Topic: Current Bitmain Hardware Dump 10/13/19. Very ugly at 10c kWh to ROI Ever! POLL! (Read 567 times)

If it is your second year that is a lie. All my S9's ROI within 2 months when I got them 2 years ago due to price hike...

Also about 5nm you don't just press print designing the chip is a long process and the technology to make 5nm with a high yield is not that of production quality right now. Why do you think intel and samsung are not doing it right now and they are a massive foundry.

None of the ones that I've been told about have replied by rate. I too have heard about this, but in my experience, back in the day when I could fine such, you needed to have 15-50 miners, some with setup fees of $50 per miner. Again, likely not as harsh now for setup, but still. I have friends that have been locked in or grandfathered in at 8c kWh. They had their data hall raise their fee to 9.5c kWh and they are not giving up their spot. Also, a lot of the 6c kWh have no remote access and very, very sh*ty support. Or again, so it was when I looked 6 months to a year ago for comparisons.

Just may-be the way it is for small miners now. Just saying, I've had one reply (see the thread for the messages above) out of 7 email questions on REAL rates.

Brad

There are indeed Major companies that have rates of .06c in usa all in with zero other fees and no min on miners you just gotta look around.

I resemble that remark. But again...really..move stuff to Canaday for a say $120 buck savings for a WHOLE 6 months? (see previous posts) With these equipment prices? With rising electric prices for winter rates in the USA from last winter? (Informally, I've been told by a couple of people about 1.5c kWh rise in price on some data halls so far). Then add the WOW rising difficulty and the fact that Bitmain is STILL selling out at what I consider 1/3 too high a price on frigging pre-orders for crying out loud! Then the kiss of death. Add the 27.6% Tariff on any Chinese ASIC miner from China with of course shipping to boot. Add altcoin prices and BTC prices to above and we are well and truly f*ck*d! Well, if once. we were a boat sailing our ASIC's on the Crypto Ocean...now we are a Submarine...limping to ground ourselves on the beach!

I was offered an S9 with $32 buck shipping at $180 the other day. An S9j at $225 with $32 shipping also. Neither makes a bit of sense unless you have cheap electric and are in dire need of a space heater at your say, office cubicle at work, on the bosses dime. I'm so far out of this I'm in another planet!

Man, what a cluster!

Brad

I think it's time for me, and Searing, to think of ourselves as "coal miners" where we are being put out of work by the march to automation, or in this case "industrialization".

Maybe we should appeal to Bitmain to "End the war on home mining!" 

Well, looking at the above using the current prices...for a 6-month plan...the difference from what I can tell paying on their 6-month plan is about $120 vs around 9.5-10c kWh and the rate above mentioned of 0.00735 above....(check my math) ballpark figure, however, we are talking about say $240 a year or $20 bucks a month average more or less, kinda sorta..on the above 6-month plan...I mean really? Big friggin whoop. So the elephant in the room is the cost of mining equipment and tariff and of course cost of a coin (BTC) vs BTC out and of course risk...when contemplating getting a miner. Again, at $120 in electric for 6 months...stay frigging away!

So from what I can tell, this thread and me being the OP is likely MOOT...on this topic..even more so when you add the tariff...likely we need ASIC's of the 5nm or 3nm variety well into 2020 before anyone can make a case for mining anymore. Assuming the price of BTC  is back to say $15k vs difficulty and such to likely even make that do'able for the small miner folk.

