing$19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liabilityin full.
- Lawyers for the petitioners argue that they are unable to draw on their cryptocurrency account to pay their liability.
- On June 25, 2019, the IRS issued a notice of determination sustaining the proposed levy, rejecting petitioners’ request for an IA, and stating that “[l]evyaction is permitted 30 daysafter the rejection.
https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/USTCInOP/OpinionViewer.aspx?ID=12258
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
If it all exceeded 1 million dollars , it is a safe bet to say that they have been doing it since a long time , see income tax might now always be reasonable but at the same time If you keep doing your part every year there is nothing to be afraid of.
What the government did shouldn't have been that weird for people , since now every wallet and exchange does have a KYC requirement , the government already records every step , therefore the more they would have waited :
1. The more would have been the interest
2. The price is actually not that bad right now
3. Legal charges would have been more harsh
4. If they have Investment in crypto I do think it is safe to say they they would have had other investments too , so they are actually not loosing much .
They should have just paid it every year , I do think the decision was fair .
At least they are not in the jail , see income tax is only implemented for the people who can afford to pay it , but people try to avoid it when they most easily can be done with it , plus there is no assurance that Bitcoins is going to give good returns in the upcoming year , we all know that we cannot be sure of anything.
*We are all being tracked*
Lets leave it at that .
June 25, 2020, 07:40:47 AM
By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment.
What many crypto 'traders' will have done is put whatever gain they made straight back in and many will have subsequently lost it. The moment you realise any gain is when it's taxable and you need to secure that there and then. A frenzied trader could have made tens or hundreds of taxable events every day. Each one counts.
If you don't keep on top of that then you can wind up with nothing and a tax bill that still runs in millions of dollars. I've seen a few cases of this now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/9tcnu8/did_i_ruin_my_life_by_trading_crypto/?sort=confidence
In this case at least they have the money to meet the debt. Many won't.
I'm not sure whether crypto to crypto trades were taxable that way in 2017, that has been clarified and they are now in the US, crypto to dollars and vice versa always were and I'll bet many ignored that too thinking it didn't count as it was nothing more than a figure on a website.
There may be capital losses you can play against it. Dunno.
June 25, 2020, 01:48:17 AM
As a non-US human,i just want to ask that how exactly do these people rake up such liabilities. By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment. So how do they go from setting up and investment that is worth "1 Million in taxes" and then going back to a stage where they supposedly withdraw 19k per month from crypto account to fund themselves.
That kind of financial mismanagement sounds kindda insane.
That kind of financial mismanagement sounds kindda insane.
The liability stems from 2017. They obviously sold a lot of cryptocurrency that year to have incurred a $1.1 million tax bill. They may have lost a significant amount in early 2018 -- after the market crashed -- and opted not to pay their 2017 taxes, expecting that the IRS would approve a long term payment plan. In the meantime, they probably used their remaining capital to reinvest -- which is likely why they are sitting on $7 million worth of cryptocurrency now. They may be waiting until they can liquidate at long term capital gain rates rather than short term rates.
They essentially used the IRS as a backer for their investments. Now the IRS wants their money. They'll get it too. Legally, the couple has no legs to stand on. The IRS can approve or deny payment plans at their discretion. If a taxpayer doesn't pay on time and the IRS doesn't approve a payment plan, they can put a levy on the taxpayer's assets:
Quote
An IRS levy permits the legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. It can garnish wages, take money in your bank or other financial account, seize and sell your vehicle(s), real estate and other personal property.
Personal property includes digital currency.
I hate the IRS but I wouldn't mess with them, either. Good luck to these people.
June 25, 2020, 01:18:22 AM
As a non-US human,i just want to ask that how exactly do these people rake up such liabilities. By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment. So how do they go from setting up and investment that is worth "1 Million in taxes" and then going back to a stage where they supposedly withdraw 19k per month from crypto account to fund themselves.
That kind of financial mismanagement sounds kindda insane. Business gone bankrupt means you get to file for bankruptcy etc.
While that liability itself is hard to understand, trying to evade it even though you can pay off the taxman is plain stupid at best and fraudulent at worst.
That kind of financial mismanagement sounds kindda insane. Business gone bankrupt means you get to file for bankruptcy etc.
While that liability itself is hard to understand, trying to evade it even though you can pay off the taxman is plain stupid at best and fraudulent at worst.
June 24, 2020, 11:11:16 PM
They were able to withdraw $19000 a month with no economic hardships, according to the T.C. Memo and they still didn't do it? I think that's the problem we are facing now with cryptocurrencies. According to the memo as well, they can pay but still didn't pay the liabilities. They chose not to do so; that's the start of the problem. What they did is that they skipped the part where the government collects the tax, and the government wants that piece of the pie.
June 24, 2020, 10:53:37 PM
Baffling indeed. I mean, they still have over $6m in crypto assets if they ever decide to pay their liabilities, so I don't really see a reason why not? Plus, the decision to be made is based on the "now" and not the future after all. Sure, we can invest in our future all we want and all of that, but only if we're on the safe for the present. At the very least, what I see is that it's not that they "aren't" able to withdraw but they "don't" want to withdraw their crypto funds. If the IRS actually approved the Petition before, they could've argued that it's in the agreement but sadly they didn't.
