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Topic: Dismal Level of Discourse - page 2. (Read 5442 times)

donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
April 14, 2013, 01:54:13 AM
#31
IQ only signifies a capacity for holding knowledge.  It says nothing about knowledge held.  For example, if Bill had a cup the size of 130 IQ, and Jane had a cup the size of 150, how can you tell how full their cups are?  Would Jane's cup necessarily be more full than Bill's because it's bigger?  It's possible, but not always the case.

That is, if you believe IQ is a legitimate method of determining how much potential a person has to understand.  If someone can improve their IQ, everything gets thrown out the window.

IQ isn't really about capacity for "holding knowledge", in that case it would test memory, encoding and retrieval, which isn't really tested there.
IQ is more about your capacity of processing information, and that's it.
Visual processing, pattern processing are the most typical ones.
donator
Activity: 1419
Merit: 1015
April 13, 2013, 11:54:16 PM
#30
If we had more filtering abilities, I think it would help increase the signal to noise ratio. Right now I can't even find the good comments worth responding to. I'd like to completely exclude posts from users under X number of months old from every single thread I read. If I had this option, I'd participate more, but lately I'm finding coming to the forums more of a chore. I still read Meta and the Custom Hardware categories, but I think after my Avalons come in, I'll be visiting the forum only sparsely.

Perhaps a voucher-only system for getting out of the Newbie section would be good. I'm not sure. It seems like a lot of these new folks need to read more than they post, however.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
April 13, 2013, 10:04:51 PM
#29
IQ is good to have, but so is EI. No matter how intelligent a person is, if he's constantly attacking, being negative and in general being a douche, I have no interest of dealing with that person. Now, if he has the occasional heated moments, that's not an issue. But some people just have a very bad attitude overall. And no matter how much you ignore it, if you stay around people like that, it will eventually eat at you, and your own attitude will be contaminated by theirs.

True true.  There are many forms of intelligence.  Nothing bugs me more than someone who doesn't know how to handle other people.  I can't imagine someone like that would be all together wise; most of life would be a series of failed relationships and anger at people in general for not accommodating their lack of social ability, furthering the hole they're in.  I generally try to be nice to these people; when you attack someone who attacks you, it makes them believe it's okay to act that way.  Throwing them a curveball forces them to think about why nobody's acting like they are.  Doesn't always work, tho Tongue
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
April 13, 2013, 09:58:55 PM
#28
IQ only signifies a capacity for holding knowledge.  It says nothing about knowledge held.  For example, if Bill had a cup the size of 130 IQ, and Jane had a cup the size of 150, how can you tell how full their cups are?  Would Jane's cup necessarily be more full than Bill's because it's bigger?  It's possible, but not always the case.

That is, if you believe IQ is a legitimate method of determining how much potential a person has to understand.  If someone can improve their IQ, everything gets thrown out the window.

IQ is good to have, but so is EI. No matter how intelligent a person is, if he's constantly attacking, being negative and in general being a douche, I have no interest of dealing with that person. Now, if he has the occasional heated moments, that's not an issue. But some people just have a very bad attitude overall. And no matter how much you ignore it, if you stay around people like that, it will eventually eat at you, and your own attitude will be contaminated by theirs.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
April 13, 2013, 09:55:31 PM
#27

I think that like the Internet itself (which was great before all those AOLers...), you will see segmentation between content creators and content consumers in Bitcoin media. We will cordon off the latter's banal exchanges (e.g. youtube comments) in a way that doesn't distract from the thoughtful word. The question is whether to keep rearranging deck chairs in this forum.

Although there's much noise here, I find this forum more intellectually stimulating than youtube comments. Youtube in itself limits the length of any conversation, so it becomes like twitter on steroids, ie. not good for discussing things in depth.

