I believe greed is the variable you guys are trying to control here. Just because the rich can do it does'nt always mean they will imho. If its not worth their time. However we are seeing bitcoin going from a hobby to a business now. So the players motivations are changing. This is the problem you guys need to address here.
Look at how actual agricultural farming has evolved and is it any coincidence that terminology is being used for coin mining now?
Topic: DESIGNING the next generation FAST CRYPTO CURRENCY MINING MACHINE - page 4. (Read 22988 times)
April 21, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
April 21, 2013, 05:24:47 PM
You are right, I favor AMD to BFL. I favor a useful tool like a GPU to a dedicated tool which has no other purpose. I am not convinced, though, that big money can win against scrypt so easily but I've only begun to read it. How are you proposing we get Turtle involved if he cannot do it with his home machine? Is the Only answer to BUY something from Avalon? There is no longer a solution for the average joe? I think there must be a way for Joe or we are always at the mercy of the "richest" guy (who I'm going to fantasize is Vlad). In the end when bitcoins are worth 1 quintillion dollars US each are you going to let Vlad be the only maker of coin? Isn't that what we are trying to avoid here (a centralized bank)?. Out of curiosity I wonder if anyone has actually gone to AMD or NVidia and made a pitch. Honestly a company that size is the only who can create the next level ASIC as best I can tell.
April 21, 2013, 05:22:36 PM
How then does the 'average Joe' at home get involved without needing to buy specialized hardware?
Who says the "average joe" at home needs to be mining? There are tons of other ways to get involved with Bitcoin. And I don't know that an scrypt-based solution will be much better. The problem you're trying to solve is not one of "off-the-shelf" v.s. "custom," but one of "capital" v.s. "no/little capital." Even under scrypt, the wealthy will have an advantage and will eventually squeeze out the "average joe."
On top of this, you seem to be overlooking the fact that almost 100% of the mining hardware, pre-FPGA, came from AMD. That means AMD was basically the central point for the Bitcoin mining community, just as Avalon and BFL are now, except AMD never had any kind of stake in the fate of Bitcoin...
April 21, 2013, 04:22:38 PM
^^This is exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody here, other than Inaba, would suggest Turtle needs to buy an ASIC to play... right?
April 21, 2013, 04:21:22 PM
I don't know much about embedded/FPGA/ASIC, but I could help out with higher level tasks. testing, Linux things, automation, coding... and i always wanted to get into hardware hacking... so this is a good opportunity.
I missed out on the whole bitcoin wave, and since last few weeks I have been procrastinating on the concept of crypto(and p2p) currency -- not to get rich quick or something... but more so for political reasons.
Will watch the progress of this project for something I can contribute.
I missed out on the whole bitcoin wave, and since last few weeks I have been procrastinating on the concept of crypto(and p2p) currency -- not to get rich quick or something... but more so for political reasons.
Will watch the progress of this project for something I can contribute.
April 21, 2013, 04:13:39 PM
>Should we really be using "mining operations" that require wasted energy?
From a system builders perspective, yes. Building a machine to solve this puzzle is fun and conceptually interesting. Keeping an overheated computer running is a challenge, and one that I think people enjoy. Part of my point is that as we move away from these PC's and make this a specialized game we lose a large part of what bitcoin really is (a bunch of geeks mining coins and selling them to people who want to pretend they are anonymous as we await real adoption by a real retailer). That idea is what brought me here and losing that idea will drive me away. So whatever you design it sure as hell needs to involve a geek and a computer. (I like FPGA solutions WAY more than ASICS because you are still dealing with an individual geek... as opposed to having to deal with Inaba's ego.). This is just my opinion and I may take it down in a bit. I am really here to learn from others... not tell the world what I think. I'm not about wasting energy.. I just like what bitcoin has been for me.
