Topic: Did China just legalize Bitcoin, clarify regulation, for its free market use? - page 4. (Read 11160 times)

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 03:19:42 PM

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

There are governments that interfere more and less. I happen to live where they steal more than 50% of your income if you add income tax, vat and property tax.
You seem to be a person who lives obeying the rules enforced by the "authorities" and don't want any changes. They tell you to pay taxes - you pay, then the taxes grow and you still pay, then they make you borrow in the banks so you can be their debt slave but you won't protest because that's how the system works, right?
Do you really think a system that enforces taxes anywhere it can is just? I am not against all taxes, people should give something to the community, but income tax is among the most unjust, it punishes people for being smart and creative so the ones that have bigger gains have to contribute more - this is ridiculous. Governments write in their constitutions that all men are equal, and yet they are not equally taxed, where's the logic in that. But this is going off topic.

No I dont believe that taxes are just. But the reality is that most people do and pay obidiently. Thats why government has power in the first place. Again cryptocurrencies wont bring down government.

Those brief replies Wink

But they can allow you to get some goods and services anonymously. Let's say you write a program or create a website for someone and get paid in BTC, he has a broken pipe and pays a plumber to fix it with these btc, the plumber buys a used phone from his friend again with btc. Wouldn't that work? I'm not talking about big businesses employing thousands of people. I'm talking about John selling Judy his silver coin collection. Why the hell not use BTC for that?

Now you must already realize that for 1) large businesses 2) medium sized businesses 3) small businesses bitcoin is out of the question.

For the transactions you speak of we have two problems.

1) You have to show how you make a living (plumber). If you have stuff that cant be afforded with the income you show, governments will pursue you and put you in jail.

2) If you decide to buy virtual goods then these goods cant come from any small, medium sized or large business. Most virtual services are free anyways.

3) If wealth can only be spend on virtual goods than that wealth is useless if its significant (again if you have 2 million and can only spend it on virtual goods from tiny companies then these 2 million are useless). Rather pay taxes and be able to buy real stuff.

4) Most people wont risk going to jail if they only safe small amounts.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

In the linked thread I provided to you, the point is made by CoinCube, that my thesis can not be summarized. You will actually have to read.

You fail. I have made two very simple arguments and you cant disprove them in one post despite your numerous attempts. Linking an article and expecting me to read it is ridiculous, as anybody must be able to refute these points in one post if they can be refuted.

EvilPanda

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Small Red and Bad

Quote from: porc on December 07, 2013, 03:09:13 PM

Quote from: EvilPanda on December 07, 2013, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 03:11:37 PM

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

There are governments that interfere more and less. I happen to live where they steal more than 50% of your income if you add income tax, vat and property tax.
You seem to be a person who lives obeying the rules enforced by the "authorities" and don't want any changes. They tell you to pay taxes - you pay, then the taxes grow and you still pay, then they make you borrow in the banks so you can be their debt slave but you won't protest because that's how the system works, right?
Do you really think a system that enforces taxes anywhere it can is just? I am not against all taxes, people should give something to the community, but income tax is among the most unjust, it punishes people for being smart and creative so the ones that have bigger gains have to contribute more - this is ridiculous. Governments write in their constitutions that all men are equal, and yet they are not equally taxed, where's the logic in that. But this is going off topic.

No I dont believe that taxes are just. But the reality is that most people do and pay obidiently. Thats why government has power in the first place. Again cryptocurrencies wont bring down government.

Those brief replies Wink

But they can allow you to get some goods and services anonymously. Let's say you write a program or create a website for someone and get paid in BTC, he has a broken pipe and pays a plumber to fix it with these btc, the plumber buys a used phone from his friend again with btc. Wouldn't that work? I'm not talking about big businesses employing thousands of people. I'm talking about John selling Judy his silver coin collection. Why the hell not use BTC for that?

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

In the linked thread I provided to you, the point is made by CoinCube, that my thesis can not be summarized. You will actually have to read.

Sorry sometimes knowledge can fit into a "sound bite".

This isn't a political contest. You either want to learn or you don't. I can't make that decision for you.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

I gave porc a link to read (see "empire of knowledge" upthread), so he can get the answers to his questions. Yet he refuses to read it. So there is nothing more to say.

Sad to see his ignorance is causing him to give up and bend over to (expose his anal hole to) the collective (ass fscking) hell coming.

Where is the fight in stoic men these days?

Summarize in one sentence why the link shows that medium or small businesses with customers dont have to show where the profits went.

