LOL BURN, XD
i no, rite? XD XD XD XD XD
Topic: Dead cat bounce (Read 4320 times)
Mmm, strawman.
Yeah, have a re-look at your posts, and tell me you weren't, in general sentiment, attempting to tell me how my boilerplate, narrowly defined economic arguments (in response to a single premise in the OP, no less) were moot because "BUT THIS IS BITCOIN!".
You dismiss any behavior that isn't right for you as "doesn't make sense" or "a joke". Are you against people being gay, too? How about people you don't speak your language, do you expect them to learn English?
"Myopic" continues to apply to your viewpoint. Speculation applies to more than just profit-maximizing behavior, and in fact I made clear that I speculate without attempting to maximum profit, but rather to minimize volatility.
1) who cares if my viewpoint isn't a liberarian one? Sure enough, I'm not much of a libertarian, but I hear there are many around these parts, and it's just one of many valid reasons to participate in the bitcoin experiment.
2) exchange markets are but one way of trading currencies. I used to trade on the #bitcoin_otc, and that works fine. Assuming you live in the US (as most myopic people do), it's likely you've never been to an exchange.
Your criteria are neither necessary or sufficient. Mine are not necessary, but they are sufficient as they work for me and others. QED.
"Myopic" continues to apply to your viewpoint. Speculation applies to more than just profit-maximizing behavior, and in fact I made clear that I speculate without attempting to maximum profit, but rather to minimize volatility.
1) who cares if my viewpoint isn't a liberarian one? Sure enough, I'm not much of a libertarian, but I hear there are many around these parts, and it's just one of many valid reasons to participate in the bitcoin experiment.
2) exchange markets are but one way of trading currencies. I used to trade on the #bitcoin_otc, and that works fine. Assuming you live in the US (as most myopic people do), it's likely you've never been to an exchange.
Your criteria are neither necessary or sufficient. Mine are not necessary, but they are sufficient as they work for me and others. QED.
I'm assuming this is directed at me and not fivebells, because that would make the most sense. I directed none of those points to you, only Crypt_Current, who presumably wanted to know why I thought bitcoin would never exist as a useable currency without speculative behavior in any sense, regardless of exchange venue. I threw that libertarian bit in there as a joke.
Seriously, old_engineer, you're just reacting to my abrasive call-out that you just can't read (or quote) appropriately. I don't disagree with a single thing you've said. You're still doing a terrible job of showing me you can "read good", though. See fivebells, below, for not even realizing you were quoting the wrong dude as the nail in the coffin: you dumbasses couldn't recite the alphabet.
LOL BURN, XD
Mmm, strawman.
Yeah, have a re-look at your posts, and tell me you weren't, in general sentiment, attempting to tell me how my boilerplate, narrowly defined economic arguments (in response to a single premise in the OP, no less) were moot because "BUT THIS IS BITCOIN!".
You dismiss any behavior that isn't right for you as "doesn't make sense" or "a joke". Are you against people being gay, too? How about people you don't speak your language, do you expect them to learn English?
"Myopic" continues to apply to your viewpoint. Speculation applies to more than just profit-maximizing behavior, and in fact I made clear that I speculate without attempting to maximum profit, but rather to minimize volatility.
1) who cares if my viewpoint isn't a liberarian one? Sure enough, I'm not much of a libertarian, but I hear there are many around these parts, and it's just one of many valid reasons to participate in the bitcoin experiment.
2) exchange markets are but one way of trading currencies. I used to trade on the #bitcoin_otc, and that works fine. Assuming you live in the US (as most myopic people do), it's likely you've never been to an exchange.
Your criteria are neither necessary or sufficient. Mine are not necessary, but they are sufficient as they work for me and others. QED.
"Myopic" continues to apply to your viewpoint. Speculation applies to more than just profit-maximizing behavior, and in fact I made clear that I speculate without attempting to maximum profit, but rather to minimize volatility.
1) who cares if my viewpoint isn't a liberarian one? Sure enough, I'm not much of a libertarian, but I hear there are many around these parts, and it's just one of many valid reasons to participate in the bitcoin experiment.