From a system builders perspective, yes. Building a machine to solve this puzzle is fun and conceptually interesting. Keeping an overheated computer running is a challenge, and one that I think people enjoy. Part of my point is that as we move away from these PC's and make this a specialized game we lose a large part of what bitcoin really is (a bunch of geeks mining coins and selling them to people who want to pretend they are anonymous as we await real adoption by a real retailer). That idea is what brought me here and losing that idea will drive me away. So whatever you design it sure as hell needs to involve a geek and a computer. (I like FPGA solutions WAY more than ASICS because you are still dealing with an individual geek... as opposed to having to deal with Inaba's ego.). This is just my opinion and I may take it down in a bit. I am really here to learn from others... not tell the world what I think. I'm not about wasting energy.. I just like what bitcoin has been for me.
April 21, 2013, 04:00:38 PM
Another, perhaps more philosophical question. Should we really be using "mining operations" that require wasted energy? It just doesn't seem to make sense to make zillions upon zillions of calculations, just to be able to create a quasi-physical (here crypto) currency to put into circulation... Is there really no other alternatives or ideas how to go about this?
April 21, 2013, 03:56:45 PM
April 21, 2013, 03:56:35 PM
I could design a cool looking rig if needed, depending on components I could design to help airflow and other features needed. Below is sample of my BitPhantom mining rig design concept, I am currently working on a more lightweight consumer version. http://www.owenprescott.com/blog-bitcoin-mining-hardware.php
April 21, 2013, 03:50:49 PM
Interesting thread. I had a brief look at the original Scrypt paper (which is quite old), but it was not obvious to what is meant with making memory intensive tasks more expensive. I'd like to see this quantified using numbers with today's memory technology. In addition it was even stated in the paper that one of the limits were based on 2-dimensional memory ingots, which we know will change in the next couple of years, to become 3-dimensional blocks of some electro-optical substrate. This is will have to effect of increasing memory size with x3 instead of x2 for the same price. Now, if there's another way of mining that we could think of, that could avoid the mining growing pains into adulthood, that would be very interesting.
April 21, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Experience. "Bitcoin transactions are instant - the confirmations aren't. It usually takes less than an hour for the first confirmation." There is no such thing as a "low value" transaction... Milk is NOT free and if buyers use bitcoin you are asking the merchant to risk being robbed... else hold his customer for an hour.
It will be long before we can expect people to use Bitcoin for groceries, but setting this aside, given precautions I mentioned few posts above the risk becomes largely mitigated and acceptable for low-value transactions (I can be struck by a lightning any time I am outside, does that mean I shouldn't leave my room?)
Are you sure it's worth it?
It's CERTAINLY worth having a discussion, yes.I wasn't clear enough, discussion, sure, but do you really believe it's worth to design & build an ASIC for scrypt in the foreseeable future?
only those with the best economies of scale will remain in business with profit margins decreasing.
As a "rich American" I find this logic flawed. People who cannot (or will not) afford ASICs will STILL want to mine. Crypto Currency is about MASS adoption. If only Vlad is mining then everyone else will migrate elsewhere.Gold is used widely in the world and people still use it despite the fact that only a few can afford to mine it themselves (nothing stops people from buying it). Bitcoin will someday (hopefully) become widely used like paypal but already now people who use Bitcoin actually buy it (or offer goods/services for BTC) because not everyone wants to bother/can afford/has time/is technically knowledgeable enough with setting up a mining operation (like with gold). Bitcoin, like gold, is used due to its advantages over fiat, not because ''it's a money-making machine''. The ''money'' part is only there to secure the network, Bitcoin is about financial independence from the state and middlemen.
April 21, 2013, 03:33:41 PM
No. Small farms can use ASICs too.
I did the math above and can't figure out what a "small asic farm" is. How many GH/s? Or do we need to "bank" on btc shooting to the moon?
How then does the 'average Joe' at home get involved without needing to buy specialized hardware?
They don't. But nothing stops the average Joe from buying specialized hardware.I think this is wrong. This is a flaw in the fundamental design which forces centralization to "industrial bank-like entities" where decentralization and every person in the world mining on their own system should be the driver. Let me ruminate on this a bit.