I think there's a place for everyone on the internet, we just need to find that place.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
April 13, 2013, 08:51:46 PM
#26
IQ only signifies a capacity for holding knowledge.  It says nothing about knowledge held.  For example, if Bill had a cup the size of 130 IQ, and Jane had a cup the size of 150, how can you tell how full their cups are?  Would Jane's cup necessarily be more full than Bill's because it's bigger?  It's possible, but not always the case.

That is, if you believe IQ is a legitimate method of determining how much potential a person has to understand.  If someone can improve their IQ, everything gets thrown out the window.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
April 13, 2013, 08:39:11 PM
#25
[1] Although this is a subjective claim, I believe it can be independently verified because of the high correlation between intelligence and vocabulary (typical correlation coefficient is 0.8 ).  Thus if one compares the level of vocabulary used in years past on bitcointalk, I assert that it would be considerably higher than it is today.

Are you defining intelligence as IQ? A large component of an IQ measurement is verbal skill, which implicitly includes vocabulary. Your argument is tautological.

IQ is one thing. And having a high IQ, I guess it indicates you're 'smart'. And that's not a bad thing. However I've seen many people with a high IQ, still making mistakes on many levels. For instance I had a professor at a university once, he was a complete ass. There was a clear hierachy. Undergraduate students were not allowed to contact him directly, because it was beneath him. Also it was important not to disturb him early in the morning, because then he was grumpy. Also he liked to plaster images of himself everywhere, letting everyone know about all his 'important' trips. Also, he was also always the master of everything computers, and for every assignment we got to know at the top of the paper that this stuff was written LaTex, vim or whatever obscure method he used to produce whatever. He always liked to use the most difficult methods to make something, so if he could write an assembler program to output gif's to give some nice graphs in the pdf's he produced, he'd do that.

Then immediately when students were enrolled, if they didn't know all the things that the curriculum was about for every session in class, the students were ridiculed and laughed at. He also used to write complicated calculations on big sheets of paper and plaster it on his office windows facing outwards, so that everybody that went by his office could gawk at his awesomeness.

If you sent him a question on e-mail, most of the time he either did not answer, gave an evasive answer, or was downright rude. At one time I was swamped in assignments as I also took extra subjects, and I sent him an e-mail asking him when the next assignment came out, so I could be better able to plan my time.

I got an e-mail back telling me that I must be in an idiot to be in this much of a hurry. But if I really was pressed for time I could have (insert very difficult assignment in assembler programming language here), and it was to be completed over the weekend and delivered to his office first thing in the morning the nextmonday (about 4 weeks before the general assignments were done). I gently declined and told him I'd rather wait for the official assignment.

Supposedly he was a brilliant man, or at least so he said himself, and he naturally had a few fans also. Maybe he had a very high IQ, I honestly don't know - but he was a complete ass. If I could chose I would chose a professor with 30% less knowledge but a better attitude.

As for the signal to noise ratio on this forum, using the ignore button usually helps. But it seems to be an influx of noise every time we have much activity in regards to speculation on the bitcoin price.

Imo, the most pleasant people to be around, are the ones with a relaxed attitude, helpful, friendly and with good intellects. Or simply put: Adults that can behave.
sr. member
Activity: 475
Merit: 255
April 13, 2013, 05:48:48 PM
#24
I would like to point out to my older suggestion of personalized tags for users: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1704296

However, this is probably not the right time (it is too turbulent these days) to promote such functionality.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
April 13, 2013, 04:49:55 PM
#23
[1] Although this is a subjective claim, I believe it can be independently verified because of the high correlation between intelligence and vocabulary (typical correlation coefficient is 0.8 ).  Thus if one compares the level of vocabulary used in years past on bitcointalk, I assert that it would be considerably higher than it is today.

Are you defining intelligence as IQ? A large component of an IQ measurement is verbal skill, which implicitly includes vocabulary. Your argument is tautological.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1036
April 13, 2013, 01:39:47 PM
#22
Now, I am not criticizing the kids, this is all part of their learning process. Also, there are very bright ones out there. But most of them are just adding noise.
Plus they won't get off my lawn!

