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Topic: Decentralised crime fighting using private set intersection protocols - page 4. (Read 33489 times)

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
hazek, please read the first post in this thread all the way through. It has an entire section on the definition of crime. And it should be clear that it's an optional layer on top. Actually I thought you would quite like it, it's a rather libertarian way to handle (the proceeds of) crime as the whole thing is more or less market based and government is not a special player.

Ok, I'll read all of it.
sr. member
Activity: 461
Merit: 251
Destroying (i.e. supplanting) a relatively freely-trading thing with a system that makes those things less free and depletes their intrinsic worth?
But clearly appeasing the authorities to a reasonable extent can also lead to Bitcoin being more freely traded.  It's pretty hard to freely trade an outlaw currency.  Let's face reality like adults.

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No, sir, I don't like it.
Haha, I know where that's from Smiley

Quote
It would mean starting fresh. People who care about bitcoin's original intrinsic value would be forced to design a system that's substantially less susceptible to the central hierarchy of a small development crew, "feature" creep, mass pooling, and provider dependency. That would not be an easy task. ...To say the least. If, however, bitcoin ever fell to that point, it would be both a shame and an honorable endeavor.
Not starting fresh at all though.  Cryptocurrency would have already made a big name for itself.  The UTXO set (current spendable coins) can be forked, so use is incentivized, and there's no speculative risk of being "on the wrong chain".  The weaknesses and proper countermeasures would be much clearer.  I'm sure there's more.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Edit: Though I hope it wouldn't ever come to having to create a separate underground chain, it's nice to have a contingency plan in mind.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
hazek, please read the first post in this thread all the way through. It has an entire section on the definition of crime. And it should be clear that it's an optional layer on top. Actually I thought you would quite like it, it's a rather libertarian way to handle (the proceeds of) crime as the whole thing is more or less market based and government is not a special player.
vip
Activity: 198
Merit: 101
The fundamental problem with combating crime is the definition of crime.

Who gets to decide what is a crime and who gets to decide who is guilty of it. If you're proposal is opt in and just some layer on top of bitcoin that people may opt in and thereby agree, CONTRACTUALLY with 100% explicit consent, to be governed by certain rules about what crime is and by certain people who get to decide whether they are guilt of it or not, then I'm perfectly fine with your proposal.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I just assumed you wanted this to be mandatory for all Bitcoin users, right? I would never ever agree to that. Ever. No matter how many children would need to die, I would not.

lol, are you being sarcastic? Almost everything in this comment is addressed in his original post. In fact, it's described very explicitly as a voluntary system.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
You know, if you want to argue that the financial system should be completely off limits to law enforcement and "follow the money" should be abandoned, definitely feel free to do that. Heck, maybe I'll be there arguing that along side you. Although it may not seem like it, I too appreciate the simplicity that comes with that approach.

The problem is, it's going to be a really tough argument to make, because law enforcement will have lots of examples of real cases where the technique worked. They will say, what about this case, or that case. How will we do our jobs if this tool is taken away from us?

The people listening to that debate will ultimately be politicians, who are trying to decide what to do with Bitcoin. They'll want to do whatever is most likely to get them re-elected. You know, they're faced with this system, how do they respond to it? So what happens if you can't manage to convince people (the voters) that "follow the money" is a fundamental infringement on peoples freedoms?

Well, you can propose a compromise solution in which "follow the money" is still possible, but designed such that it doesn't allow global surveillance or abuses of power by governments. Politicians are often open to such compromise solutions. Look at the DMCA. It balanced the needs of the content and tech industries via the safe harbor provisions: the whole thing is a giant compromise. So there is precedent for it.


By the way, I don't work on Google Wallet.

The fundamental problem with combating crime is the definition of crime.

Who gets to decide what is a crime and who gets to decide who is guilty of it. If you're proposal is opt in and just some layer on top of bitcoin that people may opt in and thereby agree, CONTRACTUALLY with 100% explicit consent, to be governed by certain rules about what crime is and by certain people who get to decide whether they are guilt of it or not, then I'm perfectly fine with your proposal.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I just assumed you wanted this to be mandatory for all Bitcoin users, right? I would never ever agree to that. Ever. No matter how many children would need to die, I would not.
sr. member
Activity: 269
Merit: 250
It is obvious for a government to force merchants to use it's blacklists, just pay to a merchant with tainted coins for what seems like a regular purchase and then see if he is going to report it, use fines and so on if merchant didn't report it. And before you are going to resort to the usual argument that democracy will sort it out, Bitcoin was created in the first place because democracy doesn't work in the matter of regulating financial system, majority of the people can't make an informed decisions about the matter, otherwise we wouldn't have Ben Bernanke printing money or almost legalized theft from Cyprus bank accounts. Bitcoin can bring free market into financial system, in free market smart individuals who get it right take all the benefits even if majority think they are wrong, they will be able to invent useful services and continue their work if there won't be majority of uninformed people standing in their way.
member
Activity: 118
Merit: 10
Wow, this system has the exact same flaws as capitalism, democracy and Bitcoin's consensus model!  What a terrible idea!  Burn the witch!
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
This is one of the first posts that makes me think twice about being on the bitcoin bandwagon to the extent I've been. The thought of cashing out some bitcoins even crossed my mind. It crossed my mind. That's all I'm saying. I continue to be skeptically optimistic and mindful.