So, from a new miner perspective and no tariff by say Saturday...for the cost savings talked about....you're a lot better off just HODL'ing coin now than at any time in the past. With pre-orders of 2-4 months, no consequences for late delivery, the likelihood that the BTC will pump that you spent on a miner even without the tariff...there are just too many variables for this to make any sense...With electric likely being the lamest barrier of 2c-3c differences as part of this whole non-profit and likely to stay non-profit mining attempt of anybody to ROI well into the future. It is as risky a play as I've ever seen since I got into mining in 2013. So again, eye-opening that 2-3c kWh makes so little difference in the whole risk equation of getting ASIC equipment at this time as to be laughable. So anyway, hopefully, this thread is 'helpful' with options and its 2-3c kWh differences in price..to somebody that may be down the block from some data hall at a lower rate or nearby or something. But again, tossed in the blender of all the reasons not to buy... these savings don't amount to beans in even running ASIC's you already own..much less new ASIC's. So anyway, ASIC drought because of this or folk will continue to buy overpriced pre-order ASIC's into the future on a hope and a prayer that price of BTC/Crypto will save their ROI. I find this unlikely indeed.

So anyway, for a frigging $120 a month say, the difference for a 6-month plan in excess..that is the least of everyone's problem with any type of ASIC mining IMHO. So on reflection on above, 'sitting on hands' and 'covering ears' in horror is probably the best option to take on mining anything well into 2020 at least! This whole electricity price question is pretty lame in comparison to all the above. So sad, I really, really, liked ASIC mining. Then again, I used to like 'fast women' as well. Both are unlikely to work out and cost a lot of $$$...so I'd recommend folk pass and look at the electric savings we are talking about in the proper context. That context as I see it now, is we are utterly screwed to ASIC mine as small fry WELL into 2020 and perhaps 2021 or hell, perhaps never. I am distraught.

(sheesh...the above is sooooooo ugly)

end of rant

Brad

If I had a 10% failure rate inside 2 years for gear I built, I'd probably quit the business. 10% failures is unacceptable. 1% failures is already irritating.

Y'all almost make me wish I had enough money to build my own solar array and circle back around to hosting. My facility (8.9c flat rate, no contract, free VPN and the like) officially turned off on October 1.

Cryptoboreas has GREAT service and reliability and the cheapest rates in North America...but ALL S9's are now mining at a loss.
My S9's have not even reached roi nearing their second birthday. they will be taken offline very soon.
They performed rather well actually out of 27 S9's with 81 boards I only had 8 boards and two controllers and 2 fans die on me...10% failure rate over 20 months.

No, 7.07c total including the 5% tax.

For the 2385W S17, it was 2.385kW * 720hours * $0.065 + $4.00 = $115.62 per month.  With the tax that's $121.40.

So $121.40/720hours/2.385kW = $0.0707/kWh

It was $10 setup fee per miner, and I believe there was a $10 fee to disconnect and pack up your miner if you don't renew. So if you only do 6 months, then the total would come out to 7.26c/kWh with the $10 setup, and $10 disconnect fees included.

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Cryptoboreas is just $70CAD per kW per month, with no other fees. The current exchange rate is $0.7556 USD/CAD, so it comes out to $52.89 /kW/month.

So that is $52.89/720 hours = $0.0735USD/kWh

So it is 7.07c kWh and PLUS the monthly fee per miner?

Just double-checking.

Still confused. But somewhat closer.

Brad

Not sure that any of these big farms would be paying published rates. I'd guess they all most likely negotiate a rate.

I dug up a quote I got from Miningsky last month for 10 S17s. These prices are in USD. They said they had to charge me 5% tax, so after the tax it was 7.07c/kWh. Apparently it is possible to get that 5% back if you are not a Canadian resident, but I didn't look into that.

This is from the data hall MiningSky Ltd from BC Hydro in Canada.

Anyone want to translate the following data hall stuff below. Yes, this relates to Bitmain profitability, thus this as an aside, on this thread, thus I deem it legit.

https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/transmission_rate.html

From what I can tell it comes out to 9.5c kWh complete? Or is this Canadian $$$? or am I utterly off the mark?

Thanks. Befuddled on above.

Brad

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See above on post on what you think about that for pricing.

But I've not found Any Data Hall, WITHOUT hidden costs, in which it comes out to less than 9.5c kWh. Seems folks are raising the electric prices as BTC value and Data Hall profits go down. So find someone with a 'clear' answer and miners will likely flock to their door.

