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Topic: Do you think "iamnotback" really has the" Bitcoin killer"? - page 14. (Read 79954 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
In past days I had a realization (or probably remembering something I had realized long ago) which I mentioned upthread but I'm confident readers didn't recognize the importance.

Fungible money awards the profits from volatility to the whale (or shareholder capital) with the most reserves who can backstop the speculation and collect a fee on the wave motion, i.e. the fee is a friction. This is what MPEx was doing and how he became so wealthy in Bitcoins (750,000+ BTC).

The point is that fungible money is a winner-take-all paradigm because even if there is competition, any system which imparts less risk to the one with higher economies-of-scale, is going to end up completely concentrated at some point. This is why Bitcoin can wags the altcoin's tail and not vice versa, but it is also why Bitcoin is not stable long-term. Because eventually all the capital will become concentrated in one whale or group.

This is why Nash's theory doesn't work in practice. But Nash was mathematically correct that if it is possible to have asymptotic number of stable currencies, then that winner-take-all tragedy-of-the-commons becomes an Inverse Commons.

And I posit that the way to achieve Nash's goal is something I am working on. I will not detail the reasons further right now. That is for a later time.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500

Lol, the random april fools trolling busted you; eth apologist, steem fanboy, and ltc facilitator. Do you think this is by mystake, or design ?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
@iadix, I did not yet finished trying to figure out what you are doing with your code. I see you are doing some strange things such as loading precompiled modules and some scripting concept which I don't yet see the relevance of. I was too exhausted when I was looking at it. Had to sleep. Woke up and was finishing up my analysis of blockchain economics. Now I need to prepare to go for a doctors appointment which will consume 6 hours because have to get xrays first.

So then when I return, I will probably be too exhausted to look at your stuff today.

I will say that the code of manually building these JSON objects looks very fugly to me. And coding everything in C seems not ideal and not programmer friendly. We need C only for code which needs fine tuned performance, which typically is only a small portion of the overall code.

There is TypeScript for static typing on JS.

I will read your last message later as I don't have enough time right now.

But again I really don't understand the overall point of the JSON stuff. And I don't understand why you claim it is optimal to conflate the languages used to create programs which implement the APIs. APIs should be language agnostic. Good design is to not prematurely optimize and commit to a language.

Sure seems to me that you are probably conflating things instead of building good APIs. But I need to think about this more before I can definitively respond to you. I am still open minded.

My goal is not to prove which one of us is more clever. I simply want to design the systems that will scale (and I mean scale in terms of programmers adoption of our platform thus obtuse frameworks are not desirable, not just the other meanings of scaling). And to balance that with needing to get something launched asap.

I put a lot of effort into correct layered design. I don't believe in just hacking things together like spaghetti. I don't understand what APIs you claim you have designed and why you claim they are optimal? I don't even understand yet the significance of your tree concept. It is as if you are trying to build an object system in program/library code that should instead be integrated into a programming language. Perhaps I just don't yet grasp it holistically.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
@iadix I haven't forgotten you. Coming back to your stuff next.

First I wanted to solidify the understanding of what I am attempting to do for blockchains:

And this is precisely the conceptual reason why Bitcoin may still be decentralized. But the danger is that over time the paradigm is a winner-take-all due to either the marginal utility of economies-of-scale (within the Bitcoin protocol) being perfectly constant and/or the inability of the Bitcoin small block, non-shrinking (money supply, i.e. not a deflationary supply) system to adapt to the knowledge age as finance becomes inexorably less efficacious w.r.t. to knowledge value (i.e. the NWO will be able to bring those whales into submission to the higher authority of an externality). I would much prefer if possible a protocol wherein the power of everyone is essentially nil...

So Bitcoin maintains its immutability because the richest whales in the kingdom dominate it and they will experience mutual self-destruction if they defect, where 'defect' means to try to mutate the protocol. The economics and cooperative game theory was explained upthread, e.g. my summary rebuttal to @jbreher.