* Viceroy turns to the peanut gallery and whispers
I'm TRYING to figure out a "play" here. I believe that miners, like me, will conclude that LiteCoin is a better bet for them and further I believe that people will be driven away from BFL. Avalon is amazing and I can't wait to see what people do with their 450,000 chips that just went to press but I think the small guy will NOT buy into the ASIC concept if Inaba remains the voice of that solution. Building an ASIC solution is simply out of the question at this point, just go buy the Avalon chips if you think that approach makes sense. That assumes you are less well capitalized than Intel. (Watch Joel's answers... he's smart). April 21, 2013, 03:17:21 PM
Not sure where you are from but reading doesn't hurt 
For low-value transactions no waiting is necessary.
Experience. "Bitcoin transactions are instant - the confirmations aren't. It usually takes less than an hour for the first confirmation." There is no such thing as a "low value" transaction... Milk is NOT free and if buyers use bitcoin you are asking the merchant to risk being robbed... else hold his customer for an hour. For low-value transactions no waiting is necessary.Are you sure it's worth it?
It's CERTAINLY worth having a discussion, yes. Particularly about this:
I like scrypt but it is still relatively new and I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a flaw
only those with the best economies of scale will remain in business with profit margins decreasing.
As a "rich American" I find this troubling. People who cannot (or will not) afford ASICs will STILL want to mine. Crypto Currency is about MASS adoption. If only Vlad is mining then everyone else will migrate elsewhere. So Vlad mines Bitcoin and the rest of the world moves to some other currency they *think* cannot be beaten with an ASIC.
April 21, 2013, 03:14:20 PM
It should take 10 minutes with a transaction fee
Not sure where you are from but 10 minutes waiting at a cash register is unacceptable in American commerce. So if you are third in line it will take 1/2 hour to buy milk.
Not sure where you are from but reading doesn't hurt
For low-value transactions no waiting is necessary.So I'd like to begin a discussion about building a device that solves the scrypt proof of work. And so we need to start with a rudminetary understanding. Here it is in all it's wikipedia glory
Are you sure it's worth it? I like scrypt but it is still relatively new and I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a flaw in it that would render it less safe, after all it is as old as Bitcoin (created in 2009) and also created by only 1 guy (although Satoshi did use some other peoples' ideas and consulted them). If the flaw requires a change of an algorithm in Litecoin, all those expensive ASICs will become useless.
It will be a long before it will be worth to invest so much money to design & manufacture an ASIC for scrypt.
We all knew that ASIC's were only printing gold if you were the first one to get one. GPU farms prior to ASICS managed in some fashion to centralize mining. Someone with a thousand cards made far more then someone with ten. But it didn't stop anyone. I don't see how things have changed. The landscape has restarted and we all need to buy ASICs. I surely will, even if it's not the money-printer I was hoping that it would be.
+1
As Bitcoin gained in popularity the barrier for 'an average Joe' became too high already without any ASICs. Until recent price increases a lot of people wouldn't have been able to afford to mine with their electricity costs and often hardware costs (in US GPUs are cheap, especially 2nd hand). Difficulty is growing and when it stabilizes with price, only those with the best economies of scale will remain in business with profit margins decreasing.
April 21, 2013, 03:06:35 PM
I don't quite get the point about why ASIC's kill bitcoin. Mining was always going to trend towards being a razor thin profit business where only the largest make any sort of real profit (once the price of bitcoin stabilizes- if it goes to $10.000 each then these calculations are a little off 
)
Its true there is a big opening at the moment for ASIC companies to centralize mining- and they will indeed. But companies like BFL seem like they are focused on getting as many ASICS into the hands of the general public as possible. We all knew that ASIC's were only printing gold if you were the first one to get one. GPU farms prior to ASICS managed in some fashion to centralize mining. Someone with a thousand cards made far more then someone with ten. But it didn't stop anyone. Now we just all have to buy asics and we have to give up on the argument of "if bitcoin fails at least you have a sweet GPU for gaming).
I don't see how things have changed. The landscape has restarted and we all need to buy ASICs. I surely will, even if it's not the money-printer I was hoping that it would be.
Building ASICS for Scrypt is interesting, and it's only a matter of time (if litecoins price rises at least). I'll stay tuned.
