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Topic: Cryptopia Judge: "1. Crypto is property 2. Even w/o keys, crypto remains yours" (Read 1201 times)

legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01


Is it me, or is this process taking a horribly long time before everything is distributed and liquidated?

The longer it takes the more it generates revenue for liquidator et al and they will make sure to exhaust any value leftover to secure their fees. That is their priority and then they see what's left for the creditor. This process can go on until the trust is wound up and can last years depending on the complexity of the case. Cryptopia seems to have taken a bit longer than the norm probably due to the amount of accounts there and a time threshold for holders to engage with the claims process.

That would be the easy answer but it wouldn't explain why Cryptopia's liquidators are dawdling, and BlockFI's are not.

I've come to understood understand that Cryptopia had many anonymous accounts for which (time-consuming) ID checks where were necessary, while BlockFI's clients are all KYC'ed. Sounds like a reasonable explanation.

edit: oh my gawd what horrible English, shame on me...
hero member
Activity: 1459
Merit: 973


Is it me, or is this process taking a horribly long time before everything is distributed and liquidated?

The longer it takes the more it generates revenue for liquidator et al and they will make sure to exhaust any value leftover to secure their fees. That is their priority and then they see what's left for the creditor. This process can go on until the trust is wound up and can last years depending on the complexity of the case. Cryptopia seems to have taken a bit longer than the norm probably due to the amount of accounts there and a time threshold for holders to engage with the claims process.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
The judges are actually right. Its like giving someont something to hold and its clear your are not selling it , neither are you using it to borrow a comodity or something in return, it doesn't become the person's own automatically, its still your private property, its just not under your custody.


Crypto been seen as a property is a step in the right direction for both crypto and the technology as its global users needs to understand the meaning of this judgement to their involvement in the crypto space

Exactly my point. Sure, bad luck if some faux exchange runs off with your crypto and good luck trying to get it back. That counts for every asset you own, though, be it crypto or fiat or other goods. Some people on the boards act as if crypto is a whole new dimension of property. It's not. The same (basic libertarian) rules of property apply.

And indeed, the same warning signs to be careful about whom you trust with your property apply. So indeed, "not your keys etc." counts as a very important real-life warning, but it's nonsense from a legal point of view.

And btw, here's another update on Cryptopia.

https://www.grantthornton.co.nz/cryptopia-limited/update-for-cryptopia-claimants-and-stakeholders-20-february-2024/

Is it me, or is this process taking a horribly long time before everything is distributed and liquidated? As a comparison, the whole BlockFI liquidation is almost over in about less than a year. Not sure why Cryptopia is taking so much longer. I guess the lack of KYC wasn't exactly accelerating the whole procedure either...

Too bad for the victims that prices are getting close to record highs again, only shortly after all crypto from the liquidations has been converted to fiat, at very low values...
sr. member
Activity: 980
Merit: 282
Catalog Websites
The judges are actually right. Its like giving someont something to hold and its clear your are not selling it , neither are you using it to borrow a comodity or something in return, it doesn't become the person's own automatically, its still your private property, its just not under your custody.


Crypto been seen as a property is a step in the right direction for both crypto and the technology as its global users needs to understand the meaning of this judgement to their involvement in the crypto space
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
The liquidators' reports are still being updated regularly. I need more time to follow-up:

https://www.grantthornton.co.nz/update-for-cryptopia-claimants-and-stakeholders-17-august-2023/

Is anyone still following this? Any of you who were affected and are participating in the distribution process?

If so, please share your experiences. These might be interesting for other forum users who were affected by other recent bankruptcies.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
There ya go again. Reports are currently published only every 6 months.

Most recent report: here.

In a nutshell:

- Cryptopia Rescue case: data abuser has been found and sentenced; the fine and all costs have been paid.
- ex-employee theft: the assets stolen by an ex-employee have been recovered; the ex-employee will be sentenced soon.
- after having sent ID requests (check out my last update a few posts higher), these IDs are currently being verified. Next step will be verification of the claims of every identified user, which is scheduled for the next few months. Last step obviously will be payday. No date set yet, though.
- also reported in the previous report and still on-going: daily management investigation. No formal info yet.

