Topic: Disentanglement Of Coins In Event of 2 Chains (Read 2229 times)

OK I have 5 BTC before the fork, these coins are deemed good by both types of nodes and miners.

I buy some dust that is only valid on the XT chain, and some dust that is only valid on the Core chain.

I then send the 5 BTC + the XT dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + XT dust are only valid and only seen by the XT nodes and miners on the XT chain. The transaction will be rejected by the Core nodes, miners and chain.

I send the same 5 BTC + the Core dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + Core dust are only valid and only seen by the Core nodes and miners on the Core chain. The transaction will be rejected by the XT nodes, miners and chain.

Then all I need to do is keep track of which address contains my XT coins and which address contains my Core coins.

I think that will work.

Yes, this is one solution. It has been suggested that this kind of functional taint could be offered as a trustless service.

Are you trying to find something easier?

Not myself, I'm happy with my locktime solution. Still, something even cleaner would be interesting.

Do you mind explaining how you would split them using locktime ?

teukon

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Activity: 1246

Merit: 1011

OK I have 5 BTC before the fork, these coins are deemed good by both types of nodes and miners.

I buy some dust that is only valid on the XT chain, and some dust that is only valid on the Core chain.

I then send the 5 BTC + the XT dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + XT dust are only valid and only seen by the XT nodes and miners on the XT chain. The transaction will be rejected by the Core nodes, miners and chain.

I send the same 5 BTC + the Core dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + Core dust are only valid and only seen by the Core nodes and miners on the Core chain. The transaction will be rejected by the XT nodes, miners and chain.

Then all I need to do is keep track of which address contains my XT coins and which address contains my Core coins.

I think that will work.

Yes, this is one solution. It has been suggested that this kind of functional taint could be offered as a trustless service.

Quote from: BurtW on August 28, 2015, 11:03:27 AM

Are you trying to find something easier?

Not myself, I'm happy with my locktime solution. Still, something even cleaner would be interesting.

BurtW

legendary

Activity: 2646

Merit: 1138

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

OK I have 5 BTC before the fork, these coins are deemed good by both types of nodes and miners.

I buy some dust that is only valid on the XT chain, and some dust that is only valid on the Core chain.

I then send the 5 BTC + the XT dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + XT dust are only valid and only seen by the XT nodes and miners on the XT chain. The transaction will be rejected by the Core nodes, miners and chain.

I send the same 5 BTC + the Core dust to an address I control. These 5 BTC + Core dust are only valid and only seen by the Core nodes and miners on the Core chain. The transaction will be rejected by the XT nodes, miners and chain.

Then all I need to do is keep track of which address contains my XT coins and which address contains my Core coins.

I think that will work. Are you trying to find something easier?

You could keep sending the same coins back to yourself until you get a transaction on each chain I suppose - but then you have transaction costs.

teukon

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1011

I can and will spend my pre-fork coins on both chains. That way I end up with all of my pre-forked coins on whatever chain "wins" and becomes the "true" Bitcoin and I also have an equivalent number of coins on the chain that basically becomes the new Alt-Bitcoin chain.

I will have twice as many coins as before the fork but really the same number of "Bitcoins" (on the chain that wins economically and gets to call itself Bitcoin) and the others on the new Alt coin chain.

Now explain what the heck you mean by "Disentaglement" given the scenario I just described.

Suppose you have 5 bitcoins going into the fork. After the fork you automatically have 5 core-coins and 5 XT-coins (outputs on different forks but protected by the same private key). Suppose you want to spend 2 XT-coins on some alpaca socks. How can you do this without also sending the merchant 2 core-coins?

To "disentangle" pre-fork coins is to somehow spend the corresponding core-coins and XT-coins to different addresses.

DannyHamilton

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Activity: 3514

Merit: 4895

Firstly, you need to calm down Danny.

Ok. But only because you told me to.

We are just discussing a protocol

Correct.

ad hominems only drive away respect.

I suppose you're right, but there is a lot of bad information being given by people that act like they are knowledgeable and act like they are sharing "facts". This just leads to more users misunderstanding things and propagating bad information.

Secondly, I do understand the technical details

Glad to hear it. So you're aware that there are no deadlocks or semaphores, and that coordination between the chains is not possible then, right?

