Topic: "Deportation vs. the Cost of Letting Illegal Immigrants Stay" - page 2. (Read 678 times)

And? Your argument is a non-sequitur. We are talking about immigration policy, not the military. I don't have to support or oppose the status quo to make my argument, the fact is, it is. Your "what ifs" are meaningless and a diversion from the topic.

Resources are finite, and are in fact stretched thin as well as being poorly allocated. Your goal is irrelevant. You might have a goal of trimming your hair with a blowtorch, but the fact is the most likely scenario is you will set your head on fire. The fact that you intended just to trim your hair is irrelevant because your methodology is flawed. No one deserves anything, "what people deserve" is a bullshit metric which is totally meaningless and arbitrary. You have a right to free speech. You do not have a right to food, the property and work of others AKA a commodity. You have a right to defend yourself and your property using firearms if need be. You do not have a right to healthcare, which is again composed of the property, time, and resources of others. You have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You do not have a right to education, which is once more composed of the property and time of others. Are you noticing a theme here? Actual rights restrict the government or other individuals from acting upon you in certain ways. Rights are not entitlements to property, resources, and the time of others. Having rights to the time of others is also known as slavery. Coincidentally that is the end result of your moronic Marxist policies once they inevitably reach their end point of degradation and a functional society again needs to be rebuilt in its ashes after great bloodshed.

Again, your theoretical potential long term unproven and not guaranteed long term benefits are meaningless. Your head could technically turn into a mushroom, but this is neither guaranteed nor likely. You simply declaring it as such is just your fantasizing about what could be, coincidentally that is if the laws of economics magically don't apply. You lecture me about "the big picture" while you obsess over alleviating short term suffering at the expense of the destruction of the foundations of our society itself. You are chopping off your feet and stacking them on your head because you think it makes you look taller, then you bleed to death a few minutes later because of your short shortsightedness. I always cared about education and healthcare, that is why I think people like you should be kept as far away as possible from being involved in these kind of policy decisions, because your ideology is a cancer on society.

Marxism is a tumor fed by good the intents by masses of ignorant and easily manipulated people. It is a form of collective narcissism where these ignorant masses, devoid of any kind of meaning in their life, seek to create it by advocating for causes which superficially sound great. The unfortunate truth is that these people are devoid of meaning because they don't want to actually spend actual effort learning about these subjects, and simply regurgitate what people who they perceive as having authority have told them to. Then they all stand around and reassure each other of how good and correct they all are in their ideology. In short they want to feel good about themselves while exhibiting the minimal amount of effort.

The USA already takes in more immigrants than any country on Earth. "making it easier" is just a euphemism for making illegal immigration legal. It is illegal for MANY good reasons. The economy is not imaginary. The culture of the USA is not imaginary. Neither of those things, among others, can be maintained without enforcing a national border. Again, you just find another way to call me selfish and racist by another name. "points of view" are not racist. Ideas can not practice racism. People do. This is just another pathetic crutch that people like you must use because you lack any actual argument to defend your position, therefore you must attack the character of your opponent by associating them with "undesirables".
The USA was a much different place when Ellis Island was open, furthermore even there they had a process where people were quarantined and documented, and numbers incoming controlled. Illegal immigration is illegal for good reasons, I don't advocate enforcing our borders just because it is the law. Nice invocation of the Nazis you slipped in there BTW, always a sign of a strong argument.






No one here is advocating getting rid of all immigrants. The title clearly says "illegal immigrants". You, much like most of the modern Marxist left try to conflate illegal immigration with all immigration in a pathetic attempt to relate the issue to racism or xenophobia rather than economics, laws, and a functional society we all benefit from. Tell me some more about logic as your own statements are completely vacant of it.

jeah look at brexit britain what is happening there

Thread's logic;

"Let's remove immigrants from the land of immigrants"

Ya know, without immigrants, our GDP would be 0   

Yes, we certainly do.

And no, they don't have a right.