So not that much new stuff to report for now.

Next report in June.
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
Roll Eyes He may not express it well but he understands bitcoin better than this judge person. It's a new paradigm and the kiwis need to catch up.

Not your keys, not your coin. Not that hard.


this also applies to the USA for custodial wallets I think like exchanges...not your keys when you mine into the pools address or custodial wallet (you don't have seed or keys) thus only pay taxes on when i pull it out of the pool...I used to do this with litecoin pool ...let it build up in the pools wallet then report to the tax man when i yanked it out into an address I control...rather than keep track day by day

just saying

brad
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
Am I the only one still following up on this case?

The latest liquidators' report is online: read it here

TLDR? Don't worry, I read it for you, so in a nutshell:

- around 70% of almost 1 mio users have in some way interacted with the liquidator's platform
- KYC is up and running and if you had any coins on Cryptopia, this is the moment to act or lose them forever - that is, if you're prepared to KYC
- to compensate costs, 80 BTC was sold for fiat towards the end of February
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!

Not sure but I think this was a 'legit' hack where their security was dorked...

but if they have no coin...not sure this matters..won't the legal stuff just eat that up?

anyway, my impression is they have zip and the court case is to wrap up the bankruptcy in a legal manner that they were robbed and

not at fault

then again I got my stuff out just before..so have not been paying attention

brad
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
Unethical hourly rates and expenses that would make even "criminals" blush will ensure the liquidator is the only one who profits from these "victims" ......apart from the "hackers" of course Cool

Are you a NZ'er? Not sure how NZ law stipulates this, but (as I've said before) I'm quite sure liquidation rates and expenses are fixed. In general, these rates are not very competitive as they are not subject to free market rules.

No my learned friend.I am not a NZ'er but I am familiar with the unholy shennagins of legalese and the art of turning a minute into an hour and the alchemy of turning a dime into a dollar. Smiley



Well, here in Belgium, it's impossible. As said, rates and expenses are fixed. I'm not talking legal counseling in general, of course (which you might), but only liquidation fees. In general, a generalist lawyer makes less money than a good plumber (who also has a longer waiting list) over here. But the latter one doesn't get to wear the toga, rite. Tongue

Anyway, following their latest update exactly a month ago [2021-03-17], I don't think the liquidators will need a lot of alchemy to turn minutes into hours whilst processing 960,000 accounts. This also means there's 960,000 potential new claims if these liquidators counted one satoshi too much; there might be at least one among them with a minimum of legal knowledge.

That being said, the actual purpose of my thread was not to defend these people or their fees, only to keep the discussion about the legal definition of crypto burning.

Would be a nice recognition if they paid out at least part of their own rates in crypto. Cool
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
Yes, crypto is a property. Is an asset and almost every country see a property as an asset including cryptocurrency too.

Thanks for reminding me about the existence of the Ivory Tower. My mistake.


They LOST the crypto....so it is all 'moot' anyway... Sad
hero member
Activity: 1459
Merit: 973
Unethical hourly rates and expenses that would make even "criminals" blush will ensure the liquidator is the only one who profits from these "victims" ......apart from the "hackers" of course Cool

Are you a NZ'er? Not sure how NZ law stipulates this, but (as I've said before) I'm quite sure liquidation rates and expenses are fixed. In general, these rates are not very competitive as they are not subject to free market rules.

No my learned friend.I am not a NZ'er but I am familiar with the unholy shennagins of legalese and the art of turning a minute into an hour and the alchemy of turning a dime into a dollar. Smiley

legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
Unethical hourly rates and expenses that would make even "criminals" blush will ensure the liquidator is the only one who profits from these "victims" ......apart from the "hackers" of course Cool

Are you a NZ'er? Not sure how NZ law stipulates this, but (as I've said before) I'm quite sure liquidation rates and expenses are fixed. In general, these rates are not very competitive as they are not subject to free market rules.
hero member
Activity: 1138
Merit: 523
Unethical hourly rates and expenses that would make even "criminals" blush will ensure the liquidator is the only one who profits from these "victims" ......apart from the "hackers" of course Cool

On the bright side, it does like from the report that they are likely to be pursuing some form of litigation against the ownership circle. That is long overdue.