(perhaps better than you),

Then I look forward to learning from you. I'm always interested in gaining knowledge from those that know more than me.

so either you misunderstood me or I did you.

Perhaps.

When I say old bitcoins won't work, I mean they stay entangled and work on both chains which is clearly the problem OP describes.

So, they'll still work, but if the output is spent on either chain, it is possible that it will also move on the other chain.

You gave a protocol for disentanglement, didn't you? I am saying if we don't use it we stay entangled.

There are a variety of ways to separate the outputs on the two chains. I described a method, as did a few other people. Yes, if the outputs are not disentangled, then you are right they will still be entangled.

In the second point, I did not say you double spent the coins

I think you said:

2. What if I double spend?

Quote from: DannyHamilton on August 28, 2015, 10:04:50 AM

I said what if I use your protocol to send my pre-fork old coins to both the chains?

Then one of four things might happen, and you'll need to wait for confirmations to find out which it is:

The transaction that you send to CORE confirms on both chains. The outputs are still "entangled"
The transaction that you send to XT confirms on both chains. The outputs are still "entangled"
The transaction that you intend to confirm on the XT chain confirms ONLY on the chain where you intended. The outputs are "disentangeld" the way you wanted
The transaction that you intend to confirm on the XT chain confirms ONLY on the CORE chain. The outputs are "disentangeld", but not necessarily the way you intended

BurtW

legendary

Activity: 2646

Merit: 1138

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

I can and will spend my pre-fork coins on both chains. That way I end up with all of my pre-forked coins on whatever chain "wins" and becomes the "true" Bitcoin and I also have an equivalent number of coins on the chain that basically becomes the new Alt-Bitcoin chain.

I will have twice as many coins as before the fork but really the same number of "Bitcoins" (on the chain that wins economically and gets to call itself Bitcoin) and the others on the new Alt coin chain.

Now explain what the heck you mean by "Disentaglement" given the scenario I just described.

skang

sr. member

Activity: 452

Merit: 252

from democracy to self-rule.

1. Everyone absolutely has to use a service to get their coins on a forked chain.

Why does everyone have to use a service? Who would run the service? Would the service need to use a service? If the service doesn't need to use a service, then nobody has to use a service, because they can all do whatever the service would have done.

Althuogh theoretically it doesn't look like it but conceptually this is a change in the protocol, because without this someone's old bitcoins don't work.

What do you mean "someone's old bitcoins don't work"? There's no reason that old bitcoins wouldn't work jsut fine as long as there was enough hash power supporting that blockchain.

2. What if I double spend? I.e, I try to do the same on both chains simultaneously?

That's not a double-spend. That's two completely different spends on two different blockchains.

Waiting for confirmation on other chain won't work, since it could lead to a deadlock & would require a semaphore to resolve which means requiring coordination between the chains.

I don't think you understand how bitcoin works. Please avoid explaining bitcoin's functionality to new users until you've learned a bit more about the technical details.

Firstly, you need to calm down Danny. We are just discussing a protocol; ad hominems only drive away respect.
Secondly, I do understand the technical details(perhaps better than you), so either you misunderstood me or I did you.

When I say old bitcoins won't work, I mean they stay entangled and work on both chains which is clearly the problem OP describes.
You gave a protocol for disentanglement, didn't you? I am saying if we don't use it we stay entangled.

In the second point, I did not say you double spent the coins; I said what if I use your protocol to send my pre-fork old coins to both the chains?

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3514

Merit: 4895

1. Everyone absolutely has to use a service to get their coins on a forked chain.

Why does everyone have to use a service? Who would run the service? Would the service need to use a service? If the service doesn't need to use a service, then nobody has to use a service, because they can all do whatever the service would have done.

Althuogh theoretically it doesn't look like it but conceptually this is a change in the protocol, because without this someone's old bitcoins don't work.

What do you mean "someone's old bitcoins don't work"? There's no reason that old bitcoins wouldn't work jsut fine as long as there was enough hash power supporting that blockchain.

2. What if I double spend? I.e, I try to do the same on both chains simultaneously?

That's not a double-spend. That's two completely different spends on two different blockchains.