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Topic: Debunking the "Bitcoin is an environmental disaster" argument. - page 14. (Read 5223 times)

legendary
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The whole idea of a battery is to accumulate power when is excess production and supply it back when there is demand, bitcoin mining is not storing energy, it's consuming non-stop the same amount of power. While it helps burning energy when there is extra production it also drives up consumption when there is peak demand during the daytime.

A miner running on solar power will have to come up with at least 3 times the consumption as storage capacity assuming no day without sun, a single S19pro burns in 18 hours 60kwh, a tesla powerwall has 13.5kwh, a battery on the entry-level tesla S is 70kwh.  Grin The cost is simply prohibitive.

In the Grossman paper I linked in the OP the concept “battery” doesn’t mean to be taken literally, but as a “proxy” meaning bitcoin can “use” excess energy when, or where, it is abundant to pay for it when or where it is scarce. In this sense act as a battery. Not in the physical way, but as a “Store of Energy” meaning.

Atomic plants are actually the best match for bitcoin mining.


I am wondering what is keeping energy companies to install on massive mining operations at their plants. They would pay for themselves.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Coupling inefficient renewable project with bitcoin mining operation, could lower the marginal cost of the whole project, helping spreading the renewed le usage.

Bitcoin mining and renewables in the form of solar and wind are not making a good combination.

The whole idea of a battery is to accumulate power when is excess production and supply it back when there is demand, bitcoin mining is not storing energy, it's consuming non-stop the same amount of power. While it helps burning energy when there is extra production it also drives up consumption when there is peak demand during the daytime.

A miner running on solar power will have to come up with at least 3 times the consumption as storage capacity assuming no day without sun, a single S19pro burns in 18 hours 60kwh, a tesla powerwall has 13.5kwh, a battery on the entry-level tesla S is 70kwh.  Grin The cost is simply prohibitive.

Obviously what the study do not tell you is why bitcoin mining should be used only in renewable energy plants and not atomic plants, who suffer from the exact same issue of production/demand mismatch.

Atomic plants are actually the best match for bitcoin mining.
Unlike solar who delivers power at the peak time for demand and goes black at night, atomic power's weakness is that it can't shut down at night and power up at daytime, nuclear power while reliable is not that easy to turn on and off. Bitcoin mining could take advantage of this excess power that is produced when nearly nobody wants it.
Bitcoin mining and nuclear power are a perfect match, constant power needs, production is not influenced by weather, no need to be near a coal mine and thousands of freight trains carrying fuel, they ran on fuel rods that go for years, and as long as you have some water nearby you can set them in cold areas so mining farms would need no cooling.

But, we're living in an era where the eco-green propaganda would turn install against this idea.

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1159
--snip--
That being said I don't know why some people are so focused on trying to portrait bitcoin as running on unicorn farts, so it's coal, good, what's the problem? The hospital I was born in ran on coal, from it to the school and kindergarten to which my child goes the hypermarket and the mall in our region everything powered by coal, should I run to a cave and commit suicide because of it?

Mining is business, you go for the cheap thing available, miners don't move their gear a thousand miles because hydropower is good for the environment they do it for $. Bitmain didn't set its main farm in Ordos to help the people by providing jobs, they did it because they could get power ar 2 cents.
Good point. The free market allocating resources where they are most needed and the most productive.

The OP has many good points. What about the fact that Bitcoin has enabled a whole industry where investors are willing to buy a new class of asset in order to manage their financial risks in the long term?  When was the last time that a "commodity" launched a whole side industry with users and communities focussed towards better financial management?

Can the governments, central banks or private investment banks offer an alternative risk management system? What would it cost to keep it running?

This argument relies on the utility of Bitcoin and its importance as a financial innovation. Someone with better data should probably try to put a number on this.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Square released an important white paper about bitcoin power usage.
Bitcoin magazine reported about this:

SQUARE MAKES THE CASE FOR CLEAN ENERGY BITCOIN

Quote

In a white paper released today, financial services company Square outlines the opportunity that Bitcoin presents to facilitate a transition to a cleaner and more resilient electricity grid.

The research report, titled “Bitcoin Is Key To An Abundant, Clean Energy Future,” was released as part of Square’s Bitcoin Clean Energy Initiative, an ongoing effort to support companies working to integrate green energy technologies within bitcoin mining. Square also supports Bitcoin projects financially through its Square Crypto arm and offers BTC for sale through its payments app Cash App.