Are you saying it's a shame not to pay taxes? I haven't heard that one before 
They are rich and have enough money to pay and even after paying they are going to have 10 times more than most people since the average American family has almost no savings just loans but does it mean we should accpt the government is stealing from them?
Many of you say it's all fine because they have money. What if it were you? The tax man will first take from the rich and then from the poor, he doesn't care.
Well, it IS an agreement. Whether it be stealing or not, the moment they applied for a tax return but failed to pay it, they were bound by the agreement to pay the said amount + interest in the time frame that they didn't pay. They are rich and have enough money to pay and even after paying they are going to have 10 times more than most people since the average American family has almost no savings just loans but does it mean we should accpt the government is stealing from them?
Many of you say it's all fine because they have money. What if it were you? The tax man will first take from the rich and then from the poor, he doesn't care.
June 24, 2020, 06:09:24 PM
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
when i withdraw to fiat i pull an extra 20% or so to keep aside for taxes. i stick it in a CD or something, just so i dont touch it. tax time i cash it out and pays the man my taxes.
June 24, 2020, 04:23:39 PM
@Baofeng I’m really baffled as their tax liability was just 1 million plus interest, and they had over $7 million in crypto assets then why didn’t they sell off their crypto’s and clear their dues?, unless they had no real intention of paying their dues which is really shameful considering the fact that they had the required funds to pay off their dues.
Are you saying it's a shame not to pay taxes? I haven't heard that one before
They are rich and have enough money to pay and even after paying they are going to have 10 times more than most people since the average American family has almost no savings just loans but does it mean we should accpt the government is stealing from them?
Many of you say it's all fine because they have money. What if it were you? The tax man will first take from the rich and then from the poor, he doesn't care.
June 24, 2020, 03:57:52 PM
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
It seems pretty clear to me that this has little to do with cryptocurrency. They simply are doing whatever they can to avoid paying $1 million dollars to the government. Wouldn't you? They won't win, but at least they tried.
We know the fact that its really hard to oppose the government and if you do force yourself that way then you know that they can fucked you up hard in legal way which you cant really escape from that specially when law is on the line.
$1M tax liability is insane but its better to pay it off and stay out of the radar yet they are capable on doing so.Its really hard on their part though yet theyve been waiting for such increase but
if you are into this kind of problem then you wont really have any choice.
No matter how long and make reasons, you would still end up on the same line which is to pay on what you owe.
June 24, 2020, 03:47:33 PM
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
It seems pretty clear to me that this has little to do with cryptocurrency. They simply are doing whatever they can to avoid paying $1 million dollars to the government. Wouldn't you? They won't win, but at least they tried.
Yes, this was a failed attempt by the couple, You cannot cheat the IRS especially if you have enough money.
I think that the couple are trying to gain some time, until the market thrives and makes some profits, then they go to the interest and pay.
June 24, 2020, 03:17:26 PM
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
It seems pretty clear to me that this has little to do with cryptocurrency. They simply are doing whatever they can to avoid paying $1 million dollars to the government. Wouldn't you? They won't win, but at least they tried.
June 24, 2020, 02:33:05 PM
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
One thing is probably the reason here, they have no intention in paying their tax. I believe they decided to not to withdraw their cryptocurrency to pay for their tax thinking that it will double in value and possibly to lessen the losses from this investment.
Anyway, I hate troubles so yes I am willing to sell my crypto to pay my debt but if it is possible I'll go on settling it in months or years. Who doesn't want to wait for a crypto investment to go up ?
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
There is nothing strange in a situation like this, they owe money to the IRS and they have assets in cryptocurrency over $7 million and since they disclosed their assets to the authorities they are bound to pay the amount one way or the other and they cannot expect them to wait till the price of their asset reach a certain level so that they could earn the profit they desired. It is better to pay the money they owe rather than getting into trouble with them.Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
Indeed, institution doesn't care for people, all they care is the agreement between them and the law governing the situation. They won't wait for anything but the implementation of the law.
June 24, 2020, 02:05:54 PM
There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?
Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
There is nothing strange in a situation like this, they owe money to the IRS and they have assets in cryptocurrency over $7 million and since they disclosed their assets to the authorities they are bound to pay the amount one way or the other and they cannot expect them to wait till the price of their asset reach a certain level so that they could earn the profit they desired. It is better to pay the money they owe rather than getting into trouble with them. Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?
June 24, 2020, 12:40:30 PM
It's one of those cases wherein a simple solution can be made but is being evaded for unknown purposes. I don't know why the couple just can't be done with all the trouble and all these legal stuff by paying what they owed. And $1M in tax liabilities? Who in their sane mind would even get it that high when they could have settled their dues yearly? The IRS has every right to demand payment, especially if it deemed that the party in debt has the capability to pay it in one instance. If they are withdrawing $19k a month for whatever reason there is, why can't they withdraw even more?
This is something to be anticipated.
This is something to be anticipated.
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