Thus, my whining on here, every time I go to pull the trigger (or used to before the 27.6% tariff in the USA back before) on further research the data halls that claimed 6-7c kWh after fees/setup/etc were really 9-9.5c kWh...and I am from hearsay, hearing from others that the prices have gone up. I have one buddy who is grandfathered in at 8c kWh in Colorado (no new folk for a year at the place is full) that just had his bumped to 9.5c kWh. I guess utility electric company prices move onward and upward regardless of miner success. Anyway, find something on here. I'd settle for someone trustworthy in east Tim Buck Too...and a decent price with some decent safeguards...just not hearing anything.

Back to the main thrust, I suppose someone on Bitcointalk will find a 6c kWh data hall that would take small miner me. At that point, the 27.6% tariff rears its head and I would be despondent on finding such and having no logical way to mine there at Bitman or other prices anyway with the tariff. Perhaps I am better off ignorant and as you say thinking 10c kWh is the likely outcome as long as a tariff is around. I'd hate to be in the position to mine again only to find out the tariff alone killed my ASIC dreams! (so I addicted as an ASIC miner I was/am/is...so confused)

later

Brad

10 cent power used to be the cutoff for mining.

It is now more like 6 cent power.

Bigger industrial units  at 3000+ watts drive mining into the go big or go home camp.

Or  mod an s-9 as a space heater in the winter point it at solo.ckpool and hope.

here is hoping:

http://solo.ckpool.org/users/146UJM5kgzLVUV23CXCf33KQKHckoX1gx3

Two thoughts, whatever mine are worth..
That OP considers 10c a deserving electricity price to mine at gives me the feeling they've a lot more research to do, I mean that constructively not entirely dismissively!

That I am new myself (and couldnt even work out how to vote in the poll) but I think OP is very much correct that Bitmain is dirty tactics through and through. However the article is very strange, Jihan is no longer CEO for example, at least I thought that was the case? Also 5 nanometer just sounds like nonsense for now?

Say, If you ordered Bitmain miners shipped to one location, but now want them (same miners) to be shipped to ANOTHER location, can you change it (the destination address) on the order, or not?

EDIT: I see that Bitmain says-NOT.

BTW, I looked at the numbers and found that it is not possible to make more btc that you spent on these, tax or no tax.
For example: the 50 th machine cost $2650 shipped, which is 0.32 BTC
However, coinmarket cap projects just 0.35 produced (not profit) in a year and even these calculations are wrong.
why? Because we have halving in 7 mo or so, so last 5 mo of the year would be half (of production).
Therefore it is more like 0.21+0.075=0.285 btc maximum (produced) in a year.
0.285 is less than 0.32

...and this is BEFORE counting electricity, difficulty increase, tax, etc.

The only way is to count in dollars and hope for a dollar price increase.
if that happens, dollar profit might be possible.

The 27.6% hold us all back in the USA.

I would love to host two s17s in Canada

I think right now is a pretty good time to be shopping for hosting. They are losing tons of S9s, and may be willing to make a deal to replace them.

Also, I believe you only have to pay 5% tax to import gear into Canada, and shipping is pretty much the same as to USA. The only issue is if you run into problems you're faced with either quickly finding another host in Canada or paying the 27.6% to get the gear shipped to you (on top of the 5% you already paid).

Not practical in the upper midwest (Minnesota). Xcel Utilities will only pay a maximum of OVER 10% of your average monthly use based on your past year. So if my average monthly use is $60 for last year, that would be $66 bucks. Any amount above that average made by solar panels goes into the meter and Xcel sells all excess from everyone over dumped by solar into the meter at spec electric prices..and make a killing. Also they currently claim that my electric rate is 8.79c kWh.

