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Topic: Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin? (Read 811 times)

Betwrong

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 18, 2019, 10:55:06 AM

~

Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

Who knows. I've always thought Satoshi isn't one man, but a government operation. That's my tin foil hat talking, which I don't usually wear. I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

I think if it were a government operation we would know about it by now. Information of such a significance leaks like an old faucet these days. Another reason why I think governments weren't behind it, is that they have never been caught in a big hurry for supporting Bitcoin. But, of course, no one can be 100% sure of anything, so we must always keep our tinfoil hats within the reach. )

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 19, 2019, 07:44:22 AM

Did Satoshi coin the term cryptocurrency?

Satoshi certainly used the term, but I don't think it's definitely known who first coined it. I did read this thread recently: Who coined the word "cryptocurrency" ...

Quote from: Pipdips on August 19, 2019, 07:44:22 AM

Bitcoin is not "property". It is definitely a form of money or currency for purchasing goods and services.

I agree with you, but again, that's irrelevant unfortunately. What we consider bitcoin to be, even if we are actively using it as a currency (which I do almost daily), doesn't matter when it comes to taxation. If your country's tax authority class it as a property or asset, then they will tax it as such.

Pipdips

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 18, 2019, 01:51:18 PM

currency laws are generally inapplicable to bitcoin since most countries consider it property rather than currency.

Then why is it named "crypto currency"? Did Satoshi coin the term cryptocurrency?

Bitcoin is not "property". It is definitely a form of money or currency for purchasing goods and services.

Naida_BR

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I think that he didn't.
The reason for that is that taxation varies around countries so it wasn't a concern of him. Also, Bitcoin is a decentralized ecosystem so not any global regulation such as taxation can be applied to it.

lixer

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Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

If he was really known, I am sure that he would have explained to government how he has factored them in, but I think the thing is left for them now to figure out. One of the reasons why government is still about skeptical about cryptocurrency of bitcoin is that they think that the system will be against them in the aspect of tax because they way that people have portrayed it, like a system they will use to hide from government meanwhile that is not the case.

Satoshi is human and I am sure he understands how government is being run, so he would really not do anything that much to affect government, just the banking sector that I am sure that he is after, because this system would affect more of the banking sectors.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 18, 2019, 08:22:56 AM

However, nobody needs it because the most glaringly tricky part of taxing Bitcoin is that it is not related to any one country. It is a global "currency" or asset. See what I mean? Thus, Bitcoin is not ready to be taxed!

Which country a currency is related to, or even not being related to a country at all, is irrelevant as far as most countries' tax laws go. Even if you are paid entirely in a foreign currency, you will generally be expected to convert your earnings to the relevant amount of your national currency, and pay taxes on that amount. Taking the IRS in the US as an example:

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 18, 2019, 10:55:06 AM

I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

I have never considered this before. I have always pictured Satoshi as one individual, and definitely not related to any government, but it's an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 06, 2019, 03:58:10 PM

You can have a look through all of Satoshi's writings here: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
And you can also have a look through all of his forum posts here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/satoshi-3

Awesome links, I'll have to browse through them when I get a chance. Honestly, I think I've only read a handful of satoshi's posts on bitcointalk and that's about it.

He needn't have written anything about taxation, because he couldn't have known how governments would treat bitcoin, i.e., as an investment or as a currency. It's a global thing, after all and each government can treat it however they like and the tax consequences would be different all throughout the world. Satoshi did a momentous thing in creating bitcoin, and that's enough. Why would he bother to speculate about tax? I would imagine he'd thought about it, and he probably considered the probability of tax evasion, but hey....the man created bitcoin.

Quote from: Betwrong on August 18, 2019, 08:35:13 AM

The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

Who knows. I've always thought Satoshi isn't one man, but a government operation. That's my tin foil hat talking, which I don't usually wear. I've always thought it was extremely convenient that bitcoin was created right at the time when it looked like banks might fail completely due to the housing crisis of 2008.

Betwrong

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The whole point of Bitcoin is to be a payment system beyond governments' control. I would be very surprised if Satoshi was spending his precious time contemplating on how governments could profit from it.

Pipdips

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Quote from: guoyu78 on August 18, 2019, 04:30:45 AM

I do not support you, you can only fight against over taxing, not the taxing entirely, you want to leave in a country and not get taxed, then how do you want the government to continue to make your environment beautiful, how do you want them to establish those free education schools, so tell me exactly why you are against tax, it seem to you that you are tired of seeing those beautiful development surrounding you and you feel like going back to the village.

Yeah, I am just stirring up the pot, really, clearly I do not have much tax knowledge. However, nobody needs it because the most glaringly tricky part of taxing Bitcoin is that it is not related to any one country. It is a global "currency" or asset. See what I mean? Thus, Bitcoin is not ready to be taxed!

If all currencies around the world were eliminated and then all we had was Bitcoin, then, tax away...

guoyu78

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 17, 2019, 09:12:16 AM

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

I do not support you, you can only fight against over taxing, not the taxing entirely, you want to leave in a country and not get taxed, then how do you want the government to continue to make your environment beautiful, how do you want them to establish those free education schools, so tell me exactly why you are against tax, it seem to you that you are tired of seeing those beautiful development surrounding you and you feel like going back to the village.

If you are not comfortable with tax, then you have so many countries that are lawless and not developing to go to, those ones would never bother you for tax, but the hardship you will suffer there is the one that will teach you a lesson. Before you call for scrapping of tax, you have to first understand exactly what tax stands for and what it does.

breathlessz

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 17, 2019, 09:12:16 AM

Quote from: raidarksword on August 17, 2019, 08:53:25 AM

I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

Each country's tax regulations are different, making it difficult for Satoshi to determine taxes that can be adopted by all countries. therefore the tax is determined by the government of each country. sathosi only focuses on bitcoin as an alternative payment tool

Pipdips

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Quote from: raidarksword on August 17, 2019, 08:53:25 AM

I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

Satoshi never stated any position about taxes at all. The fight is up to us, it is the People versus the Tax Man.