I have also become more exasperated, there is not much enriching information being posted here (and the search function doesn't work correctly to show refreshing old search results), nor is there much point in posting to an audience who didn't bother searching for obvious sources, or who's response to the information they pretend to seek is TL;DR. The kind of people who think that the stuff they don't know how to do is easy to do.

I think that like the Internet itself (which was great before all those AOLers...), you will see segmentation between content creators and content consumers in Bitcoin media. We will cordon off the latter's banal exchanges (e.g. youtube comments) in a way that doesn't distract from the thoughtful word. The question is whether to keep rearranging deck chairs in this forum.

On the positive side, I think we are at the saturation point of conspiracy survivalists here (you know who you are), and will see more mainstream users joining.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
April 13, 2013, 01:08:14 PM
#21
Having an invite only forum would be fine, but those posts shouldn't be isolated from the public, instead it should be something like a +v channel... only those invited can reply and post. The rest just watch and listen.

That's exactly what's missing from both Foundation and this forum's "premium" hidden section.

You don't need to hide things, this will only feed conspiracy paranoia. Just make it read-only for non-members.
And if people can't see what's inside, it's hard to know whether it would be worth paying for.

Overall, I don't think the problem is how to do it, it's just the lack of will (or organization).
I've been off bitcoin for 18 months and came back to the same sorry state of affairs as it was back then Sad
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
April 13, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
#20
Fail.
1) OP claims to be smart, yet can't find the 'Meta' sub-forum.
2) S/he's basically whining "I'm bored! Say something smart. I demand to be entertained!"

If you want better quality discussions, then use the search function and 'necro' a topic of your choice that you think has merit, or start a thread that's actually meaningful...
*sigh* He's talking about kids like you

I don't like it when people compare these morons to children/teenagers because they're a lot more intelligent than this the majority of the time, chances are these are 30+ year old neckbeards, spoilt traders or neo-keynesians out to do some trolling and are incapable of being told they're full of shit or they are sore losers.

Haven't you seen the kind of bullshit that our politicians and leaders get caught writing on facebook and twitter?

I am not saying that kids are dumb, but teens with less life experience pretending to know it all it irks me every time.
The equalizing effect of the internet (making feel that a teen has the same authority than a professional), plus the trolling effect that we all know, causes really exasperating situations.

I applaud any kid who has a inquisitive mind, and some of them may try to learn through arguments.
But you can really tell the mental age of someone by paying attention to the proper usage of vocabulary, terminologies and their reasoning pattern... Which is in turn always matching with their life experience.

Preteens typically make you refer to the dictionary. They have difficulties understanding that professional terminologies have specific meanings that are not reflected in vernacular usage.

Teens typically want to pretend to be cultured and most analyses are purely logical, they don't understand the difference between tautology and truth. They have hard time understanding fallacies. They heavily use rhetoric to cover their ignorance. They are still trapped in a word of definitions, but now less about semantics and more about of conceptual definitions from textbook. Male teens have a very hard time being flexible, they are still living in a world of absolutes. They may grasp conceptually but they lack understanding of fundamentals.
Existential questions abound, and their ideologies are paved with zeitgeist and 1984 instead of actual philosophy.
And those who eat better ideologies, they become fanboys. Basically because they lack of actual criteria, they are looking for authorities to respect and follow.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is fairly predominant in both preteens and teens.

Adults because of their life experience, they bring case studies and they understand the exceptions to the rule. We use models to understand the world, but we use empiricism to confirm. We learn that the world is neither black nor white, but gray.
Existential conflicts are mostly gone with puberty, although it may return at your 30's or 40's in what people call "middle life crises". But those are more in line with "what did I do with my life" instead of the teenage "why do I exist".

OP is right: your vocabulary and orthography reveals a LOT, and the way that one formulates their ideas exposes even more.
If you read enough how someone formulates their question and/or reacts, you can infer fairly accurately their educational level, and therefore estimate their (mental) age.