We are providing expensive security for people and places much further away.  These people are on our doorstep.  If our resources were ever close to being stretched too thing, then we would need to go back to letting our military be about defense and close all the bases around the world and bring home the 165,000 troops stationed in 150 countries.  Thats a ton of resources going to provide security to a lot of people who are better off than many Americans.  

Just because I said our resources aren't stretched too thin doesn't mean I think they are properly allocated.  Suddenly now you care about education, housing and healthcare for people here when those are things I've been pushing for in nearly every thread and you have been the main one claiming everyone doesn't deserve those things.  
As you can see from the original quote on top, my goal has always been to help both.  I don't separate people as immigrants vs americans and think they all deserve things I consider human rights.  The cool part is that once they have education and healthcare, they will be in a position where they will work, expand the economy and more than carry their weight in taxes. You've gotta think about the big picture.  
but even now you have an imaginary border around the people you want the best for.  caring only about people who are in your family, close to you, or in your geographic region is only a small expansion from only caring about yourself.   "Fuck everyone who happened to be born outside of that imaginary boundary" is your POV and theres a difference between being a racist and holding a racist point of view. I wouldn't say you are racist based on this point of view but I wouldn't rule it out either.  
I'm all for reforming the system so that these people have a legal way to flow into the country.  If we made legal immigration from the South easier and more accessible for people in duress, we could be harsh on illegal immigrants.  You don't get to decide if their claim to asylum should be approved.  They have a right to come here, enter, and claim it.   Ellis Island had a 98% acceptance rate and granted citizenship within as little as a few hours and no more than a few weeks.  That should show you that Immigration from poverty could be a lot easier than it is today

[THEY] are the wealthy capitaiist class who set the rules and benefit from turning working class people against each other.  They are the ones who are sucking up all of the resources.  They are the reason why people in the richest country in the history of the world go without adequate housing, healthcare or education.  Keeping poor people from central America out wouldn't alleviate that one bit.   Its a separate fight.  Just because something is legal/illegal doesn't make it right. Nuremburg laws were legal, slavery was legal.  Stop using legality as an argument.  Might does not mean right.

What the fuck are you talking about? US military an intelligence services are trying to feed, house, and medically treat everyone on Earth? Yeah, k. These people have come here to escape POVERTY and they are illegally abusing the ASYLUM process designed for people ACTUALLY escaping conflict in order to migrate here for ECONOMIC reasons. Not enforcing out nations borders is wholly irresponsible, and the situation of other nations and its resident nationals is NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE USA. Just allowing millions of impoverished people to flood in is not going to help them and it certainly is not going to help the already existing residents of the USA, and fuck you for putting them above everyone already here as you wag your finger bathed in your self righteousness. It is easy to be generous with every one else's resources isn't it?

Our resources aren't stretched thin? Is this the kind of economic genius you applied to calling anyone who makes more than $300k a year "super wealthy". Don't have any argument? Just lie and pretend there is no problem, problem solved. I am sure the teachers teaching overfilled classes filled with illegal immigrant children would agree we have plenty of resources. I am sure the millions of homeless already here on the streets would agree our resources aren't stretched thin as well. Fuck everyone who needs help already here right? It is your right to take those collective resources and hand them out to people who never paid into our system! After all, you think any form of nationalism is fascist, so the nation should fall according to you shouldn't it? Also it makes you feel generous, and that is what is most important, that you feel good about yourself right?

Emotions are not a substitute for logic, and you can't make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result to inflate MY ego and make ME feel most generous?" This isn't just what is best for me, this is what is best for the whole fucking country, and fuck you very much with your moral grand standing. I never said anything about "all immigrants", here you are purposely conflating all immigration with illegal immigration again to try to turn this into a race issue. First of all it is a fact illegal immigrants take more from they system than they put in. A FACT. It has nothing to do with race or even nationality. Second of all, xenophobia is just a synonym for racism, so again, you are just calling me racist because I think our nation should have borders that are enforced.


