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Topic: David Friedman and Bitcoin (Read 8004 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
March 28, 2014, 09:28:56 AM
#68
Bitcoin and unregulated financial markets just leads to massive scamming.
And so does your mom.
No, but seriously, finance is massive scamming de facto.  Bitcoin just has different rules.

that's a real nuanced perspective you bring to the table right there Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
Bitcorns
March 28, 2014, 09:26:56 AM
#67
Bitcoin and unregulated financial markets just leads to massive scamming.
And so does your mom.
No, but seriously, finance is massive scamming de facto.  Bitcoin just has different rules.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
March 28, 2014, 09:21:51 AM
#66
“Bitcoin takes the machinery of freedom…” - That’s exactly the main concept of bitcoin; to give us the freedom in terms of financial use. Gamblers are already utilizing this freedom by playing in bitcoin casino like Betcoin™.
The critical moment now, BTC is developing but a lot of people are using BTC to gambling, money laundering and so on some bad aspects, it will affect the BTC status in the people heart
member
Activity: 200
Merit: 10
https://rangersprotocol.com/
March 28, 2014, 09:07:38 AM
#65
“Bitcoin takes the machinery of freedom…” - That’s exactly the main concept of bitcoin; to give us the freedom in terms of financial use. Gamblers are already utilizing this freedom by playing in bitcoin casino like Betcoin™.
legendary
Activity: 1227
Merit: 1000
March 12, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
#64
The Machinery Of Freedom: Illustrated summary
http://youtu.be/jTYkdEU_B4o



A lot of ideas on how to resolve disputes in the Bitcoin world... and on the web in general.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 506
February 16, 2013, 04:59:10 AM
#63
@ Cypherdoc.  Thanks for this link.  Prior to this article I'd not come across credible counterarguments having the potential to discredit some of the seemingly sound arguments for the role of regulation as primary cause of the 2008 credit crunch.  I'm yet to be convinced but this looks like it leads to some very interesting commentaries and analyses.  It amuses me that my first reaction is still disappointment when I come across something that may undermine some of my favourite ideas and beliefs!  However, these days it is usually closely followed by excitement at the potential to learn and understand better so thanks again.  I'll take some time researching and rethinking my position on this in due course.

Tf
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
February 15, 2013, 11:53:50 PM
#62
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDK-hLOqZZk

He gives his stance on bitcoin @ 38:40

Good stuff on fractional reserve banking too. All round interesting interview.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 13, 2013, 08:18:51 PM
#61
Butler - The Financial Crisis: Blame Governments, Not Bankers - from the IEA publication Verdict on the Crash, Edited by Philip Booth
i think that is ridiculous.  when there comes a question as to who to blame, ask yourself, where did all the money go?

politicians make what, a couple hundred thousand a year?  what does Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein make?  how many hundreds of million a year let alone all the ancillary bonuses in the millions to investment bankers on Wall St? 

tell me who is in control.

Banks bought gov't because it's a single point of failure. Control government, control the laws, and so on down the line. At the same time, there are more than enough intangible benefits politicians gain to make their six figure salaries just a symbolic token.

With regard to the fiscal calamity: it takes two to tango, and the song name was collusion. Pols want the bankers to help them gain more (through funding), and the bankers want the pols to help them gain more (through legislation).

likewise The Fed is a single point of control.  who setup The Fed?  why bankers of course; in the middle of the night on Christmas Eve 1913.  The Creature of Jekyll Island is a great book btw.

insert Wimp X as head of The Fed and you're good to go.  there is no way that one person can withstand the pressure applied by a dozen bank CEO's.  we know, without a doubt, who Bernanke was on the phone with during the depths of the crisis and how many times.  we thus know exactly what the CEO's were "recommending"; BAILOUTS or ARMAGEDDON.  take your choice Ben.

The Fed is the mothership that pretends to oversee all its Baby Banks (red haired trouble makers).  yet it has its tentacles/blood funnel jammed directly down the throat of the US Treasury/taxpayer as some sort of quasi-governmental organization.  what a joke.

THIS is why Bitcoin is resonating so greatly with the global population.  We all know now.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
February 13, 2013, 06:20:13 PM
#60
I'm liking that the "monetary freedom" meme is gaining traction ... amongst thinkers and talkers, etc.