2) exchange markets are but one way of trading currencies. I used to trade on the #bitcoin_otc, and that works fine. Assuming you live in the US (as most myopic people do), it's likely you've never been to an exchange.
Your criteria are neither necessary or sufficient. Mine are not necessary, but they are sufficient as they work for me and others. QED.
I'm assuming this is directed at me and not fivebells, because that would make the most sense. I directed none of those points to you, only Crypt_Current, who presumably wanted to know why I thought bitcoin would never exist as a useable currency without speculative behavior in any sense, regardless of exchange venue. I threw that libertarian bit in there as a joke.
Seriously, old_engineer, you're just reacting to my abrasive call-out that you just can't read (or quote) appropriately. I don't disagree with a single thing you've said. You're still doing a terrible job of showing me you can "read good", though. See fivebells, below, for not even realizing you were quoting the wrong dude as the nail in the coffin: you dumbasses couldn't recite the alphabet.
You dismiss any behavior that isn't right for you as "doesn't make sense" or "a joke". Are you against people being gay, too? How about people you don't speak your language, do you expect them to learn English?
No, but I'm against woolly thinking and personal attacks like this. 
Kuhn-Tucker conditions - necessary and sufficient. Necessary to ignore because it is sufficient that it is late and I've been drinking - mmmm vodka/lime. My previous cat liked malt whiskey.
btw - old-miner has it right - it works for him, and that is sufficient, therefore not necessarily optimal, but constraints satisfied, therefore an interor solution to his multi-dimensional problem.
btw - old-miner has it right - it works for him, and that is sufficient, therefore not necessarily optimal, but constraints satisfied, therefore an interor solution to his multi-dimensional problem.
I was responding to two individuals (old_engineer and fivebells). I was pointing out that their general sentiments ("You can't talk about economic rationality with bitcoins! Bitcoin is about faith and love and backless currency and...!") was a joke because it 1) flies in the face of both libertarianism and 2) you can't really have a currency as bitcoin purports to be without an exchange market and arbitrage.
Mmm, strawman."Myopic" continues to apply to your viewpoint. Speculation applies to more than just profit-maximizing behavior, and in fact I made clear that I speculate without attempting to maximum profit, but rather to minimize volatility.
1) who cares if my viewpoint isn't a liberarian one? Sure enough, I'm not much of a libertarian, but I hear there are many around these parts, and it's just one of many valid reasons to participate in the bitcoin experiment.
2) exchange markets are but one way of trading currencies. I used to trade on the #bitcoin_otc, and that works fine. Assuming you live in the US (as most myopic people do), it's likely you've never been to an exchange.
Your criteria are neither necessary or sufficient. Mine are not necessary, but they are sufficient as they work for me and others. QED.
I was responding to two individuals (old_engineer and fivebells). I was pointing out that their general sentiments ("You can't talk about economic rationality with bitcoins! Bitcoin is about faith and love and backless currency and...!") was a joke because it 1) flies in the face of both libertarianism and 2) you can't really have a currency as bitcoin purports to be without an exchange market and arbitrage.
Mmm, strawman. And as for exchanging BTC at places for things -- I do it all the time.
And, what's the problem with a little arbitrage? Have you visited bitcoinica.com?
I am tired of being a jerk, so I'll just explain normally.
I was responding to two individuals (old_engineer and fivebells). I was pointing out that their general sentiments ("You can't talk about economic rationality with bitcoins! Bitcoin is about faith and love and backless currency and...!") was a joke because it 1) flies in the face of both libertarianism and 2) you can't really have a currency as bitcoin purports to be without an exchange market and arbitrage.
I know at least old_engineer wasn't being that literal; they were just making counter-arguments about other valuable uses and utility gained outside of profiteering. None of which I dismiss. I was just calling to attention the general attitude that many have here: that speculation is undesirable. My argument: unavoidable (and read better, please).
I actually only use bitcoinica. There isn't really anything worth purchasing with BTC at the moment for me, and it's volatility makes using it as a currency pretty dangerous for my bank account.
And, what's the problem with a little arbitrage? Have you visited bitcoinica.com?
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and 2) not very possible.
Why not?