Now, I am not criticizing the kids, this is all part of their learning process. Also, there are very bright ones out there. But most of them are just adding noise.
Having an invite only forum would be fine, but those posts shouldn't be isolated from the public, instead it should be something like a +v channel... only those invited can reply and post. The rest just watch and listen.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
April 13, 2013, 10:53:25 AM
#19
I guess it could be a create new topic option - "restrict replies to established members".

Moderation of growing communities is always a challenging problem. You will piss some people off, no matter what you do.
sr. member
Activity: 353
Merit: 251
April 13, 2013, 10:48:13 AM
#18
While I don't think this is a bad idea to have private area's, one of my favorite websites (wickedfire) takes an approach that allows the newcomers to read worthwhile posts while excluding them from posting in that section (they call it the 'enlightened members' section).

Most posts end up there because a moderator thought they were particularly worthwhile or the members voted that it should go there. The difference between this and a truly private section is everyone can still read the posts in there and gain insights (and hopefully increase their posting quality through the knowledge gained there) without having idea's horded by just the members who are able to read a 'private' section.

I, being new here, would appreciate a section like this as well as it's usually a good starting point to get your head wrapped around new concepts without having to sift through a pile of other stuff or ask questions that have been answered and subsequently buried under everything else and difficult to find. I am of course biased being new myself and not likely to be included in a private section, but my thoughts really lie on this forum turning me onto crypto currency despite having to sift through things to learn how to get started. If there was an easy section with lots of worthwhile idea's for new people to start on it might encourage others to take the time to learn and get involved.

Hopefully we can see something like the 'enlightened members' section here.

I like this idea since I agree completely with the OP, but I would also hate to see the quality threads really hidden from view from the average user. It would also be great to be able to refer to those threads when someone does have a more serious question or tries to understand something about some aspect of Bitcoin.
member
Activity: 103
Merit: 10
April 13, 2013, 10:39:52 AM
#17
If you want better quality discussions, then use the search function and 'necro' a topic of your choice that you think has merit, or start a thread that's actually meaningful...

This I like and have done before  Grin
donator
Activity: 1464
Merit: 1047
I outlived my lifetime membership:)
April 13, 2013, 10:34:22 AM
#16
Cough...Bitcoin Foundation...cough...

Something to think about....Bitcoin is worth paying for. And it's worth paying to make it better.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
April 13, 2013, 05:42:24 AM
#15
Fail.
1) OP claims to be smart, yet can't find the 'Meta' sub-forum.
2) S/he's basically whining "I'm bored! Say something smart. I demand to be entertained!"

If you want better quality discussions, then use the search function and 'necro' a topic of your choice that you think has merit, or start a thread that's actually meaningful...
*sigh* He's talking about kids like you

I don't like it when people compare these morons to children/teenagers because they're a lot more intelligent than this the majority of the time, chances are these are 30+ year old neckbeards, spoilt traders or neo-keynesians out to do some trolling and are incapable of being told they're full of shit or they are sore losers.

Haven't you seen the kind of bullshit that our politicians and leaders get caught writing on facebook and twitter?
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
April 13, 2013, 04:45:06 AM
#14
So if this weren't for some certain project or such would they be more than just circlejerk?

And is allowance deniable, so if you don't agree with someone he is just removed...

There is already self-moderation option, so this could be done in that way.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
April 13, 2013, 04:16:28 AM
#13
Most of the devs have come to the same conclusion.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
April 13, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
#12
Lately as I read over what is posted in the forums I'm struck by how much things have changed.  The level of discussion has fallen on at least two scales:  maturity and intelligence.  Now the average poster seems to have the maturity of a teenage boy and at best an average intelligence[1].

Couldn't agree more. About 1.5 years ago I've tried to start a separate forum only for people who have actually contributed something tangible to Bitcoin, but it didn't go well.

Maybe the solution is to just make a forum with a small escrow payment - you put some BTC to activate your account and then can withdraw them and terminate your membership if you don't like it anymore. This alone should cut a lot of noise.
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