Topic: delete (Read 2683 times)

Any government standards like FISMA - http://csrc.nist.gov/
San's CIS Critical Security Controls - https://www.sans.org/critical-security-controls/

There are real frameworks out there that are valid.  I'm not trying to be rude.  I'm trying to keep this sounding the nicest way possible with being able to pass the information.  That is just some of the frameworks, there are MANY MANY more and compliance's security company's have to meet if dealing with US government.   

Yours are ideas for what you think is needed for government/military standards.  But you have nothing to back up that has been vetted and proven needed, or that it makes them comply with (insert tons of frameworks and compliance here).

I'm not the one making things up.  I asked a simple question and you dodged it.  Did you make up criteria for "9) Military-grade offline wallet storage"?  Is there really any documentation showing that you meet any military standards? If so which country and what standards?

It sounds like you made up things that sounded good to you.  But did not follow any real requirements.

But you are fantasyzing about about wild west scenarios.

There are no armed gangs roaming around streets and raiding places, where do you live in Somalia?

Even in the most crowded cities banks have 1 or 2 security guards, and bank robberies are rare too. You would imagine a post apocalyptic world where para-military gangs roam around and pillage everything. That is not what happens in the real world.

In the real world if you have 4-5 armed guards, nobody dares to attack it. You watch too many movies.

How can you say it's solid?  Have you used it.... guessing not.. all you have is a fictional story about it.  It keeps getting more and more far fetched to help anyone with storage.

You can do the back/forth all day.  For example on your last post sure even if you have all 100 percent honest guards what if a bigger group of bad guys decided to take it over and try to force your BTC info out of you... it makes no sense to go back and forth on scenarios like this.

How did you even come up with "Military-grade offline wallet storage"?  Is there set documentation on what it should be or did you make up what you thought should be?

I still say I would take a paper wallet only I know, or a hardware wallet only I know.   I don't wan't guards if I was doing huge amounts of money compared to what they pay.

Greed is a strong thing.  Sadly some fall into greed and you could easity have a bad security guard.  Imagine when the security guard figures out if he gets your BTC there is no reverse button... I hope you don't get anyone who greed shines it's head to.

I think most bitcoiners learned the lesson "Trust no one" (at least when it is in bitcoin area) the hard way. Having to trust someone is always an additional risk. Like having coins laying on an exchange. They might have a vault and all but still... risky.

And i think you miss that wolfs are pack animals. They hunt in packs. One mafioso speaking about all the money they guard and their measly wager they get each month. Well... i would not be so sure about the outcome.

If i would have to trust i think i would collect the persons by checking their personalities very carefully.

Sure, though they have insurance. And the fiat bills have to be physically moved. When exchanged they can be found via serial number. It is no fun washing such money... i imagine. No problem at all with bitcoin.


I think that theory is wrong. Blackwater... or The Rock, i believe, they are named now, hire such ex military. But these guys are EX for a reason. The end result is that the US government hires these soldiers to make war and these guys regularly are involved in killings of civilians and such things. These ex soldiers often enough are psychos or have some kind of problem.

Having to trust someone is always a risk

In reality you hear that the bank employees silently worked together with the bank robbers and similar things. Bank robbery nowadays is not rewarding. Normal banks rarely have more than 10k USD in their bank building and even then, all fiat bills are marked with serial number.

Stealing bitcoins is very easy instead when it comes to getting away.

Being hidden unknown still is safer. If you have to spend money then tell your surroundings that you hold shares of some company. They will believe it and be pleased. No attack vector opened.

Banks hold trillions of $$$ in their vaults, or if you dont like reversible ones, then check the gold exchanges.

Gold exchanges hold tons of gold in their vaults, none of them raided yet.

I think you guys watch too many movies, in reality nobody dares to raid a compound full of armed guards.

I think the guy with the hardware wallet or properly done paper wallet and stored in good location like bank is just about as secure as most need.  I think it comes down to cold vs hot wallet. Even if you have a bunker your relying on guards who I would assume make much less then what is being stored.  As long as there is greed there is a chance of them going "bad"

I like mine to only rely on myself.  I see bank as ok as for the level of security it's hard to beat price for a security deposit box.    

But I kinda agree with shorena it's kinda hard to have a discussion.  It seems a little adversarial which is not healthy for a discussion.