The regulatory capture provided to the fed. res. banking system with their monopoly money, aka constitution-cheating contract law debt notes, is a major source for all the other problems, in many areas of society.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 13, 2013, 06:13:37 PM
#59
...

i think that is ridiculous.  when there comes a question as to who to blame, ask yourself, where did all the money go?

politicians make what, a couple hundred thousand a year?  what does Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein make?  how many hundreds of million a year let alone all the ancillary bonuses in the millions to investment bankers on Wall St?  

tell me who is in control.
If your only criterion for blame is the beneficiary then I can see how you would conclude the bankers are proportionally immensely more responsible for the problems than the politicians.  But some of these big bankers and the politicians were (are) in each others' pockets - at least if looking back at how Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer (prior to becoming Prime Minister) in the UK behaved is anything to go by.  These politicians want power; and to do that their parties need funders.  From what I understand it's even worse in the US.  But that you seem so incredulous that policies brought in for popular political gain, followed by more to try and solve the unforeseen problems of the first, followed by more to try and solve those etc. would leave us in such a precarious position is surprising to me.  In the UK they're doing it again.  Bringing in policies to guarantee first time buyers mortgages to encourage banks to lend, thus starting the balmy process once again.

I do believe it is a myth that entirely free markets would provide the mechanism to banish boom and bust to the history books but without all the laws and protectionism both preventing newcomers from entering the market and from irresponsible establishments reaping the consequences of their ridiculous risks - all the fault of politicians - and those who vote them into power - I can not believe we would not be much better off.

here in the US we have over 1000 financial industry lobbyists, most of them former politicians the number of which dwarf any other industry, running around The Hill pushing the banking industries agenda and promising future corner office jobs on Wall St.  What would you expect the politicians to do, ignore them?  perhaps this is why your politicians are willing to ram home another generation of mortgage guarantees to home buyers?

the corruption of money is what has enabled this whole mess on a global basis.  and guess who owns the money/printing press?
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
February 13, 2013, 06:12:17 PM
#58
Butler - The Financial Crisis: Blame Governments, Not Bankers - from the IEA publication Verdict on the Crash, Edited by Philip Booth
i think that is ridiculous.  when there comes a question as to who to blame, ask yourself, where did all the money go?

politicians make what, a couple hundred thousand a year?  what does Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein make?  how many hundreds of million a year let alone all the ancillary bonuses in the millions to investment bankers on Wall St? 

tell me who is in control.

Banks bought gov't because it's a single point of failure. Control government, control the laws, and so on down the line. At the same time, there are more than enough intangible benefits politicians gain to make their six figure salaries just a symbolic token.

With regard to the fiscal calamity: it takes two to tango, and the song name was collusion. Pols want the bankers to help them gain more (through funding), and the bankers want the pols to help them gain more (through legislation).
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 506
February 13, 2013, 05:44:20 PM
#57
...

i think that is ridiculous.  when there comes a question as to who to blame, ask yourself, where did all the money go?

politicians make what, a couple hundred thousand a year?  what does Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein make?  how many hundreds of million a year let alone all the ancillary bonuses in the millions to investment bankers on Wall St? 

tell me who is in control.
If your only criterion for blame is the beneficiary then I can see how you would conclude the bankers are proportionally immensely more responsible for the problems than the politicians.  But some of these big bankers and the politicians were (are) in each others' pockets - at least if looking back at how Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer (prior to becoming Prime Minister) in the UK behaved is anything to go by.  These politicians want power; and to do that their parties need funders.  From what I understand it's even worse in the US.  But that you seem so incredulous that policies brought in for popular political gain, followed by more to try and solve the unforeseen problems of the first, followed by more to try and solve those etc. would leave us in such a precarious position is surprising to me.  In the UK they're doing it again.  Bringing in policies to guarantee first time buyers mortgages to encourage banks to lend, thus starting the balmy process once again.

I do believe it is a myth that entirely free markets would provide the mechanism to banish boom and bust to the history books but without all the laws and protectionism both preventing newcomers from entering the market and from irresponsible establishments reaping the consequences of their ridiculous risks - all the fault of politicians - and those who vote them into power - I can not believe we would not be much better off.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
February 13, 2013, 03:11:00 PM
#55
hero member
Activity: 931
Merit: 500
February 13, 2013, 01:41:34 PM
#54
Nice! Friedman discussing Bitcoin!

Quote from: Duncan
Now you've got a PhD in Physics and you say you don't understand Bitcoin so that doesn't really leave much hope for the rest of us.

Quote from: Friedman
And there are obvious reasons why a lot of people would prefer to make expenditures that other people can't observe, and from that standpoint, an anonymous e-cash would be superior to the present paypal, credit card, the various ways we now make payments online.

Quote from: Friedman
So the only path that seems to me very likely is the one which comes not through a collapse of the present system, but through the introduction of some superior substitute.

legendary
Activity: 1227
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2013, 10:59:01 AM
#53
David Friedman on Bitcoin and monetary freedom:

Published on Feb 13, 2013
http://youtu.be/YyHVDuWaBQM
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 506
February 01, 2013, 10:57:40 AM
#52
Not true at all. That bubble happened precisely because of regulation. Banks were practically forced to lower lending standards by Freddie and Fannie, not to mention the FED key interest rate affected mortgage rates to get artificially low enabling many to borrow who couldn't afford it. All Wall Street did was feed upon this circle and meet a demand that was created by the government and no one else. It's called moral hazard, look it up.
This is completely and utterly bass-ackwards. The only influence Freddie and Fannie had was that they wouldn't buy mortgages on the secondary market unless they met minimum underwriting standards. The pressure was actually in the opposite direction - the banks pressured Freddie and Fannie to lower their lending standard so the banks could make more money on risky subprime loans.

