Cult of hoarding | Bitcointalksearch.org

hellscabane

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Quote from: podyx on February 04, 2014, 12:43:28 PM

Quote from: hellscabane on February 04, 2014, 12:01:23 PM

Yes, this is one of the biggest issues. Each percentage of growth requires even more and more money to flow into the system, compound this with about 3600 new BTC coming into existence each day and the money needed for growth starts to loom large. As an example, just for prices to stay the same this month, we would need over $50M in new value to enter the system (assuming that about 1/3rd of coins are just simply off the market). Mind you though, the new value doesn't have to come in the form of fiat; it could come in other forms. But to acquire $50M each month isn't something so easy. And remember, this is just to maintain the price. Growth would require proportionally greater and greater amounts of value.

$50mil a month is nothing for bill gates and that is ONE person

there is plenty of money out there, believe me

Of course there is plenty money out there. (The US M2 Money Supply is at over $10 Trillion.) The trick is convincing people to put money into BTC over, let's say, finding treatments for cancer (since you used Bill Gates as an example). Gates definitely has no trouble donating billions of USD to charity, but I'm fairly confident that he would be significantly more hesitant putting money into BTC. Just because there is money out there doesn't mean it's going to go into the bucket that you think it could go in to.

podyx

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Quote from: hellscabane on February 04, 2014, 12:01:23 PM

Quote from: skivrmt on February 01, 2014, 09:31:34 PM

Quote from: johnyj on February 01, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

That is a -very- big if. Yes we've done it in the past. A couple of times over.

I hope it continues but it's certainly going to be tougher each year as more money needs to flow into Bitcoin than ever before for any price appreciation.

Yes, this is one of the biggest issues. Each percentage of growth requires even more and more money to flow into the system, compound this with about 3600 new BTC coming into existence each day and the money needed for growth starts to loom large. As an example, just for prices to stay the same this month, we would need over $50M in new value to enter the system (assuming that about 1/3rd of coins are just simply off the market). Mind you though, the new value doesn't have to come in the form of fiat; it could come in other forms. But to acquire $50M each month isn't something so easy. And remember, this is just to maintain the price. Growth would require proportionally greater and greater amounts of value.

$50mil a month is nothing for bill gates and that is ONE person

there is plenty of money out there, believe me

hellscabane

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Activity: 896

Merit: 1000

Quote from: skivrmt on February 01, 2014, 09:31:34 PM

Quote from: johnyj on February 01, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

That is a -very- big if. Yes we've done it in the past. A couple of times over.

I hope it continues but it's certainly going to be tougher each year as more money needs to flow into Bitcoin than ever before for any price appreciation.

Yes, this is one of the biggest issues. Each percentage of growth requires even more and more money to flow into the system, compound this with about 3600 new BTC coming into existence each day and the money needed for growth starts to loom large. As an example, just for prices to stay the same this month, we would need over $50M in new value to enter the system (assuming that about 1/3rd of coins are just simply off the market). Mind you though, the new value doesn't have to come in the form of fiat; it could come in other forms. But to acquire $50M each month isn't something so easy. And remember, this is just to maintain the price. Growth would require proportionally greater and greater amounts of value.

nobbynobbynoob

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Annuit cœptis humanae libertas

Whatever the price is doing, bitcoiners scream in unison: HOADR! Grin

1Pakis

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I hodling until somebody can offer me something else that worthless fiat

Timetwister

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Quote from: hilariousandco on January 30, 2014, 08:21:38 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on January 30, 2014, 08:04:07 AM

Not only we need more people accepting them as a payment method, but also more ways to invest them. If in the future it becomes easy to invest in something like a stock market, there will be less hoarding, and more capital used to increase productivity.

What do you mean by invest? I'd say it's easier to buy into Bitcoins than it is in shares.

Invest the bitcoins, not fiat in bitcoins.

Whtwabbit

sr. member

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Quote from: johnyj on February 01, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

That would be Gresham's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

pbody

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Bitcoin will stop increasing in price by tenfold a year and people will start spending it. By that point just about everyone will except bitcoin and I will have enough bitcoin to retire on. So I guess Im hodling for life.

billyjoeallen

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Hide your women

Quote from: johnyj on February 01, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

Obviously the price is driven by credit, but the fiat printing presses and artificially low interest rates are likely to continue until hyperinflation. Janet Yellen is Chair of the Fed and it is clear there is no political will to allow a meaningful correction. Credit markets are so screwed up that they CANNOT be normalized. It's like having a patient that is too sick to survive the life-saving surgery he needs. The point of no return occurred in 2008 with the housing market crash. Interest rates are too low to allow capital formation, so the only way to keep the ponziconomy going is to double down on stupid and take real interest rates negative. I myself have THREE zero APR credit cards. I could easily pay them off by selling my bitcoin holdings, by why? I sell enough to make the minimum payments and wait for the inevitable governmental stupidity to drive the BTC price higher. I love my country and I want it to succeed, so this is a hedge bet. If I loose, everybody wins which means I win too. I win either way.