One hypothetical threat to Bitcoin's immutability is where another altcoin would gain a higher marketcap, due to the analogous arbitrage master/slave vulnerability quoted below. But this won't happen with Litecoin gaining more adoption with SegWit (presuming @dinofelis and I are correct that Bitcoin will never have SegWit and LN), because Lightning Networks is centralized hubs meaning private fractional reserve banking, which thus means all the profit from it will be ultimately settled between those power brokers on the Bitcoin blockchain. The transaction settling of LIghtning Network channels on the Litecoin blockchain is for transactional settlement not for power broker settlement. The tail doesn't wag the dog. And thus Litecoin will never be more valuable than Bitcoin, for the analogous reason that Nash explained why silver can't be as valuable as gold (c.f. my upthread rebuttal of @r0ach for the relevant Nash quotes). Litecoin might rise to 1/10 of Bitcoin's market cap, similar to silver's ratio to gold when silver was used as a wide-spread currency.

PoW is only immutable on the master blockchain. The lesser altcoins can be manipulated by arbitrage employing the fulcrum of the master Bitcoin. Litecoin appears to ready to lose its immutability and adopt SegWit because the miners and whales (who are the same in both BTC and LTC btw) are able to take advantage of the ability to dominate a lesser market cap with a greater one. This creates a game theory opportunity where the previously manipulation of LTC to force it to be undervalued will now be reversed so that there will be scarcity of mining supply thus motivating miners to vote for activating SegWit to maintain the ramp up in the price.

Thus any threat to Bitcoin only comes from an altcoin that gains massive adoption in a value activity that is not susceptible to fungible finance (because otherwise the profit of the activity will be siphoned off to the finance power brokers and settled on the Bitcoin blockchain). If such an altcoin attained a larger marketcap than Bitcoin, then Bitcoin would be the tail that can't wag the dog and so then the power broker Nash equilibrium of Bitcoin can fail. As I stated upthread, the collapse of the efficacy of finance will not happen overnight. Thus Bitcoin's immutability is not in danger near-term.

I presented upthread already my thesis on the knowledge age, value of knowledge, and the inexorable decline of the efficacy of finance w.r.t. to knowledge value.

In short, fungible money is a winner-take-all paradigm because of the power vacuum.

But if the money is non-fungible knowledge, then nobody is in control of the paradigm (which is the asymptotic result Nash was searching for). I have a surprise coming.

The tail doesn't wag the dog. If knowledge value is traded directly in an Inverse Commons, finance is the tail.
full member
Activity: 322
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They're tactical
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
Brilliant !! Smiley
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
For me, where i want to get at, is to get a definition of node that would look like this :


Code:
{
   "node" :
   {
"name":"purenode",
"seed_node_host":"iadix.com",
"seed_node_port":16714,
"p2p_port":16819,
"magic":0xD9BEFECA,
"version":60018,
"sign_mod":"ecdsa",
"pubKeyVersion":0x19,
"staking":
{
"staking_kernel":"stake_pos3",
"target spacing":64,
"target timespan":960,
"stake reward":150000000,
"limit":0x1B00FFFF
},
"mining":
{
"target spacing":64,
"target timespan":960,
"limit":0x1E0FFFFF,
"reward":10000000000000,
"last_pow_block":200,
"paytxfee":10000
},
"genesis":
{
"version" :1,
"time" :1466419085,
"bits" :0x1e0fffff,
"nonce" :579883,
"InitialStakeModifier":0,
"InitialStakeModifier2":0
},
"initialize" : function () {}, // initialize the app  (constructor) eg load the required modules, allocate memory
"start" : function () {}, //start the application  eg open port, initialize protocol and connect nodes
"stop" : function () {}, //stop application eg close port and all connections
"free" : function () {}, //free resources (destructor) unload all modules and free memory
"message_handlers" :
{
//P2P message handlers
{"msg":{"cmd":"inv", function (node,inv_data) { %MyNode%->send_getdata(node,inv_data); } }}, //send get data message to the node sending the inv
{"msg":{"cmd":"block", function (node,block_data) { %MyNode%->validate_block(node,block_data); } } }, // call %MyNode% module method on the data
or implement the block validation protocol
},
//define rpc interface for the wallet
"rpc_wallet":
{
"module":"rpc_wallet",
"rpc_port":16820,
"index":"/wallet",
"page file":"wallet.html"
},
//define http api for block exporer
"block_explorer":
{
"module":"block_explorer",
"base path":"/api/",
"page file":"blocks.html"
}
}
}





To get pedantic on design pattern, the blockchain protocol technically it's already an application layer, and in fact it contain in itself 2 layer, the message layer, and the actual blockchain layer.