Love to hear how you expect a new currency to take hold if you can't exchange it anywhere. And I think it's pretty obvious that as soon as there's an exchange, there are people willing to take advantage of arbitrage.
This doesn't logically follow. I don't pay the power bill where I live and that is not my own choice.
No deduction necessary, I was stating fact.
Your "fact" is not anything like my personal situation.
And as for exchanging BTC at places for things -- I do it all the time.
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and 2) not very possible.
Why not?
Love to hear how you expect a new currency to take hold if you can't exchange it anywhere. And I think it's pretty obvious that as soon as there's an exchange, there are people willing to take advantage of arbitrage.
This doesn't logically follow. I don't pay the power bill where I live and that is not my own choice.
No deduction necessary, I was stating fact.
If short run marginal cost is below what you can sell for, you produce more. You hope to recover your "sunk" cost over the life of the project.
My cats still like the warmth from the computers.
My cats still like the warmth from the computers.
Yes, the OP talks about investing in new equipment, and how it might not be logical to invest when the short-run price is below long-run cost. However, this occurs often. In a field I work with (electricity markets), people will spend $500 million on a power station with a long-run cost of $100/MWh when the price is $50/MWh even though it is not logical to do so. They should wait until the price is higher.
However, once built, and with a SRMC (short run marginal cost) of $30/MWh, they have a marginal positive benefit when the price is above $30/MWh. i.e., if the the price is $31/MWh, run the damn thing and make a $1.
For bitcoin mining, if the price of bitcoin is greater than the short-run cost of production, people will mine, hence the focus on electricity cost. But it doesn't make as much sense to buy more hardware.
And the cats have both a sunk cost and a variable cost, but not much bitcoin output - I should turn them off (no, I don't think so).
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"I have no overhead so I always make a profit." i.e. "I steal my power, so who cares?!"
This doesn't logically follow. I don't pay the power bill where I live and that is not my own choice.
Also, what if I did live somewhere that I was in charge of the power bill, and I used all solar power? Or wind?
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and 2) not very possible.
Why not?
Everybody here agrees that a new GPU mining rig is a bad investment. However most people are not loosing money on the short run, they are making electricity and something extra - just read my numeric examples. This is the complete quote of the OP, the important part bolded for your reading pleasure:
Indeed. My displeasure stemmed not from your inability to understand after all, but rather your choice to ignore the piece of the OP I was working from. With a conditional statement. I'd like to hear more about the above, though. Lots of room in this debate for whether or not it's actually profitable.
If all you want to do is safely invest USD with a guaranteed short-term return, go buy a treasury bond, and stop using 15 point bold font to annoy us with your myopic viewpoints.
Lol. You do realize you're in the "speculation" subforum? Just curious if you can even read the big words at the very top, now.
I give away money all the time, and I suppose that doesn't make sense to you, either: it's called donating.
Again, without a basic understanding of utility, you have nowhere to stand arguing in this subforum. Go look it up, seriously. I have no problem with ulterior motives besides profit for miners. I was only responding to the (OP's presumed, hypothetical) factors driving them. Your reading comprehension is called into question, once again.
There are people who are going to mine bitcoin even if the exchange rate is 1c/BTC, because they like the idea. On the other hand, such people are less likely to dump all the BTC they mine into an exchange for fiat currency.
And there are people like me who could care less about its success as long as I'm betting on the right side for profit. I see a large, generalized outcry about the "commoditization" of bitcoins around here, as if the existence of transactions outside goods/service exchange is the demon of your pet project. 1) Not very libertarian of you, and 2) not very possible.
I think this poll is pertinent to the discusion http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24542.0
Many people will continue mining when it costs more to mine than they get in return.
Consider also bitcoin related businesses, who might continue mining at a loss so that the rest of their business can continue making a profit.
Many people will continue mining when it costs more to mine than they get in return.
Consider also bitcoin related businesses, who might continue mining at a loss so that the rest of their business can continue making a profit.
"I have no overhead so I always make a profit." i.e. "I steal my power, so who cares?!"
@iamzill
I hear on other forums people complaining that they can't buy bitcoins with a credit card and how difficult it is. And I hear on this one that people are able to make money doing it and don't get that many ripoffs if they only sell one coin at a time.