In reality after fees, last month's usage it was 17.29c per kWh. Maybe my winter rates may be 15c kWh. My current data hall rates for ONE S9i thru buddy (Maxumark) is 10c kWh. So, I did pressure Xcel and find out of a large rooftop flat dormer on the roof. I could split it. 2 panels. Say use 1kw a month out of 9kw a month for Xcel to a panel of my own. and that would leave 8kw for my own use. With Minnesota and Night and All ...say average I would have MAYBE 4kw average maybe I could draw upon? Maybe? That would be what maybe 2 s9i's or so underclocked?

The price, last I looked with solar rebates this year was 21K (from 29k) to put up the above mentioned 9k solar setup complete. But rebates are going away end of 2019. All I think? Also 30% tariff on Chinese Solar Panels (maybe on top of regular tariffs as well? could it really be 57.6% with fees). Beyond dorked we are on this idea.

This does not work on so many levels as more or less impossible to justify for my home electric use. Maybe with a hobby farm or something, but as it is it is a no-go in a big way. My brother however put up a 20kw setup 7 years ago the utilities had to grandfather him in..he makes $250 to $300 a month profit I think. None of this 10% limit crap. Amazing how once being an entrepreneur works dandy in 2012 or so now the big guys come along in 2019 and change the rules to be more centralized an't it? You can't make money as a utility if every homeowner can take a chance and overbuild by 1/3 and sell the electric back. Thus change the laws and keep the Ad's going on T.V. for your Xcel centralized wind and solar farms here in Minnesota along with Nuclear. Got to keep all the marbles, don't ya know. No profit in this decentralized approach if you are a utility.

So no go. Indeed, by next year it will be a hell no, never can be done no-go, even if you use a lot more electric than I use. Regulation has killed this idea of using solar in this part of the country deader than dead.

Anyone have a nice 6c kWh solar farm someplace I can sneak a few miners in, let me know. I still may only be breaking even at these prices and with the tariff but on hope and prayer for 2020 future of BTC/halving/prices...I might take that action. By my lonesome in Minnesota with above stuff going on...er not so much.

later

Brad

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I sent them all a message. I will post on here what the actual real price is dividing your FULL KW and any monthly fees by the bill paid each month. And/or if they vary the bill each month vs their on spec electric costs on market. (Some data halls due such). We will see. But at 7.5c kWh, I'm assuming this is the same more or less game that I tried to find out last year. Which came out close to 10c kWh with shipping of units and setup costs per unit and the rest per monthly bill on a 6-month contract and/or 12-month contract complete. When you add it all up, it came to around 9.5c to 10c kWh. That is from those who actually would do the math for me legitimately. 1/2 just gave me the kWh and did not answer the rest of it in any manner I was satisfied with.

Hopefully, times have changed and I am surprised. Still, have the frigging 27.6% tariff with shipping to contend with on new equipment, that may kill this information I may get anyway. But I'm bored, so I sent them a quick note, to all of the above links you mention. We will see. (Did not bother with the 50 miner minimum one..that would be silly)

Brad

Searing what are your options for Solar Panels? Hydro? Wind?

Anything is better nothing 

I am naive to still believe it can be done (*cough, with a lot of sacrifices) at ones home, but it depends a lot on one's circumstances, ofc

The lowest I've seen recently for small quantities are all-in rates between 7c and 7.5c /kWh. If you want to host 50-100 miners, you can find rates between 5c and 6c.

For US-based people who want to buy new gear, I think the best deal right now is to import gear directly to a host in Canada.

I'm not endorsing any of these, but here are some options I've found:

For Canada, both of these are below 7.5c/kWh

http://www.cryptoboreas.com/
https://miningsky.com/

In the US

https://www.valuehash.com/
https://onwatt.io/


The only one listed above I've had experience with is Valuehash. I have had miners hosted with them for about 1.5 years without any issues.

I also saw an offer from https://miningstore.com for 5.9c/kWh with 50 miner minimum.