It's destructive to promote an obvious, recurring concept that makes Bitcoin (big B) far more susceptible to collectives that set restraints and often have ulterior motives that employ force. It destroys the fungibility of bitcoins. Destroying (i.e. supplanting) a relatively freely-trading thing with a system that makes those things less free and depletes their intrinsic worth?

No, sir, I don't like it.

It would mean starting fresh. People who care about bitcoin's original intrinsic value would be forced to design a system that's substantially less susceptible to the central hierarchy of a small development crew, "feature" creep, mass pooling, and provider dependency. That would not be an easy task. ...To say the least. If, however, bitcoin ever fell to that point, it would be both a shame and an honorable endeavor.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
You know, if you want to argue that the financial system should be completely off limits to law enforcement and "follow the money" should be abandoned, definitely feel free to do that. Heck, maybe I'll be there arguing that along side you. Although it may not seem like it, I too appreciate the simplicity that comes with that approach.

The problem is, it's going to be a really tough argument to make, because law enforcement will have lots of examples of real cases where the technique worked. They will say, what about this case, or that case. How will we do our jobs if this tool is taken away from us?

The people listening to that debate will ultimately be politicians, who are trying to decide what to do with Bitcoin. They'll want to do whatever is most likely to get them re-elected. You know, they're faced with this system, how do they respond to it? So what happens if you can't manage to convince people (the voters) that "follow the money" is a fundamental infringement on peoples freedoms?

Well, you can propose a compromise solution in which "follow the money" is still possible, but designed such that it doesn't allow global surveillance or abuses of power by governments. Politicians are often open to such compromise solutions. Look at the DMCA. It balanced the needs of the content and tech industries via the safe harbor provisions: the whole thing is a giant compromise. So there is precedent for it.


By the way, I don't work on Google Wallet.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
One less reason to use google wallet....
sr. member
Activity: 461
Merit: 251
Yeah, probably I should have used the term hint list or something. People stop reading at the term blacklist and then start arguing with a proposal that wasn't made. The post from hazek just now being a good example of that ...
What I find kind of ironic about all of this is that the first time I'd heard a proposal similar to yours for using a linkable digital currency for decentralized crime fighting was from a prominent anarcho-capitalist named Stefan Molyneux.  I guess they're just more receptive when these ideas are coming from one of their own. Wink  Not to mention yours is vastly superior due to the cryptographic privacy guarantees.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
Yeah, probably I should have used the term hint list or something. People stop reading at the term blacklist and then start arguing with a proposal that wasn't made. The post from hazek just now being a good example of that ...

No matter which term you choose to sugarcoat it, it remains an incredibly dangerous idea.

Crime fighting by "following the money" is absolutely incompatible with free (as in freedom) transactions. As soon as you have a centralised way to make anonymity opt-in, it can potentially be enforced on everybody.


NO.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
Yeah, probably I should have used the term hint list or something. People stop reading at the term blacklist and then start arguing with a proposal that wasn't made. The post from hazek just now being a good example of that ...
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
I stopped reading this authotorative fantasy here:

Blacklist providers maintain sets of outputs that are blacklisted or tainted in some way


Hell NO.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 251
Dolphie Selfie
The proposal seems to be a good compromise as there are many arguments for and against it. What seems to be most misunderstood is the term "blacklist". As I understood it, it's not some kind of "filter", which tells you "Don't accept this coins! You won't be able to spend them!", but rather some kind of "hint" like "Hey, these coins have a shady history. Do you want to do something about that?". Nevertheless, I'm currently a bit skeptic about the list maintainance process. I think this is the weak link in the system, where some further thoughts are needed.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
Quote
The majority could switch a blacklist off, but if it didn't do it simultaneously, everyone who rejects the blacklist would put their business at stake by accepting coins that might remain tainted. If we used "whitelisting" like you suggest, we are effectively trusting another party to make blacklist decisions for us. If that's the case, it's no longer voluntary. If we're willing to do that, why not just allow the blacklists themselves to blacklist other blacklists? This would remove some of the confusion anyway.