I hear on other forums people complaining that they can't buy bitcoins with a credit card and how difficult it is. And I hear on this one that people are able to make money doing it and don't get that many ripoffs if they only sell one coin at a time.
@iamzill
They sell bitcoins on eBay for twice the price they normally are. But that's at the risk of selling them via PayPal.
They sell bitcoins on eBay for twice the price they normally are. But that's at the risk of selling them via PayPal.
Those sales on ebay are either scams will never go through (only idiots would pay $10 when they can pay $5).
I'm talking about 0 risk transactions here that have huge liquidity and thus happen instantaneously. Just imagine merchant A = mtgox.
@iamzill
They sell bitcoins on eBay for twice the price they normally are. But that's at the risk of selling them via PayPal.
They sell bitcoins on eBay for twice the price they normally are. But that's at the risk of selling them via PayPal.
When the revenue drops bellow the energy bill you must stop mining immediately. There's no point in buying overpriced bitcoins via your energy bill when you can buy them cheaper on the market. If you would eventually turn a profit by continuing mining, you stand to gain even more by stopping mining and buying coins on the market (because you can buy more for the same money spent on electricity; or buy the same amount as you would have mined, and pocket the dollar difference).
Profits from predicting the future price of bitcoins are speculative, the revenue for mining is simple arithmetic. Can't believe people still fail at this after the topic has been talked to death in hundreds of threads.
Profits from predicting the future price of bitcoins are speculative, the revenue for mining is simple arithmetic. Can't believe people still fail at this after the topic has been talked to death in hundreds of threads.
Right..... I totally fail at this topic.
Of course future Bitcoin price is speculative! That doesn't mean a miner "must stop mining immediately." I very clearly targeted people who BELIEVE the price of Bitcoin will once again rise above energy costs.
If you want no risk income, well, you probably wouldn't have started mining at all, since the original hardware investment would've been a risk. If your hardware is paid off and you only want a guaranteed return, sure by all means, stop mining. But if you're like many of the rest of us, who BELIEVE bitcoins will one day be much, much more valuable, to stop mining now would be to miss the opportunity for more coins.
Every investment involves weighing risks and rewards. This is no exception.
-Jix
If merchant A is selling bitcoins for $5 and merchant B is selling bitcoins for $6, which one would you buy from?
If merchant A is selling bitcoins for $5 and merchant B is selling bitcoins for $6, but you spent $2000 to get a premium account at merchant B, which one would you buy from? (Remember, if you don't use that premium account you're wasting your $2000 investment)
If merchant A is selling bitcoins for $5 and your miner is producing Bitcoins at a cost of $6/BTC, would you mine or buy?
If merchant A is selling bitcoins for $5 and your miner is producing Bitcoins at a cost of $6/BTC, and you've put in $2000 in your rig, would you mine or buy?
When the revenue drops bellow the energy bill you must stop mining immediately. There's no point in buying overpriced bitcoins via your energy bill when you can buy them cheaper on the market. If you would eventually turn a profit by continuing mining, you stand to gain even more by stopping mining and buying coins on the market (because you can buy more for the same money spent on electricity; or buy the same amount as you would have mined, and pocket the dollar difference).
Profits from predicting the future price of bitcoins are speculative, the revenue for mining is simple arithmetic. Can't believe people still fail at this after the topic has been talked to death in hundreds of threads.
Profits from predicting the future price of bitcoins are speculative, the revenue for mining is simple arithmetic. Can't believe people still fail at this after the topic has been talked to death in hundreds of threads.
Right..... I totally fail at this topic.
Of course future Bitcoin price is speculative! That doesn't mean a miner "must stop mining immediately." I very clearly targeted people who BELIEVE the price of Bitcoin will once again rise above energy costs.
If you want no risk income, well, you probably wouldn't have started mining at all, since the original hardware investment would've been a risk. If your hardware is paid off and you only want a guaranteed return, sure by all means, stop mining. But if you're like many of the rest of us, who BELIEVE bitcoins will one day be much, much more valuable, to stop mining now would be to miss the opportunity for more coins.
Every investment involves weighing risks and rewards. This is no exception.
-Jix
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