The message layer can be seen as the transport layer, it encapsulate the message data, and it's the part that is handled by the node modue, it read packets from the network, and parse the message "transport" layer.

The protocol module is there to deal with the blockchain layer data format, how block headers and transactions and other objects are represented on the network to be transmitted between two nodes. The protocol module contain template like type class to deserialize the message data from the node (transport layer), with run time type definition, in sort that the node can deserialize the message independently of protocol definition. The whole format of the blockchain layer data can be changed, and it wouldn't need to recompile the node module.

The code of the node module is not on the git, but it goes like this

for reading new message from the network

https://github.com/iadix/purenode/blob/master/protocol_adx/protocol.c#L1370

Code:
OS_API_C_FUNC(int) new_message(const struct string *data, mem_zone_ref_ptr msg)
{
mem_zone_ref_ptr key;
mem_zone_ref list = { PTR_NULL },my_list = { PTR_NULL };
mem_zone_ref payload_node = { PTR_NULL };
struct string pack_str = { PTR_NULL };
size_t cnt = 0;
size_t elSz = 0;
int ret,nc;

if (!strncmp_c(&data->str[4], "version", 7))
make_string(&pack_str, "{(\"payload\",0x0B000010) (0x02)\"proto_ver\" : 0,\"services\" : 0, \"timestamp\" : 0, (0x0B000040)\"their_addr\":\"\", (0x0B000040)\"my_addr\":\"\",\"nonce\":0,(0x0B000100)\"user_agent\":\"\", (0x02)\"last_blk\":0}");
else if (!strncmp_c(&data->str[4], "ping", 4))
make_string(&pack_str, "{(\"payload\",0x0B000010) \"nonce\":0}");
else if (!strncmp_c(&data->str[4], "pong", 4))
make_string(&pack_str, "{(\"payload\",0x0B000010) \"nonce\":0}");

        ret=tree_manager_json_loadb (pack_str.str, pack_str.len, &payload_node);
free_string (&pack_str);
if (!ret)
return 0;

tree_manager_set_child_value_str(msg, "cmd" , &data->str[4]);
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(msg, "size", (*((unsigned int *)(&data->str[16]))));
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(msg, "sum" , *((unsigned int *)(&data->str[20])));
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(msg, "cnt" , cnt);
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(msg, "elSz", elSz);
tree_manager_node_add_child (msg, &payload_node);





code from the node module


Code:
if (tree_manager_create_node("emitting", NODE_BITCORE_MSG, &msg))
{
new_message(get_con_lastline(node_con), &msg);   // create the message type template based on the message command
tree_manager_node_add_child(node, &msg);
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(&msg, "recv", pre_read);
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(&msg, "done", 0);
release_zone_ref(&msg);
}

to unserialize the message based on the runtime type definition :

Code:

OS_API_C_FUNC(int) read_node_msg(mem_zone_ref_ptr node)
{
mem_zone_ref msg = { PTR_NULL };
struct con *node_con;

if (!tree_manager_get_child_value_ptr(node, NODE_HASH("p2p_con"), 0, (mem_ptr *)&node_con))return 0;

if (tree_manager_find_child_node(node, NODE_HASH("emitting"), NODE_BITCORE_MSG, &msg))
{
       if (!tree_manager_get_child_value_i32(&msg, NODE_HASH("size"), &size))
size = 0;

            tree_manager_get_child_value_i32(&msg, NODE_HASH("sum"), &sum);

   mbedtls_sha256(get_con_lastline(node_con)->str, size, (unsigned char*)checksum1, 0);
   mbedtls_sha256((unsigned char*)checksum1, 32, (unsigned char*)checksum, 0);