Who the fuck is "they"? Most people who don't like illegal immigration aren't angry at illegal immigrants. If they are angry at anyone they are angry at people like YOU being so magnanimous and generous with all of our collective resources on their behalf. Is it really generous if you are giving away something some one else sacrificed for or are you just a destructive virtue signalling narcissist encouraging this rightfully illegal activity?

See this is what [THEY] want.  Instead of being angry at the people making you pay a fine, you are angry at other poor people who are in a worse position than you.  In reality, everyone should be getting the healthcare for free and no one should be paying fines but its better for them to tricking you into  scapegoating immigrants.

Finally someone speaks some reality.
Im getting tired of hearing all this leftist talk of open border policies making America the new gold rush opportunity...

While im getting fined for having NO healthcare, these illegals get it for free? Dafuq?

Our communities have problems already not getting fixed. Adding all these illegals is jist rediculous

US should scale up their deportation efforts to bring the costs down.

BTW, there is no such thing as illegal immigration. Immigration is a legal process to obtain residency.

What we are talking about is illegal border crossers, not illegal immigration.  They should be charged and deported. End of story.

In the USA, if a man stands in the courts as a man, harm or damage must be proven against him. Not so with a person. A person is under all the rest of the laws if the judge says so. The judge will always try to bring a man into the status of a person... under his control.

This goes for illegals. If they knew it, they could talk the judge into letting them stay.

immigrants only work as long as there is a police that protects property, nations form according to politicial allignment

our human understanding of "geographic states" is fading away.

Great system right? We're arresting people, telling them on a court date that ICE is going to come and deport them and then most people don't show up. We've wasted tons of resources with the judge, the ICE members involved in arresting him originally and then the ICE members going to get him at the end.

There's no reason for this sort of system if ICE knows that this person is being deported. What should be done is you should send them to the deportation facility INSTANTLY. No BS in between.

OR at least get a judge on the line ASAP to determine if the person is going to be deported. Either ICE loves job security and wants to waste tons of time, or US POLITICIANS (DEMOCRATS) are the ones at fault.

We also have another issue in the US, the fact that US businesses need to be heavily penalized for hiring illegal immigrants (if they do so knowingly)

It's ridiculous how it works, I had a friend when I used to work at McDonald's who was caught here illegally. They put him in jail and there was a date that ICE could come and deport him, otherwise they would let him go. He stayed in county jail for 3 months and then was taken on the last day. So not only were dollars funneled into holding him in a cell, but then they ultimately deported him anyway, its just ridiculous and stupid system.

You're going to be really upset when you find out what the US military and intelligence services have been trying to do all over the planet.  
 

We aren't talking about everyone on the planet.  The US government's job is to care for everyone in the US and these people have come to the US mostly to escape danger or otherwise unlivable conditions.  That is why they have to come here on their own.  Its not our job to bring them here but now that they are here, we need to make the best of a bad situation.    Taking people who have sought refuge in this country and placing them back into danger is wholly irresponsible and only makes the situation worse.  
Its an emotional argument. Intelligence without emotions like guilt, self-doubt and remorse is psychopathic.  Of course emotions dictate everything I do.  Morals and ethics need to be put first.  People caring about everyone else involved. Thats the basis for a functioning society.  You can't just use logic to make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result for me?"

Our resources aren't stretched then. We've barely tapped into them.  This is the richest nation in the history of the world. People are suffering because of hoarding.  We can take in immigrants AND create programs that reduce suffering for all people here.  You should know better than anyone that I am advocating for both.   Stop using immigrants as a scapegoat.  

I didn't say you were a racist I said assuming all immigrants will be a liftetime drain is a racist/xenophobic point of view.

Sorry, but you aren't a Jedi Knight, and those are the illegal alien droids we are looking for. It is observable fact it is cheaper. You don't even know what to say to that is another way of saying you are wrong but still insist on arguing for your ideology in absence of a logical argument. It is not the US taxpayers or the US government's job to care for EVERY FUCKING PERSON on the planet. That is not just an insane abuse against everyone who lives here legally and pays into that system, but totally not logistically possible.