It will help establish some precedents for reference if nothing else as New Zealand law is not likely to be more than studied internationally.  The Gox case was a bloody shambles and other than that it all goes back to Pirateat40. That really isn't much of a reference point for anyone.
hero member
Activity: 1459
Merit: 973
Unethical hourly rates and expenses that would make even "criminals" blush will ensure the liquidator is the only one who profits from these "victims" ......apart from the "hackers" of course Cool
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
As I do not wish to open another thread about Cryptopia, just a short message to let you know the latest (fourth) report about the Cryptopia liquidation is online now:

https://www.grantthornton.co.nz/globalassets/1.-member-firms/new-zealand/pdfs/fourth-liquidators-report_cryptopia.pdf

A quick peak:

- continued investigation with the police, hopefully recovering the hacked coins (or not. Well, we'll see...)
- investigation concerning the daily management; I think it's the first time they talk about this, so it's remarkable (maybe it's not the first time, I'm not going to look it up) - and it's interesting in any case: if mistakes were made indeed, there could be additional revenues for victims, in the form of legal damages
- confirmation that ID requests have been sent out, as was mentioned already by by several forum members in the last days

Further on, the regular appendices concerning costs etc.
copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
N.b. that this discussion invokes some concepts from the common law of Great Little Britain and its whilom colonies.  Legal concepts and technicalities may significantly differ in non-common-law jurisdictions, such as in Continental Europe’s civil law jurisdictions.


I take the position that Bitcoin is a bearer asset.  And though I can’t be sure without reading the opinion, from the short description in OP, it appears there is a legal nuance that others have missed here:

Quote
Today 8 April 2020 Justice Gendall delivered his judgement, finding firstly cryptocurrencies are “property” within the definition outlined in s2 of the Companies Act 1993 and secondly that account holders cryptocurrency were held on multiple trusts, separated by individual crypto-asset type. This means that the cryptocurrencies are beneficially owned by the account holders and are not assets of the company.

Bearer assets such as cash, gold bullion, or old-fashioned bearer bonds can be held in trust for the benefit (“beneficial ownership”) of another.  This neither changes the nature of the bearer asset, nor absolves the trustee of legally enforceable fiduciary duties to the beneficiary.  Much as I can tell from the above snippet, the judge in this case seems to have imposed a constructive trust on the coins.

The word “beneficial” is key here!  A beneficial owner is not necessarily the titular owner.  On my educated guess from reading between the lines, I think that the court in this case seems to have ruled (or at least strongly implied) that, in substantial effect, possession of the keys is titular ownership.  The gravamen of the ruling would thus concur with I have been saying all along:

If you are a custodial exchange, etc., then you may be holding title to that Bitcoin as a nominee, or (quite arguably) a bailee, or some other legal concept which may be logical to apply.  However, account-holders at custodial exchanges are not the titular owners of any Bitcoin at all, in my opinion.  If you don’t have the private keys, then it is not your Bitcoin:  It is somebody else’s Bitcoin; and that somebody else, the titular owner of the Bitcoin, has contractually agreed to let you excercise beneficial ownership of some sort.

My suggestion of a contract-law theory would be legally distinguishable from the apparent trust-law theory in this judge’s ruling; but it would have a similar practical effect.  It is fully compatible with the “not your keys, not your coins” Bitcoin Weltanschauung.



To forum users, the nature of the argument may be more obvious if you consider the PGP-signed obligations of a forum escrow agent.  The escrow agent is holding the coins.  The coins are not, however, an “asset” of the escrow agent, but rather, a liability.  (It is why escrow agents get paid fees...)

If an escrow agent betrays his duties, then—well, good luck retrieving the coins with red-trust “judgments”!  —Similarly in different degree as for court judgments against insolvent exchanges.  That is the meaning of “not your keys, not your coins.”

any statutory precedent is meaningless if it cannot be enforced (and hence such things are in no way any kind of law at all).

Technical nitpick, because I am technical:  As you subsequently seem to imply, it is a judicial precedent, not statutory.