) Its true there is a big opening at the moment for ASIC companies to centralize mining- and they will indeed. But companies like BFL seem like they are focused on getting as many ASICS into the hands of the general public as possible. We all knew that ASIC's were only printing gold if you were the first one to get one. GPU farms prior to ASICS managed in some fashion to centralize mining. Someone with a thousand cards made far more then someone with ten. But it didn't stop anyone. Now we just all have to buy asics and we have to give up on the argument of "if bitcoin fails at least you have a sweet GPU for gaming).
I don't see how things have changed. The landscape has restarted and we all need to buy ASICs. I surely will, even if it's not the money-printer I was hoping that it would be.
Building ASICS for Scrypt is interesting, and it's only a matter of time (if litecoins price rises at least). I'll stay tuned.
April 21, 2013, 02:54:38 PM
It should take 10 minutes with a transaction fee that isn't too low and with a few measures* instant 0-confirmation transaction can be relatively safe and used for transactions of, say, less than $1000 (given the resources required to double-spend if appropriate precautions were taken by the merchant, accepting 0-confirmation transaction for low-value goods can be safe).
*connections only to previously whitelisted and known honest nodes, no outgoing connections (UPnP off), etc.
*connections only to previously whitelisted and known honest nodes, no outgoing connections (UPnP off), etc.
Lets not forget the other strength of scrypt base crypto called litecoin. The difficulty re-target is much more quicker. I always have seen litecoin as the little brother of bitcoin but if this hypothesis is true then litecoin could be come the new bitcoin. I can seethis happening if the barrier of asics not being able to mine litecoin is circumvented. Litecoin was considered gpu proof at one time.
April 21, 2013, 02:45:43 PM
It should take 10 minutes with a transaction fee
Not sure where you are from but 10 minutes waiting at a cash register is unacceptable in American commerce. So if you are third in line it will take 1/2 hour to buy milk.
April 21, 2013, 02:39:41 PM
It should take 10 minutes with a transaction fee that isn't too low and with a few measures* instant 0-confirmation transaction can be relatively safe and used for transactions of, say, less than $1000 (given the resources required to double-spend if appropriate precautions were taken by the merchant, accepting 0-confirmation transaction for low-value goods can be safe).
*connections only to previously whitelisted and known honest nodes, no outgoing connections (UPnP off), etc.
*connections only to previously whitelisted and known honest nodes, no outgoing connections (UPnP off), etc.
April 21, 2013, 02:26:28 PM
How then does the 'average Joe' at home get involved without needing to buy specialized hardware?
They don't. But nothing stops the average Joe from buying specialized hardware.Quote
doesn't forcing people to buy asics destroy the decentralization in favor of large farms?
No. Small farms can use ASICs too.Quote
do you not expect these now burned early adopters to migrate to another algorithm and start spreading the word of a better/faster crypto currency?
If there's a better/faster crypto-currency, then Bitcoin deserves to lose to it. However, ASIC-based mining is a strength, not a weakness.Quote
And is my math right? we need a billion transistors and $50 million to build a terra hashing sha chip, right?
I haven't done the math, but that seems reasonable. April 21, 2013, 01:56:12 PM
The way i see the Op:
1.Bitcoin will die because of the ASIC invasion.
2.People will move to an asic-hostile cypto currency most likely litecoin.
3.Help me be among the first to build a litecoin ASIC mining machine so we can kill Litecoin as well while making some money in the way.
Bonus:Op not only predicts a shift towards litecoin mining but also recommends people "to point their gear to litecoins" because they are ASIC-hostile.
1.Bitcoin will die because of the ASIC invasion.
2.People will move to an asic-hostile cypto currency most likely litecoin.
3.Help me be among the first to build a litecoin ASIC mining machine so we can kill Litecoin as well while making some money in the way.
Bonus:Op not only predicts a shift towards litecoin mining but also recommends people "to point their gear to litecoins" because they are ASIC-hostile.
yes but 3 only works if 1 and 2 are true. is there something wrong with this line of question in an attempt to learn?
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