However that ignores the bigger picture, namely the amazing and astounding history of Freddie and Fannie from the 70s and the knock on effects.  My oversimplified understanding of it is of the way in which those government-set-up institutions got used to force lenders to lend irresponsibly to fulfill political agendas.
I've heard this said a lot, but again the exact opposite is true. For instance have you looked at what the much-criticised Community Reinvestment Act actually did? It banned the practice of "redlining" - banks were no longer allowed to refuse mortgages to people who otherwise met their lending criteria just because they were buying homes in poor, largely black urban areas. That's it. It didn't require them to lend money to people who couldn't afford it or any of the other things blamed on it; that was a purely profit-motivated commercial decision by the bank.

Actually, things would probably have been worse without the CRA. Amongst other shady things, banks had been pushing black homebuyers into expensive subprime mortgages they couldn't afford even though they were eligible for a much cheaper, affordable prime mortgage on the same house because those mortgages were more profitable for the banks in the short term. Without the CRA, the banks could and almost certainly would have refused to give prime mortgages to those buyers, forcing them to rely on the subprime mortgages that caused the problems in the first place.

OK, I've gone back to where I'd got this impression.  The author is Eamonn Butler, Director of the Adam Smith Institute so his angle is not surprising.  However, it sounded plausible when I read it and I've still not been persuaded otherwise.  I will admit to wanting to continue believing because it supports my world-view but I will invite you to post any references backing up your argument so I can if necessary revise my opinion by being better informed.

Quote
How politicians forced bankers to make bad loans

The final ingredient in this poisonous cocktail was the Community Reinvestment
Act (CRA), which President Jimmy Carter signed on 13 October
1977. Its aim was laudable – to promote home ownership for minorities.
It made illegal the practice of redlining, whereby lenders would simply
refuse mortgages in poor (and commonly black and Hispanic) areas on
the grounds that low-quality housing and high levels of unemployment
and welfare dependency made local residents unattractive as borrowers.
From now on, the lenders were expected to conduct business over
the whole of the geographical area they served. They could not favour the
suburbs over the inner-city districts. To make sure they complied, the
1975 Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) forced lenders to provide
detailed reports about whom they lent to. And the Carter administration
also funded various ‘community’ groups, such as the Association of
Community Organisations for Reform Now (ACORN), to help monitor
their performance on the CRA rules.
In 1991 the HMDA rules were strengthened to include a specific
demand for racial equality in the institutions’ lending. In 1992 the
Federal Reserve Bank of Boston published a manual for lenders that
went even further. It advised them that a mortgage applicant’s lack of
credit history should not be seen as a negative factor in assessing them
for a loan; that lenders should not flinch if borrowers used loans or gifts
for their mortgage deposit; and that unemployment benefits would be a
valid source of income for lending decisions. It also reminded them that
failing to meet CRA regulations could be a violation of equal opportunity
laws that exposed them to actual damages plus punitive damages of
$500,000.
The government went further, ‘streamlining’ the CRA regulations in
1995 to allow, and indeed force, lenders to ignore most of the traditional
criteria of creditworthiness in their loan decisions. Mortgages could
now be any multiple of income; a person’s saving history was irrelevant;
applicants’ income did not need to be verified; and participation in a
credit counselling programme could be taken as proof of an applicant’s
ability to manage a loan. In other words, the government was now
forcing the institutions to make loans to people who they knew were not
creditworthy.

And to make sure all this happened, more taxpayer funds were
given to monitoring groups such as ACORN. As public scrutiny of
bank mergers and acquisitions increased following their 1994 Riegle-
Neal deregulation, these groups were actually able to hold the banks
to ransom. Under the CRA, if a lender wants to change its business
operation in any way – merging with another bank, opening or closing
branches, or developing new products – it must convince the regulators
that it will continue to make sufficient loans to the government’s
preferred groups of borrowers. ACORN and others can file petitions
with the regulators to stop the banks’ plans.