   if (checksum[0] == sum)
   {
unserialize_message(&msg, get_con_lastline(node_con)->str, PTR_NULL); //unserialize the message payload based on the template
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(&msg, "done", 1);
queue_emitted_message(node, &msg); // add the parsed message in the node's emitted message queue
       release_zone_ref(&msg);
con_consume_data(node_con, size);
   }
        }






and the actual message processing that should be scripted in there

https://github.com/iadix/purenode/blob/master/purenode/main.c#L1419

Code:
int process_node_messages(mem_zone_ref_ptr node)
{
mem_zone_ref msg_list = { PTR_NULL };
mem_zone_ref_ptr msg = PTR_NULL;
mem_zone_ref my_list = { PTR_NULL };


if (!tree_manager_find_child_node(node, NODE_HASH("emitted queue"), NODE_BITCORE_MSG_LIST, &msg_list))return 0;


for (tree_manager_get_first_child(&msg_list, &my_list, &msg); ((msg != NULL) && (msg->zone != NULL)); tree_manager_get_next_child(&my_list, &msg))
{
char cmd[16];
mem_zone_ref payload_node = { PTR_NULL };
int ret;

if (!tree_manager_get_child_value_str(msg, NODE_HASH("cmd"), cmd, 12, 16))continue;

tree_manager_find_child_node(msg, NODE_HASH("payload"), NODE_BITCORE_PAYLOAD, &payload_node);

ret = handle_message(node, cmd, &payload_node);
tree_manager_set_child_value_i32(msg, "handled", ret);
release_zone_ref(&payload_node);
}
tree_remove_child_by_member_value_dword (&msg_list, NODE_BITCORE_MSG, "handled", 1);
tree_remove_child_by_member_value_lt_dword (&msg_list, NODE_BITCORE_MSG, "recvtime", get_time_c()-100);

release_zone_ref(&msg_list);
return 1;
}

int process_nodes()
{
mem_zone_ref_ptr node = PTR_NULL;
mem_zone_ref my_list = { PTR_NULL };

for (tree_manager_get_first_child(&peer_nodes, &my_list, &node); ((node != NULL) && (node->zone != NULL)); tree_manager_get_next_child(&my_list, &node))
{
process_node_messages(node);




The node defintion in the first block of this post would replace the "coin core" module on the graph ( https://github.com/iadix/purenode/blob/master/purenode/ ), where all the coin logic take place, which is the part to check if block headers fit the difficulty, to compute the difficulty re targeting, check the proof of work or stake, check the transaction inputs, etc , but i think most of this could be wrote in high level language script, all the part about protocol consensus and which block is considered valid could be scripted with the high level node definition, scripting call to modules coded in C for the hard crypto part or list processing.

I already have all the code to implement this with the C modules, and it uses the run time type definition so it should not be too hard to integrate a script system based on the node definition i posted above, and to make a parser to have running full node with parameters and protocol consensus wrote in high level language like this.

The thing with data format definition become really useless, it's mostly useful if you want compile time verification, but anyway you can't have this with js, and C/C++ is still very weak for detecting problem at compile time, and it completely prevent true run time type checking.

And unlike in javascript, all the key and variable definition can be sur typed with built in type identifier, with runtime type checking. So can have more design pattern than with javascript.

As my framework is all based on runtime type definition, it allow for runtime type checking, and more robust design pattern than js, and it's all though from scratch to easily build a script engine on top of it.

Where i want to get at with you is that regarding you want to code a new blockchain protocol , it would probably not be longer to code the script engine based on my framework with already 90% of all basic blockchain related code and javascript html5 app / rpc interface already working, than to start coding a blockchain node from scratch, and like this you can have your blockchain programmed already with the high level language that has all the property you want with pararelization, runtime tpe checking, modularity, design pattern & all. And i'm pretty sure we are after the same thing Smiley With clear language, easy to read, dynamic typing, asynch request, green threading, "hard threading" , javascript/html5 compatible, i'm sure we can get something cool.