We the people have two choices: we can either get our acts together and stand together as the majority, or we can definitely count on having the imposing presence of the Tax Man and Wall Street outsmarting us.

It is time for the training wheels to come off and ordinary people need to unite and realize that taxes are an illusion. Satoshi's vision lives on strong, but Satoshi is probably out of the picture today and can no longer hold our hands.

raidarksword

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I think not because bitcoin was created for the ideology of having free from government and banks system not even from taxes as you mentioned in order to be free from middlemen that could make a lesser fee on every transactions unlike what banks implemented long ago before bitcoin even existed.

pawanjain

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He would have definitely thought of tax when creating bitcoin since he had created bitcoin during the days of financial crisis in the stock market.
Not that he wanted to tax bitcoin but he had to eliminate the middle man interventing in his transactions and eliminating tax was just an additional benefit from his creation of bitcoin.
Satoshi was a smart guy. He had created bitcoin consciously and would have definitely kept tax in mind while doing so.

Pipdips

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Quote from: BitHodler on August 15, 2019, 03:30:02 PM

Quote from: fullhdpixel on August 15, 2019, 12:20:12 AM

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

It's not so much that most people purposely evade taxation, but because of Bitcoin they have a better understanding of economics, which makes them rethink the whole purpose of taxation.

I'm all for people paying tax over their profits, which I do as well, but some tax laws reek of legal theft. An example is being taxed over wealth that isn't being utilized. I can't think of anything that justifies the government to do this.

I can perfectly understand that thanks to Bitcoin people's holdings can easily be stored outside the baking system and therefore they choose to not declare anything of their long term hodl stack.

I fully agree with what is being said. The foundation of my trading work is to play by the rules and pay taxes but at the same time, with Bitcoin, I believe something new is at hand and paying taxes for Bitcoin 'ownership' is something I have decided to think twice about, and reconsider. I think Bitcoin is not real property like in real estate, and neither is it an idea or a unique concept like with intellectual property. Also Bitcoin owners are not share holders like with stocks.

Bitcoin is something different that is yet to be defined...

BitHodler

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Quote from: fullhdpixel on August 15, 2019, 12:20:12 AM

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

It's not so much that most people purposely evade taxation, but because of Bitcoin they have a better understanding of economics, which makes them rethink the whole purpose of taxation.

I'm all for people paying tax over their profits, which I do as well, but some tax laws reek of legal theft. An example is being taxed over wealth that isn't being utilized. I can't think of anything that justifies the government to do this.

I can perfectly understand that thanks to Bitcoin people's holdings can easily be stored outside the baking system and therefore they choose to not declare anything of their long term hodl stack.

Pipdips

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 13, 2019, 11:01:48 AM

Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

So what is it exactly that you are insinuating, that bitcoin users should never be taxed?

This topic is just a discussion about the taxation of Bitcoin.

The way I see it is that the main function and service of governments is to tax people. It is an interesting arrangement they have constructed. The government has the people paying for them to build more laws and enforce more laws for taxing people and taking their money. Then they employ people to keep taxing and building more tax laws. Taxation is mostly against the people paying for it all, but the people do not realize it. It is like a giant magic act, like pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

The only service that the government offers is to tax people and they also work to enact more laws for justifying more new taxes. That is what they are doing with Bitcoin...

fullhdpixel

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Quote from: lixer on August 13, 2019, 12:17:10 PM

I think taxing of bitcoin is a new topic and I do not like the idea that we are stuck with what Satoshi's vision was, I can totally understand it for the first few years but he is no longer part of the project anymore and to be honest people decide the path bitcoin is taking and not satoshi anymore.

We do not have ethereum and vitalik type of connection which is honestly good, if vitalik comes out tomorrow and says he is no longer part of ethereum team and doesn't like it anymore then ethereum price will fall like crazy, bitcoin doesn't have that central figure that could ruin it in one day. So when moving to segwit for example we did it collectively and not just miners but exchanges and all other places using segwit address' as well.

Taxing is another issue we can handle collectively and not by some individual saying anything about it.

That would never be possible, because if you look at what the development of a country relies on, is it not strictly on taxes? The best way to fight cryptocurrency off the market is to make it fight tax. Government could still support cryptocurrency even if it will affect banks, but if it has to do with stopping the government from being able to get the one that really concerns them, then you should be ready to say a very big buy to crypto because the ban that will be placed on it will be bigger than the whole world lol.

I believe that even as a good citizen of our country, we should not evade tax even with the system of cryptocurrency because that is what will guard the future of our children, some of our children has gone to free school, courtesy of these taxes being paid.

lixer

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I think taxing of bitcoin is a new topic and I do not like the idea that we are stuck with what Satoshi's vision was, I can totally understand it for the first few years but he is no longer part of the project anymore and to be honest people decide the path bitcoin is taking and not satoshi anymore.

We do not have ethereum and vitalik type of connection which is honestly good, if vitalik comes out tomorrow and says he is no longer part of ethereum team and doesn't like it anymore then ethereum price will fall like crazy, bitcoin doesn't have that central figure that could ruin it in one day. So when moving to segwit for example we did it collectively and not just miners but exchanges and all other places using segwit address' as well.

Taxing is another issue we can handle collectively and not by some individual saying anything about it.

Lawrenzoo

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Quote from: Pipdips on August 06, 2019, 02:44:58 PM

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

So what is it exactly that you are insinuating, that bitcoin users should never be taxed?

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