Explain in one sentence why spending my wealth only on virtual goods is a viable alternative to actually paying the tax. You have admitted that spending it on real goods will mean disclosing to the government how you earned money to afford the goods.

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

I gave porc a link to read (see "empire of knowledge" upthread), so he can get the answers to his questions. Yet he refuses to read it. So there is nothing more to say.

Sad to see his ignorance is causing him to give up and bend over to (expose his anal hole to) the collective (ass fscking) hell coming.

Where is the fight in stoic men these days?

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: EvilPanda on December 07, 2013, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 03:05:20 PM

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

There are governments that interfere more and less. I happen to live where they steal more than 50% of your income if you add income tax, vat and property tax.
You seem to be a person who lives obeying the rules enforced by the "authorities" and don't want any changes. They tell you to pay taxes - you pay, then the taxes grow and you still pay, then they make you borrow in the banks so you can be their debt slave but you won't protest because that's how the system works, right?
Do you really think a system that enforces taxes anywhere it can is just? I am not against all taxes, people should give something to the community, but income tax is among the most unjust, it punishes people for being smart and creative so the ones that have bigger gains have to contribute more - this is ridiculous. Governments write in their constitutions that all men are equal, and yet they are not equally taxed, where's the logic in that. But this is going off topic.

No I dont believe that taxes are just. But the reality is that most people do and pay obidiently. Thats why government has power in the first place. Again cryptocurrencies wont bring down government.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: porc on December 07, 2013, 03:04:04 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:57:46 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:52:27 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail. If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths society!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack.

Wow you are really stubborn.

I already told you that I can declare the portion of my income that I want to justify my tangible assets.

And the rest of my earnings I can spend anonymously on other virtual goods to increase my empire of knowledge.

I am not stubborn. I just think you are wrong. Actually answer my points.

You basically said: Ohh the wealth I dont disclose is not useless as I can buy virtual goods! Again thats not very convincing as most people like to buy goods in the real world: Food (largest percentage of income for poorer families), property, transport, education, hardware (laptops), vacation.

Also: A business with customers has to explain where its money went that it received. Get that in your head. Your argument: Ohh you assume that we will be a monolith society. Firstly, yes I continue to believe that businesses will compete and the most successful will be the largest. You fail to make a point why this wont be the case. Even if we have lots of medium sized business they will have to explain where the money went that customers obviously are spending.

Try again.

I provided a link in the prior post for you to educate yourself.

Continue to evade the question. My argument rests not on the fact, that we will have huge monolith businesses. Medium and Small business size are enough.

You have not explained why it is acceptable for me to spend the majority of my wealth only on virtual goods. I would be better of paying the damn tax.

Sry to burst your bubble: You wont bring down government with a cryptocurrency.

EvilPanda

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Small Red and Bad

Quote from: porc on December 07, 2013, 03:04:04 PM

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

There are governments that interfere more and less. I happen to live where they steal more than 50% of your income if you add income tax, vat and property tax.
You seem to be a person who lives obeying the rules enforced by the "authorities" and don't want any changes. They tell you to pay taxes - you pay, then the taxes grow and you still pay, then they make you borrow in the banks so you can be their debt slave but you won't protest because that's how the system works, right?
Do you really think a system that enforces taxes anywhere it can is just? I am not against all taxes, people should give something to the community, but income tax is among the most unjust, it punishes people for being smart and creative so the ones that have bigger gains have to contribute more - this is ridiculous. Governments write in their constitutions that all men are equal, and yet they are not equally taxed, where's the logic in that. But this is going off topic.

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:57:46 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:52:27 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:57:46 PM

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail. If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths society!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack.

Wow you are really stubborn.

I already told you that I can declare the portion of my income that I want to justify my tangible assets.

And the rest of my earnings I can spend anonymously on other virtual goods to increase my empire of knowledge.

I am not stubborn. I just think you are wrong. Actually answer my points.

You basically said: Ohh the wealth I dont disclose is not useless as I can buy virtual goods! Again thats not very convincing as most people like to buy goods in the real world: Food (largest percentage of income for poorer families), property, transport, education, hardware (laptops), vacation.

Also: A business with customers has to explain where its money went that it received. Get that in your head. Your argument: Ohh you assume that we will be a monolith society. Firstly, yes I continue to believe that businesses will compete and the most successful will be the largest. You fail to make a point why this wont be the case. Even if we have lots of medium sized business they will have to explain where the money went that customers obviously are spending.

Try again.