The point of doing this script engine is to facilitating programming more complex consensus to have protocol more evolved than only checking pow, and facilitate programming distributed application based on flexible definition of node who can run different modules/class exposed as rpc api.

If the synthax remain compatible with json, maybe it can be used as template to generate js objects and or/ui, or use static html5 pages .

And this kind of scripting could really not take too long to get started from the code i already have. And i'm sure you have plenty of experience and good idea to get to a script language like this, to define node/modules interface and global application logic.


And any blockchain can be programmed with it independently of each other, the script engine should allow to easily write new consensus algorithm without having to change too much the underlying code. And as long as the module dependency chain remain ok, apps using those modules should be compatible with the two blockchain.



sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
On the issues with and ramifications of centralization:

Of course, the smaller the number of votees needed to do this, the higher the probability of de facto centralization.

Disagree. Because the cost of voting is not free, i.e. democracy is centralized. Actually a small number of highly knowledgeable whales who have conflicting priorities (such that a stalemate is attained, which appears to be the case now with Bitcoin as you had previously posited) is more decentralized because these whales are not manipulable into voting as a colluding bloc, except perhaps to defend the status quo. And this is precisely the conceptual reason why Bitcoin may still be decentralized. But the danger is that over time the paradigm is a winner-take-all due to either the marginal utility of economies-of-scale (within the Bitcoin protocol) being perfectly constant and/or the inability of the Bitcoin small block, non-shrinking (money supply, i.e. not a deflationary supply) system to adapt to the knowledge age as finance becomes inexorably less efficacious w.r.t. to knowledge value (i.e. the NWO will be able to bring those whales into submission to the higher authority of an externality). I would much prefer if possible a protocol wherein the power of everyone is essentially nil. I think I may have such a design, but I am highly skeptical as I should be.



By the way... our pools are NOT reward sharing as you seem to think.  All they do is vote according to a users preference so that a user may remain offline if he/she chooses to use a pool.  Individuals still retain control of 100% of their funds.

I am operating at a higher level of meta economics wherein your "preferences" differentiation is afaics irrelevant. The users who don't align their preferences with the majority will lose rewards, because the majority can censor every block of the minority. Now go back to the point that voting (i.e. "preferences") is not cost-free and thus is manipulable.

Delegating preferences means users can't be bothered, i.e. the cost of voting is not free. Thus they will not be expert. They will not be able to organize because they can be divided and conquered and many different pet "preferences" (analogous examples from current democracies include e.g. gay rights, abortion, etc). They can even be incited via propaganda to diffuse their efforts into a multitude of preferences.

This is why @dinofelis is correct when he states instead the rules must be hard-coded immutably into the protocol.


sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
I like this post. Will want to contemplate it more at another time when I am less sleepy.

Re: How good is Decred?

By having one's coins locked, it also requires people that wish to vote on Decred's future to have "skin in the game".  It's not a perfect system, but it does incentive people to vote in Decred's best interest.

My fundamental idea is that as long as one is combining several distinct aspects of a crypto currency into one single mechanism having to do everything, the system becomes or insecure, or centralized, and most of the time, both.

The different aspects to resolve are:
1) finding consensus over valid first spendings.
2) securing this consensus (immutability) once it is firmly established
3) coin creation and seigniorage
4) governance of protocol modifications and evolution
5) rewarding special people who do 1, 2 and/or 4, eventually with 3

The reason that combining these aspects into one single dynamics is problematic, is that you get complicated couplings between them.  In my opinion, there are two no-gos : 4) and 5).  4) is orthogonal to immutability.  I know that given that crypto currencies are heavily invaded by software people, they have a hard time thinking of something that shouldn't evolve.  But crypto currencies are not software, not any more than mathematics is software, even though both domains rely heavily on software to have practical implementations.  But the "software implementing a protocol" and "the protocol itself" are two totally distinct things.