I don't think so. Maybe I should have been clearer what the penalties are for not checking any given list - zero. So it wouldn't put your business at risk to accept coins that appear on some blacklist.

The basic assumption behind this kind of system is that if it works properly, people should volunteer to be a part of it, because it will correctly fight real criminals and won't be subject to abuse. Doing business in a lawless country is really hard, and that's the incentive for people to take part.

So if someone switches off a list and accepts some coins, then re-spends them on to someone who is still checking, OK, what does the recipient do? Well, they could do nothing. Or file a report saying "Bob Smith gave me coins that appeared on a blacklist" (and now the taint is cleared for people who trust you to take action for that blacklist). Bob Smith didn't do anything wrong though. He might get a visit from the police some time later and they'll ask him where he got the coins from. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

This might seem pointless, why would anyone co-operate with the police if they didn't have to? Well, because as I said, there's a lot of value to stopping really bad crimes. Running a shop is tough if people break in and steal your inventory every week.

Existing AML systems make reporting mandatory in some cases (over a particular threshold) or when you personally deem a transaction "suspicious". The reason is that the way AML works today is, all the costs fall on banks, and the costs are really high in terms of paperwork and so on. So banks are incentivized to not do it because that way they can undercut their competitors. If you have a very efficient system and the costs are spread out across all participants in the economy, then you shouldn't need coercion anymore.

A lot of replies here and on reddit are based on the assumption that governments will force people to check blacklists and so on, so my proposal is evil. But that's arguing with a proposal I have not made. It's a description of the existing system, which I agree has a lot of problems. My proposal is for a system that shares the same overall goals (keep crime in check) but doesn't have those problems and isn't subject to government abuse in the same way.

What stops governments passing new laws that aren't in my proposal? Nothing, of course. But they're much more likely to pass bad laws if nobody proposes better laws. I mean, politicians aren't going to come up with a system that uses crypto to limit the governments power.

Quote from: Dansker
Another aspect in this: Say we have 10 "tainted" bitcoins. The theif or w/e then sends them, in parts of 0.00001 to everyone and everybody, without prior warning. Do you want thousands of people to call the police all over the world then? Who is going to pay for all these peoples time? How do we know if they actually do it? What happens if they say they do, but don't? Do they get to keep the coins?

Just don't take any action and keep the coins. Even the existing AML systems have thresholds because police time is limited. It isn't worth chasing small transactions. So configure your wallet to ignore taint on transactions of less than a given value.

In the past the AML reporting thresholds (below which nobody cares) were pretty high. When the BSA was first passed they were about $50,000 in todays money. Unfortunately they were never adjusted for inflation and today $10,000 isn't as much as it once was. Also they've tried to push the thresholds down over time, but in the system I propose there wouldn't actually be any central regulators. The right thresholds to use would be decided by the participants.
hero member
Activity: 740
Merit: 500
Hello world!
Another aspect in this: Say we have 10 "tainted" bitcoins. The theif or w/e then sends them, in parts of 0.00001 to everyone and everybody, without prior warning.

Do you want thousands of people to call the police all over the world then? Who is going to pay for all these peoples time? How do we know if they actually do it? What happens if they say they do, but don't? Do they get to keep the coins?

What if the criminal sends his 10 btc to his own legitimate business as payment for a mock purchase, and then refuses to deliver to himself because he was paid in tainted coins? The coins are now no longer tainted, at no loss.

This is a disastrous idea, and you have yet to even address the issue of the fundamental loss of fungibility. This loss happens even if only say 10% of users use a blacklist, and will make sure that bitcoins are no longer equal to cash payments.
vip
Activity: 198
Merit: 101
How is the majority just switching off a blacklist different to democratically rejecting it? It's the same thing, no?

Also, remember the whitelisting aspect. Once the coins pass through someone who you trust to have done something reasonable, the taint is gone.

The majority could switch a blacklist off, but if it didn't do it simultaneously, everyone who rejects the blacklist would put their business at stake by accepting coins that might remain tainted. If we used "whitelisting" like you suggest, we are effectively trusting another party to make blacklist decisions for us. If that's the case, it's no longer voluntary. If we're willing to do that, why not just allow the blacklists themselves to blacklist other blacklists? This would remove some of the confusion anyway.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Why not just log every transaction which you know the other party? Much simpler way. The transactions are traceable mostly anyway.

Also I don't think there is any mechanism to reverse transactions. And not accepting bad transactions is unhealthy...
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
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