I get that, but I am not sure if you understand why. You have no attack scenario so you cant properly judge the defenses. As SebastianJu pointed out, if are rich enough to set up a bunker + guard for your bitcoins you will have to consider attackers willing and able to cut your fingers off[1]. It does not even make sense to compare #9 to #1.

Anyway, I will not further pester your thread with my criticism.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4396831.stm

Actually i think 9 is less secure than others. Because you are publicly showing up yourself as someone who has something to hide. I'm sure satoshi has no heavily guarded fault. And he is the richest bitcoiner alive. And he probably is way more safe than the operator of a big mining farm. Even with guarded vault.

I think having guards only will raise suspicion and attract thieves. Put the guards to sleep with gas and you can move on. Or especially in the bitcoin area... buy anonymous a hit team and let them  raid the vault.

I think the best protection would be that nobody knows you are rich. You take care about your privacy and prevent your bitcoin addresses to be connectable to you. You can hide your private key everywhere. Your whole computer is full of data where you could hide a privkey without anybody ever being able to find it.

Of course when you run a business and everybody knows you and your company then it might be something to consider.

Haven't you guys seen how easily a disc of data may be stolen from a military grade secure bunker in Mission Impossible ?

For owners of valuable but not priceless data such as a few hundred bitcoins, I suggest that you set up an Electrum Wallet on a new install of linux (preferably raspbian on a raspberry pi) and use a poem which you will remember or something comparable which you won't forget over many years as the encryption passphrase.  Transfer your BTCthere and wait for the transaction to confirm.

If you want to hoard much of your BTCfor a few weeks or months then a raspberryPi is small and cheap enough that you can lock it in the safe next to the bars of bullion and just not use it for that long.  If you know that you want to hoard BTCfor years then pull out the sd card from the raspberryPi and permanently erase or destroy all that is on it.  Unlike a pc with bios, raspberryPi is stateless hardware, meaning that the sd card is the only persistent data storage on it.  To fully recover your BTC, procedure is to install electrum on something which you trust and enter that same passphrase.  If you are being really careful then you can buy a new 4GB sd card to do this on and erase it afterwoods.  After a few minutes online to synch, your BTCare recovered from only the passphrase.  I think the devs came up with a snazzy name like "deterministic wallet generation" to mean that you can throw your computing hardware into the fiery bits of Mt Etna, just so long as you remember the passphrase.

Of course, if you do own all the money in the world or a priceless list of military contacts, then you have to beware of lovely ladies with foreign accents who demand "tell me the poem"


If anyone wants to spend a BTCto get me to do all or part of this for you, just pm me.


Now, how does "remember the poem" compare to 1-9 listed in the first post of this thread ?

Look it can be secured, relative to the level of paranoia.

There is always the possibility that an invisible goblin will watch the keystrokes when you enter your bitcoin wallet password, so what does it matter ?

So this discussion is pointless. There will be alway an attack vector. However method 9) is still the most secure and the odds of theft become so low, that you will have a higher chance of falling off the stairs and dying than to lose the bitcoins if you secure it properly, so at that point it doesnt matter.

More people die from car accidents than those that lose their bitcoin from bunker

So the videotape is protected better than the room with the computer?

If you have a fortified compound with armed guards, I dont think anybody will attack you

However if you do hold a lot of bitcoins, and somehow other people will know about it, and if you dont hire some armed guards, then it will be the biggest danger. All billionaires have a private army protecting them.


Those have different roles.

In my situation, the cameras serve the role of checking if the room has been entered without authorization.

For example: 1 infiltrator enters the saferoom to install some transmitter on your secure PC, that will leak the private key to him when you use it.

If you videotape the room all day, and check the footage before you use the PC, then you will not use the PC if it has been tampered with, and will replace it with a clean PC, and copy all data into that. Then burn the tampered PC.

Fingerprint you say?
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ
-> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/12/politicians-fingerprint-reproduced-using-photos-of-her-hands/


Like the cameras in public transport systems or banks that dont actually prevent the crime?

Fingerprint detector... normal ones easily cheatable with a bit of tesa and glue. And i would not want to risk that some thug cuts away my finger so that he can get into the vault. Even when the reader is detecting blood motion... it can be faked and was faked already. I would fear for my health with these kind of systems.

But you dont let the guards inside the room, only you can access the room with fingerprint detector.

The guards are only there to guard the entrance.

And the room would be surveiled + movement detectors, so that nobody but you can go there undetected.