You are just pulling rabbits out of your ass to imagineer some unnamed unquanitfiable benefit that maybe might manifest in the far off future while the people here now are struggling with resources already stretched thin. You are literally making people here in this nation suffer so that you can feel better about yourself like a revolting self centered piece of virtue signalling shit as you accuse me of being racist to cover up for your complete ignorance. You are motivated only by emotion and logic is secondary if it is considered at all. Emotion doesn't fill bellies and keep people warm, logic does.

Its not cheaper.

You're arguing that 46,500 for 2 months is cheaper than 65,000 for a lifetime.   Yes its a smaller number but I don't even know what to say to that.

Even if we assume they magically get through the courts (225,000 case backlog right now) and get deported, they are simply back where they started.  Nothing has been achieved/produced and all problems still exist.  All that money is literally wasted.  

The lifetime number actually accomplishes getting these people to safety, helping to solve the actual problem, and producing contributors to society.  Financial costs aren't the only costs but you aren't adding in all the money they and the kids will pay in taxes once they get better education which is difficult to calculate.   You're just assuming all immigrants will be a lifetime drain on society which is a racist/xenophobic pov.

I'd leave them there until they turn around and go back.

Yes lets look closer at the NBC article:

"The cost of holding migrant children who have been separated from their parents in newly created "tent cities" is $775 per person per night, according to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services"

Unnamed "officials" are well known sources of reliable information are they? First of all you are wrong and pretending as if the fact that it is cheaper to deport them BY YOUR OWN NUMBERS is inconsequential. Second you extrapolate out extra costs for deportation other than what was included. That works both ways. The number was a VERY conservative estimate of costs for a LIFETIME of government entitlements like healthcare, food stamps, HUD subsidies, education, infrastructure wear, law enforcement, and on and on and on which are not all included in this "life time" number. You are wrong by your own numbers. You then defaulting to more arguments from a position of emotional manipulation doesn't change the situation either. These children are forced into this situation by the people who bring them here illegally, not the government. Using the word "torture" is way beyond hyperbole and is simply just a lie you came up with to distract from your total failure of an argument and your inability to meet the standards of your own premise.

As I already explained, there is a certain point where more money into education is not going to yield better results. Some people are simply unwilling, or incapable of being educated. Furthermore the burden on the existing educational system is extremely detrimental as everyone already here has all of their resources stretched very thin to compensate for all of the new people pumped into an already overburdened system, resulting in less people actually being educated total. The fact that you call yourself an educator is evidence enough that the education system is a joke and largely a fraud, and that money goes to paying Marxist ideologues like you to indoctrinate people instead of teaching them valuable skills like critical thinking, logic, and scientific method.

The 775 number was in the GQ link I posted.  Page 12 of that document had old data suggesting 34-44 days but those numbers were missing in the chart for recent years.

Lets look further at the NBC source that was cited in the GQ article
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
775 x 60 = 46,500.

So we are already over 2/3rd of the lifetime cost of absorbing a low-education immigrant after just 2 months of detention.  That is still  before legal costs and doesn't even mention that the children are placed in foster care for the rest of the pending time which also has costs.

Keep in mind, that these are not costs to produce something or have some sort of end product.  These are simply the financial costs to torture children in concentration camps.  The moral and psychological costs are much higher.  

I'd much rather spend that money building people up instead of tearing them down.
No I literally said universal education would be great for everyone.  If these monies were being spent on making free education available for everyone, spots would already be available for immigrants to fill.  Instead of scrambling to open up new detention facilities, we could educate the extra people at a significantly lower cost than torturing them.  As your article demonstrates, everyone benefits from more people with more education.  

lol the feds can't arrest gislhaine maxwell, do you think they can solve that? hehehe... dream... or  gaz light under the orange swine spell...