Bad loans and booming markets

Not surprisingly, the banks paid the ransom. And now that creditworthiness
was no longer a requirement for getting a loan, the number of
sub-prime loans boomed. Home ownership increased, from 65 per cent
of households to 69 per cent between 1995 and 2004, representing about
4.6 million new homeowners. This put pressure on house prices, which
also rose sharply from their stable position in the early 1990s.
Meanwhile, a 1992 law was pushing the government-sponsored
Fannie Mae and its younger twin the Federal Home Loan Mortgage
Company (Freddie Mac) to devote more effort to meeting wider home
ownership goals. High-risk loans were everywhere. Even the FHA
promoted more credit to poor borrowers by offering low-deposit loans.
And Freddie Mac actually developed the process of securitising bad
loan packages and selling this bad debt around the world.
This business
boomed after 1995 too.
Fannie and Freddie profited from this system, while passing most
of the risk on to taxpayers. To make sure, they contributed heavily to
congressional offices, and spent hundreds of millions on lobbying and
pressure groups. Other unscrupulous lenders also knew that Freddie
and Fannie – and ultimately the taxpayers – would guarantee their bad
loans, so were happy to make more of them.
While house prices continued to rise, everything seemed to go well.
Even the riskiest borrowers were meeting their payments. Some people
refinanced on the back of rising house prices and pocketed nice profits.
And other government interventions kept the bubble growing. Land-use
regulations, limiting the opportunity for house building, pushed prices
up further. Income tax deductions for mortgages favoured housing over
other savings.
Meanwhile, the Federal Reserve – assisted by the Bank of England
– had flooded world markets with credit after the stock market crash
of 1987. They did the same again whenever any downturn threatened
– the dotcom crash, and spectacularly after 9/11, when interest rates
came down from 6.25 per cent to just 1 per cent – which just boosted
borrowing even more. So house prices continued their rise, and homeowners
enjoyed the boom.
There seemed every reason to buy houses, and no reason not to.
By 2006, perhaps a fifth of buyers were simply speculators – not just
middle-class speculators, but low-income ones too. In states like California,
where lenders could not go after a borrower’s assets, there was
no risk at all: if things went wrong, you simply sent the keys back to the
lender and walked away. They called it ‘jingle mail’.

Butler - The Financial Crisis: Blame Governments, Not Bankers - from the IEA publication Verdict on the Crash, Edited by Philip Booth
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
February 01, 2013, 10:04:40 AM
#51
Not true at all. That bubble happened precisely because of regulation. Banks were practically forced to lower lending standards by Freddie and Fannie, not to mention the FED key interest rate affected mortgage rates to get artificially low enabling many to borrow who couldn't afford it. All Wall Street did was feed upon this circle and meet a demand that was created by the government and no one else. It's called moral hazard, look it up.
This is completely and utterly bass-ackwards. The only influence Freddie and Fannie had was that they wouldn't buy mortgages on the secondary market unless they met minimum underwriting standards. The pressure was actually in the opposite direction - the banks pressured Freddie and Fannie to lower their lending standard so the banks could make more money on risky subprime loans.

However that ignores the bigger picture, namely the amazing and astounding history of Freddie and Fannie from the 70s and the knock on effects.  My oversimplified understanding of it is of the way in which those government-set-up institutions got used to force lenders to lend irresponsibly to fulfill political agendas.
I've heard this said a lot, but again the exact opposite is true. For instance have you looked at what the much-criticised Community Reinvestment Act actually did? It banned the practice of "redlining" - banks were no longer allowed to refuse mortgages to people who otherwise met their lending criteria just because they were buying homes in poor, largely black urban areas. That's it. It didn't require them to lend money to people who couldn't afford it or any of the other things blamed on it; that was a purely profit-motivated commercial decision by the bank.

Actually, things would probably have been worse without the CRA. Amongst other shady things, banks had been pushing black homebuyers into expensive subprime mortgages they couldn't afford even though they were eligible for a much cheaper, affordable prime mortgage on the same house because those mortgages were more profitable for the banks in the short term. Without the CRA, the banks could and almost certainly would have refused to give prime mortgages to those buyers, forcing them to rely on the subprime mortgages that caused the problems in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 1227
Merit: 1000
January 31, 2013, 07:24:24 AM
#50
Link to Youtube of Friedman's conference (in English):
http://youtu.be/pRxOEvq4M6M
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
January 28, 2013, 03:55:57 AM
#49
People who think anarchism will somehow break out and become a major political force are deluding themselves. It will be crushed brutally by the ruling elites and by people who are very good at violence and suppression. In the unlikely event that a government does not exist its more likely to return to feudalism than anything else. I think humans have a gene that predisposes them to slavery and its been well conditioned. If you look around the war has already been lost and the market demands slavery and oppression.

This doesnt make me a statist it makes me a realist.

I agree that this doesn't make you a statist.

What's interesting to me is; we almost have the same view of reality, however I call it extremely hard instead of impossible, mainly because I can't just accept it as what it is and move on. That makes me an anarchist.

Anarchy doesn't have to "break out" though. I'm mostly hoping that humanity will grow out of statism. Highly unlikely, that I agree to. But it doesn't make any sense to leave the idea behind as long as you can do something about it.
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