The research paper highlighted the opportunity that Bitcoin presents to accelerate a global transition to renewable energy sources, as Bitcoin miners are uniquely positioned to capitalize and make the most of these sources.

“Bitcoin miners are unique energy buyers in that they offer highly flexible and easily interruptible load, provide payout in a globally liquid cryptocurrency, and are completely location agnostic, requiring only an internet connection,” per the report.


You can read the paper here:

Bitcoin is Key to an Abundant, Clean Energy Future

Quote

In this memo, we aim to explain how the Bitcoin network functions as a unique energy buyer that could enable society to deploy substantially more solar and wind generation capacity. This deployment, along with energy storage, aims to facilitate the transition to a cleaner and more resilient electricity grid. We believe that the energy asset owners of today can become the essential bitcoin miners of tomorrow.


Well, while I am skeptic about the fact that is the role of bitcoin miners to drive the evolution of the energy grids, as I see no way how electricity sold to a miner is different from electricity sold to any other customer, I recognised they elaborated more on the “Bitcoin is a battery” idea.
Coupling inefficient renewable project with bitcoin mining operation, could lower the marginal cost of the whole project, helping spreading the renewed le usage.

Obviously what the study do not tell you is why bitcoin mining should be used only in renewable energy plants and not atomic plants, who suffer from the exact same issue of production/demand mismatch.




legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Quote
Recent studies show that bitcoin mining uses 39% energy from renewable sources (solar, hydroelectric, wind, geothermal, etc.) and 25% from energy derived from nuclear power and, to a minimum, fossil fuels. This percentage is steadily increasing, especially in China, where the transition to low carbon footprint production is happening more rapidly.

Seems like some researchers need to do their homework again.
One thing we know for sure is that at least 30% of the hashrate comes from good old dirty and more important cheap as f coal.
So the minimum is probably more like the majority, seeing that some of the biggest projects are actually being built on former aluminum smelters close to coal mines even if this happens outside of China.

That being said I don't know why some people are so focused on trying to portrait bitcoin as running on unicorn farts, so it's coal, good, what's the problem? The hospital I was born in ran on coal, from it to the school and kindergarten to which my child goes the hypermarket and the mall in our region everything powered by coal, should I run to a cave and commit suicide because of it?

Mining is business, you go for the cheap thing available, miners don't move their gear a thousand miles because hydropower is good for the environment they do it for $. Bitmain didn't set its main farm in Ordos to help the people by providing jobs, they did it because they could get power ar 2 cents.


legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
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The argument is that China is mining the most bitcoins in the world and they are the country with the most "Coal" plants, but they also forget that China is also the country with the most hydro electric plants in the world. (most of the large mining farms use hydro electricity to power their mining farms) and hydro electricity are a renewable energy source.

Look at this : https://www.statista.com/statistics/474799/global-hydropower-generation-by-major-country/

Also compare Apples with Apples and look at the combined power that are used by the Banking industry to power their buildings. (24 hour CCTV / ATMs / IT networks etc..)  Wink
full member
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I've heard a lot about Bitcoin destroying the environment. I wonder if other industries do not destroy the environment?
Suck oil from the ground up and burned; creating plastic and discharging it into the ocean; exploiting trees to serve the needs of home furniture; ...
All of the above industries also destroy the environment.
Bitcoin provides a financial and anti-fraud solution. Applying Bitcoin will benefit the world trillions of dollars lost through the use of financial system failures.
Comparing the negative and beneficial sides of Bitcoin is still better than dozens of industries out there.
member
Activity: 224
Merit: 36
The thing that annoys me most is that although people are aware that a lot of crypto is mined using green energy, some will say:

"Oh, but that green energy could be used for something else".

This seems like a paradox to me, as that energy wouldn't have been brought online if it wasn't for crypto mining.

These green energy companies are hardly going to start creating energy if there are no customers for it.

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Bitcoin Magazine wrote a nice article on this topic, that apparently is the hot one (pun intended).


BITCOIN POWER: THE ENERGY OF A MONEY


Quote
The energy sector is seeing a complete paradigm shift:
  • Bitcoin’s monetary network effect
  • Monetization of energy
  • Leads to an arms race of energy tech becoming more and more efficient and productive
  • Cheap energy production allows for cheap energy utilization
  • Cheap energy utilization allows for cheap manufacturing, mineral mining and product R&D

The author focuses on the efficiency improvement the mining industry can give to the power production chain.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
We already pointed the fact that Bitcoin is one of the few industries where the total consumption is accounted and scrutinised.
What about the Christmas Light  industry?