I provided a link in the prior post for you to educate yourself.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:52:27 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail. If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths society!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack.

Wow you are really stubborn.

I already told you that I can declare the portion of my income that I want to justify my tangible assets.

And the rest of my earnings I can spend anonymously on other virtual goods to increase my empire of knowledge.

I am not stubborn. I just think you are wrong. Actually answer my points.

You basically said: Ohh the wealth I dont disclose is not useless as I can buy virtual goods! Again thats not very convincing as most people like to buy goods in the real world: Food (largest percentage of income for poorer families), property, transport, education, hardware (laptops), vacation.

Also: A business with customers has to explain where its money went that it received. Get that in your head. Your argument: Ohh you assume that we will be a monolith society. Firstly, yes I continue to believe that businesses will compete and the most successful will be the largest. You fail to make a point why this wont be the case. Even if we have lots of medium sized business they will have to explain where the money went that customers obviously are spending.

Try again.

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:52:27 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:52:27 PM

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail. If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths society!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack.

Wow you are really stubborn.

I already told you that I can declare the portion of my income that I want to justify my tangible assets.

And the rest of my earnings I can spend anonymously on other virtual goods to increase my empire of knowledge.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail.

1) If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

2) Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack. Also you fail because you have not made any convincing argument while larger businesses wont exist in future.

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 02:44:00 PM

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

P.S. Facebook will be dead as soon as I have the ability to take anonymous transactions. You have no idea who you are debating with and my past accomplishments.

porc

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.

Quote from: EvilPanda on December 07, 2013, 02:41:12 PM

They will execute you if this is the case.

They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Anony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

AnonyMint

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Secondly do you really think they will put half of the population in prison or as you say execute? In the EU they wanted to enforce ACTA last year and people didn't allow it. People have the power to change what they don't like.

Depending on the collective to turn before driving over the cliff has never worked in history.

See the devastation of Rome's population from 1.3 million to 30,000 for 600+ years. There are many such examples.

Collectives are stable for as long as debt can expand (currently at $150 trillion), then the megadeath stage ensues.

porc

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Quote from: EvilPanda on December 07, 2013, 02:41:12 PM

Quote from: porc on December 07, 2013, 02:21:09 PM

Quote from: EvilPanda on December 07, 2013, 02:12:40 PM

Quote from: porc on December 07, 2013, 12:23:01 PM

I have to disagree. Its not great as treating it as a commodity (with capital gains taxes for example) will mean that it wont become a dominant medium of exchange.
Now for transfers it is not cheap if you take into account the spread! So where exactly is the value??? I dont see it.

It may not be dominant but it will still be a medium. I think BTC won't replace fiat completely but it will continue to exist.

Let's say you are a freelancer, a constructor, writer, artist - btc will allow you to get paid for your services without registering a business. Your private details won't be sold by a bank to some advert agency, they won't monitor your income, won't track your investments like they already do. Currently the government knows where you work, buy your food, how much you earn, your credit rates. With btc you are the captain of your own ship. I know people who took credit in foreign currency and it suddenly went up, so now they are completely screwed as the interest rates take 60% of their income. There are still people in this world who want to be independent. I would love to be able to just trade with people, like in the old days - you had a silver or gold coin and you could exchange it for some goods or services without big brother watching from above.

Any larger business is well known by local government. Having customers is a public act (now it depends on the number obviously, but any medium sized business is well know in the area). They will knock on your door and say: We know you have sold product and services. Your local bank account doesnt show transactions in our government currencies. Care to explain? What? You are using cryptocurrencies. Well we will put you in prison for life or execute you. See how easy it is? Again transactions are the tax base (thats why bank accounts are not anonymous, they want to calculate your profit!).

Now nobody will be safe from these controls. What you have a car? How did you earn money for that car? Cant show it in your transactions with your bank in local currencies? Death penality! See how that works? They go after the small guy as well, so nobody is safe. And you assumed bitcoin is 100% anonymous which it is not (remember all the personal details you gave the exchange).

So I dont see anybody using bitcoin as a medium of exchange in a significant way because they would have to pay taxes on every transaction. Then anonymity is lost. If you dont pay taxes you end up in jail.

Firstly, you can sell in the internet just like they do with miners or anything else these days. Secondly do you really think they will put half of the population in prison or as you say execute? In the EU they wanted to enforce ACTA last year and people didn't allow it. People have the power to change what they don't like.

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

AnonyMint

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Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 01:57:33 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on December 07, 2013, 06:28:15 AM

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be, not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.