Prolifik

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I will always hoard one of the 21 million bitcoins.

At least until the price is $1,000,000.00 a coin.

skivrmt

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Quote from: johnyj on February 01, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

That is a -very- big if. Yes we've done it in the past. A couple of times over.

I hope it continues but it's certainly going to be tougher each year as more money needs to flow into Bitcoin than ever before for any price appreciation.

johnyj

legendary

Activity: 1988

Merit: 1012

Beyond Imagination

As long as bitcoin appreciate more than 50% per year, it is very natural to just take a consumer loan with 8% interest, and spend the loan instead of coins. Or even take a loan to buy coins if it goes mainstream, and that will make the hoarding more severe and price appreciation more crazy

Spending the inflative money and saving the deflative money, make perfect sense. I'm sure somebody is already doing this

Of course if the price is driven by credit money like housing, then it will become dangerous. Spending coins to buy goods/services will not affect exchange rate that much, but you always need fiat money to pay back the loan. When there is a fiat money liquidity problem, the exchange price will crash. Currently the liquidity is not a problem, but who knows when all the fiat money has been drained by bitcoins

Sonny

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Activity: 868

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Quote from: hilariousandco on January 31, 2014, 10:36:37 AM

Quote from: miketonic on January 31, 2014, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: BitDreams on January 30, 2014, 07:22:46 PM

I am also Hoadring. Hoardring will make many savers around the world.

One day we will look around and where we see a debtor today, we will instead see a saver tomorrow. Many people with assets instead of slaves with undeserved burdens.

Every hoadrer has a price and eventually they spedn their Bitcoins. The point of the game is to eventually disperse your coins before they become lost to the blockchain.

I agree on this. Even if the price keeps climbing, people will spend their coins in some minor downturn in fear of coins losing all their value.

I'm hodling and I don't have a price. I just want more mainstream adoption and be able to spend them on things I actually want.

Hodl forever? lol
When you decide to spend bitcoin instead of fiat, it is like you sell the bitcoin Tongue

hilariousandco

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Quote from: miketonic on January 31, 2014, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: BitDreams on January 30, 2014, 07:22:46 PM

I am also Hoadring. Hoardring will make many savers around the world.

One day we will look around and where we see a debtor today, we will instead see a saver tomorrow. Many people with assets instead of slaves with undeserved burdens.

Every hoadrer has a price and eventually they spedn their Bitcoins. The point of the game is to eventually disperse your coins before they become lost to the blockchain.

I agree on this. Even if the price keeps climbing, people will spend their coins in some minor downturn in fear of coins losing all their value.

I'm hodling and I don't have a price. I just want more mainstream adoption and be able to spend them on things I actually want.

toomsie

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Better computers came out every year. It doesn't mean people put of buying computer indefinately

miketonic

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Quote from: BitDreams on January 30, 2014, 07:22:46 PM

I am also Hoadring. Hoardring will make many savers around the world.

One day we will look around and where we see a debtor today, we will instead see a saver tomorrow. Many people with assets instead of slaves with undeserved burdens.

Every hoadrer has a price and eventually they spedn their Bitcoins. The point of the game is to eventually disperse your coins before they become lost to the blockchain.

I agree on this. Even if the price keeps climbing, people will spend their coins in some minor downturn in fear of coins losing all their value.

hilariousandco

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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Quote from: bitgeek on January 30, 2014, 08:14:08 PM

Quote from: guybrushthreepwood on January 29, 2014, 02:00:09 PM

IF you want to save and spend you can always buy Bitcoins especially to purchase something. that way you can do your bit to promote the currency of the coin whilst still saving.

Yeah, I would spend some but there's so little acceptance now, that it's just better to hold (or hodl).

Well if you want to buy something from a store that accepts Bitcoin, go out of your way to buy it in Bitcoin and promote the use of the currency. It's on all our interests to do so.

Anon136

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