Now they say Bitcoin is bad, sun is bad and animals like cows are also bad because they create lot of pollution, they should be killed, and we need to eat only synthetic meat (as per dr. Bill Gates and other 'experts' like him).
How about that masks we are all forced to put on are faces every day even if we all know they don't protect us from anything more than polluted air in best case scenarios.
Cheap masks should be used only one time and then thrown away, creating millions and billions more junk that is really polluting our environment but nobody is talking about that.
I learned something new in last two years, villains from comic books actually exist in the real world.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Compared to many other areas of our lives, bitcoin is the greenest industry possible.

Exactly.
We already pointed the fact that Bitcoin is one of the few industries where the total consumption is accounted and scrutinised.
What about the Christmas Light  industry?
sr. member
Activity: 481
Merit: 251
Compared to many other areas of our lives, bitcoin is the greenest industry possible.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
The problem is that it won't be able to get through the thick heads of the people that are advocating that bitcoin as a whole is a contributor to the pollution. Maybe the only way to stop all this nonsense is to continue educating people and ignoring all the FUDs.

This is exactly the aim of this thread. Raise the awareness of the unbiased knowledge, letting everyone decide based upon real information, not distorced, word of mouth myths.
sr. member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 315
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Very well said. I'm honestly getting tired of people being very misinformed about bitcoin telling things like it's polluting the environment when millions of dollars are being spent into burning fossil fuels, mining oil, mining gold and basically all other non renewable energy resources that are much more polluting to the environment than bitcoin. Plastics, the food industry, phone production, I can literally go all day here talking about industries that are much more damaging to the environment than bitcoin mining.
The problem is that it won't be able to get through the thick heads of the people that are advocating that bitcoin as a whole is a contributor to the pollution. Maybe the only way to stop all this nonsense is to continue educating people and ignoring all the FUDs.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Very interesting, long paper about the carbon footprint associated with Bitcoin mining in China.
A good scientific paper, with some objective data.

Policy assessments for the carbon emission flows and sustainability of Bitcoin blockchain operation in China



Quote
Abstract
The growing energy consumption and associated carbon emission of Bitcoin mining could potentially undermine global sustainable efforts. By investigating carbon emission flows of Bitcoin blockchain operation in China with a simulation-based Bitcoin blockchain carbon emission model, we find that without any policy interventions, the annual energy consumption of the Bitcoin blockchain in China is expected to peak in 2024 at 296.59 Twh and generate 130.50 million metric tons of carbon emission correspondingly. Internationally, this emission output would exceed the total annualized greenhouse gas emission output of the Czech Republic and Qatar. Domestically, it ranks in the top 10 among 182 cities and 42 industrial sectors in China. In this work, we show that moving away from the current punitive carbon tax policy to a site regulation policy which induces changes in the energy consumption structure of the mining activities is more effective in limiting carbon emission of Bitcoin blockchain operation.

The view is the usual one, but at least the gathered data have been put in the right perspective.

sr. member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 374
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Very well said. I'm honestly getting tired of people being very misinformed about bitcoin telling things like it's polluting the environment when millions of dollars are being spent into burning fossil fuels, mining oil, mining gold and basically all other non renewable energy resources that are much more polluting to the environment than bitcoin. Plastics, the food industry, phone production, I can literally go all day here talking about industries that are much more damaging to the environment than bitcoin mining.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Another very interesting longform by Christopher Bendiksen, Head of Research at CoinShares.
This article put some focus on the fact Bitcoin is a settlement system like FedWire, not a payment system like VISA.


A Closer Look at the Environmental Impact of Bitcoin Mining




Quote

  • Bitcoin (BTC) is a settlement system like FedWire, not a payments aggregator like Visa
  • It uses energy to deliver that function independently of central authorities
  • Global energy production continues to rely on fossil fuels
  • However, cryptocurrency mining is mobile and global — constantly seeking out the cheapest available electricity, often stranded renewables
  • Bitcoin mining has a substantial role, both in the present and the future, in eliminating waste and in load balancing power systems based on intermittent renewable energy

Particularly, on the above note about the difference between a payment system and a settlement layer:

Quote
Bitcoin is a settlement system, not a payments aggregator

First things first. What is Bitcoin[1] and what is it not?

Bitcoin is a settlement system like FedWire, it is not a payments aggregator like Visa. I constantly see Bitcoin compared to Visa, MasterCard, or PayPal, and this is the main source of mathematical atrocities whereby Bitcoin’s overall electricity cost is divided by its transactions and then compared to something it’s not. Energy use per settlement transaction is a nonsensical metric by which to judge Bitcoin’s energy use.