Much though I am sympathetic to this statement in principle, there will always be tension between the desires of those who would govern, and the practical limitations on their power.  Bitcoin directly exploits this tension.  In an era when governments and their owners, the banks have been attempting to replace all bearer assets with identity-based assets, Bitcoin’s nature as a bearer asset pushes us back toward the wiser, freer era of bullion, cash notes, and bearer bonds—with the added benefit that Bitcoin can be transferred around the world with the press of a button.

For better or for worse, courts will attempt to adjudicate disputes over the allegedly proper ownership of bearer assets.  As you say, it comes down to a question of enforceability.

Possession is nine-tenths of the law.  Always has been, always will be!  Possession of the keys equals possession of the coins.  Bearer asset.

Knowing Bitcoin private keys and in turn the blockchain enforcing their ownership are a law unto themselves, far more powerful than any judicial or statutory pronouncements. that was Satoshi's clear intention from the very start

I like.

It is the anarchy of those who love order, and impose order first on themselves:  They who live by honour and not law.  They must become laws unto themselves.  [...]  You are a law unto yourself.  [...]  Be your own authority.


Context stripped, because it’s funnier this way:
Would you wander in and call HM Queen 'property'?
Or that Trump fella?

Do you really want to ask me that question?  ;-)

Seriously, they are both property:  Both are owned by the banks.  “HM Queen” of Great Little Britain is property of the Bank of England, and the “President” of those whilom American colonies is property of the Federal Reserve.  Both nominal owners negotiate the finer details of global International governance through the BIS, IMF, et al.

Did you say “sovereign”?  Sorry, that concept is obsolete—not modern!  Anyway...


Most important things imho:
* KYC will be needed in the claims process
* no private coins have been used to pay off debts (yet?)
* returns will be in crypto where possible (which is logical in light of the judgment in the OP)

* KYC = WTF

For the sake of argument, pretend that the judgment were about gold coins held in a depository that went bankrupt.  Of course, it is logical that the gold itself should be returned—unless it could not be recovered.  In the latter case, it would be better to attempt recovering some value than none at all.
hero member
Activity: 2548
Merit: 950
fly or die
Yeah this entity is headed by a known shady character, asking for money from cryptopia's users, definitely looks like a scam to me.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1059
nutildah-III / NFT2021-04-01
(...)

I won't even bother calculating how much value these 344BTC have today... Pure tragedy...

New liquidators' report is coming in December. I do not know how many people are interested in the unfolding of this liquidation, but since I don't think there's that much people involved or interested on these boards, I'm not going to open a separate thread for the liquidation, and simply keep on posting my comments (if any) in this thread.

Little word of warning: it seems the Court administration has made an error and communicated personal information of Cryptopia users to a third-party sort-of lobby group called "Cryptopia Rescue". It is possible these people have received contact info, info about your holdings and assets etc.

Without making any judgment about the trustworthiness of this "Cryptopia Rescue", people should be careful when they are being contacted by this group, possibly asking for financial support and to know that they've obtained your info because of a mistake in the NZ Court.


Source here.

For this warning, I will probably open a scam alert thread somewhere in the Reputation board.

Looks like governments f*ck up everywhere all around the world.
hero member
Activity: 2548
Merit: 950
fly or die
I think forks are a bit of a special case, because it's a completely separate entity that decides to give assets to crypto hodlers. It creates all kinds of problems, not just legal ones. An exchange has a cold wallet for exemple, where you want it to have a significant amount of assets, in a secure way. Each time there is a fork/airdrop like that, it would need to risk that cold wallet's keys to be able to access the new coins.

Your point of view was confirmed in this judgment a few months ago, which stated: "The Court would be imposing a major new duty on all cryptocurrency exchanges (...) to affirmatively honor every single bitcoin fork."

Thanks for the update. I've seen the HEX airdrop has in fact considered this, so BTC held in multisig wallets were not eligible for example.

Also if no private coins have been used, does that mean the site had enough assets to pay so far ?

It looks more and more as if Cryptopia could have survived this easily instead of folding, I guess the owners didn't want the legal hassles.
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