Just like the 800,000 or so daily FedWire transactions are not a good measure of the total amount of daily Dollar (USD) transactions, Bitcoin’s 325,000[2] or so daily transactions are not a good measure of the total amount of daily bitcoin (BTC/XBT) transactions. Most bitcoin transactions are not visible. They take place inside the payment aggregation systems of exchanges, on the Lightning network, and yes, even inside of actual aggregators like PayPal, Square, or MasterCard. Only periodically are they settled onto the Bitcoin blockchain as visible transactions.

Solutions like this are referred to as network layering. This is a tried and tested approach to separating casual retail transactions from heavier settlement transactions and it is exactly how we already do things in the fiat monetary and payment systems. In such a system, the base layer, like FedWire (or Bitcoin), only acts as the final arbitrator of settlement transactions, everything else, and that is the vast majority of all transactions, happen in higher payment aggregation layers, which are often entirely different systems.

In other words, Bitcoin is not a competitor to Visa, MasterCard or Paypal. Bitcoin is an independent monetary system that aggregators can make use of.

Presenting Bitcoin’s electricity consumption in terms of its daily number of settlement transactions is a red herring.

legendary
Activity: 3234
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Definitely interesting reading from which I learned some new things such as that in addition to the "environmental disaster" argument there is a new one for which BTC can be blamed - and that is including the production of mining devices which causes a shortage of chips that cause great damage to the car and mobile industry Roll Eyes

As it turns out, the way foundries like TSMC (the foundry Bitmain relies on) operate, is that they tier their customers. They don’t optimize just for revenue, but consistent demand. They treat their Tier I customers much better, and give them privileged allocations to foundry space. Bitmain, the largest ASIC manufacturer, is not a Tier I customer. They have to settle for scraps. According to Big Al, the chip shortages are mainly due to a skyrocketing demand for consumer electronics and cloud during Covid (as everyone was stuck at home with nothing to do). Ultimately, Bitcoin miners represent a small fraction of TSMC revenue — around 1% according to Bernstein. The notion of a marginal, Tier II industry being responsible for chip shortages is fanciful.

A very interesting fact is the sales of mining machines in the past 2 quarters, which shows that 60% of sales ended outside China, and that customers are mostly located in North America, where electricity is on average cheaper than in China.

The conclusion of all this is that a lot has started to change when it comes to BTC mining, and that everyone is looking for alternatives not only in the locations, but also how to make mining as efficient and cleaner as possible.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
A very Good longform by Nic Carter debunking himself a Bloomberg article on mining:

Noahbjectivity on Bitcoin Mining



Quote
The Bloomberg columnist Noah Smith has a lot of thoughts on Bitcoin. Some of them are really solid and engage with the reality of the protocol itself, which is rare for a member of the mainstream media circuit. He also discloses that he owns Bitcoin, which is impressive for an economist and a member of the establishment. So I’m pretty happy with him overall. I don’t want this piece to be interpreted as a blanket critique of Noah’s stance on Bitcoin. However, Noah’s recent column in Bloomberg, Bitcoin Miners are on a Path to Self-Destruction, makes a few claims that warrant a response.
Noah’s basic premise is that Bitcoin miners are effectively hogging the grid in the various places where they operate and risk getting banned entirely. Not only is the notion of a global coordinated ban on mining far fetched, but Noah relies on a few claims that are dubious at best. Let’s investigate.

Recommended spending 20 minutes reading it.
sr. member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 453
In general, I think this problem is completely contrived. The question is raised about the consumption of energy when mining bitcoin, as if there is an acute problem in us. The use of solar panels can very quickly solve this problem, because the energy reserves of the sun are practically inexhaustible. In any case, you can oblige the miners to use the energy of the sun and wind.

If the Bitcoin miners want to go for green energy, then I welcome that step. But as of now, I don't think that there is any need for us to worry about these stupid arguments. First of all, according to the critics Bitcoin mining consumes 0.6% of all the electricity generation in the world. Out of that, a large fraction may be from coal-fired thermal power plants. Is this 0.6% such a big number? Why these people are focusing so much on this 0.6%, and ignoring the remaining 99.4%?

It is time for Bitcoiners to take a strong stance against these propaganda mongers. No one is providing electricity for free. Bitcoin miners are paying for the electricity and if these people have any issue then they should take it with those who work in electricity generation. It is like blaming someone who own a car for all the global warming that is occurring.
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