The problem with 5) is that you get strategies for optimising obtaining the rewards, which can lead to a serious incentive to go away from the right consensus resolution or the right secularisation of the obtained consensus.  So, while it sounds logical that people "helping the system to come to consensus" or "helping the consensus to be secured" are rewarded for their efforts, the very fact of instoring *mechanical* rewards makes that you are open to strategies of reward maximisation, exclusion of less competitive, although honest, contributors to the system, centralization and corruption.

For instance, the very idea that proof of stake should be rewarded is somewhat strange: the higher your stakes in the system, the higher is the importance, for you, that the system is secure and comes to right consensus, because in the end, that determines the market value of the stake !

Finally, another problem is that the rewards are inside the system, while the true rewards depend on market valuation.  The market valuation can make that rewards as foreseen inside the system become crazily high, and people are going to kill their mother for those rewards, or become ridiculously small, so that people don't do it "for such small rewards".   Reward markets will emerge which will "regulate" aspects of the system that weren't foreseen, and will induce strategies to manipulate said market, like the spamming of blocks in bitcoin.

I think that as long as people are going to go that way, thinking that there should be governance (voting and central protocol power), that there should be rewards, and that all of this should be combined in one single system, one will always end up with a broken protocol in which a few people pump value from the gullible into their pockets and then dictate the fate of the system.

Rewards are a bitch.  You fight and cheat for them.

You will find that one will try to patch the difficulties with more and more involved mechanisms, each of them patching a previously recognized problem, and opening 20 doors for new strategies to game the system.  It can be a fun experimentation, and as we've seen, bitcoin has been running successfully for more than 8 years before finally hitting seriously the errors in its design.  So it can take a long time before the strategies that game the system because of its inherent rewards design, become visible and tangible. 
The security and honesty of bitcoin now comes essentially from the investment in asics that some Chinese guy has made and doesn't want to lose immediately.  The price of the computer is what still keeps bitcoin floating.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
@ladixDev, let's stop talking and instead produce some specifications.

I already have my specification

Did you provide a repository link?

There is the git there :

https://github.com/iadix/purenode

The high level design pattern is this :

http://blog.iadix.com/web/images/wp/diag.svg

 


( now there should be one more module in the bottom added next to rpc server & block explorer for the raytracing )

There are some infos on the site too

http://iadix.com/ico/blogs/en

I dont write a lot of documentation, as im only dev anyway, and I keep the code simple enough for that I can do without extensive documentation, I dont spend too much time into open office to write pdf Smiley


The idea is to combine this

https://github.com/iadix/purenode/blob/master/purenode/main.c

And this

https://github.com/iadix/purenode/blob/master/export/iadix.conf

With script to have the full node definition with high level language, all the part that are relevant to define a specific coin out of block / tx parameters, and the network event handling for the p2p network .

The http rpc interface bind automatically rpc method to module exported function name. And the trick with /api/method http url for block explorer. New methods can be added by adding exported function to the module.

 



sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
@ladixDev, let's stop talking and instead produce some specifications.

I already have my specification

Did you provide a repository link?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Bitcoin is only a speculation and bastion of criminal activity to the masses, and that rightfully scares them. The greater fools (i.e. the majority of the population) only buy at the top of a speculation. So they won't be buying Bitcoin soon (unless Bitcoin's price has peaked in a massive bubble already, which it hasn't yet).

Armstrong points out that people are intuitively making decisions and acting on them. I find their interest in Bitcoin to be along those lines; they can feel the environment shifting and have begun to respond accordingly.

I agree. URGENCY! And that is why I decided yesterday I will not make a forum. We need less talk and more coding. Developers and I can talk in Github issue threads for actual specifications and bugs.

I might make a Wiki. Any one can add to that with myself as the master moderator for now (until someone else capable volunteers). So that answers to questions can be found in the Wiki.

BitNet is initially inflationary while onboarding (hopefully billions of people). When onboarding becomes mature and transactions overtake onboarding, then BitNet becomes deflationary due to burning transaction fees with a perpetually divisible unit (i.e. the satoshi in BitNet gets smaller and smaller as time goes by but never reaching 0, i.e. Zeno's paradox of the hare and the tortoise, but not to be conflated with the Zeno's tarpit). Note that doesn't mean the value of your hodlings get smaller. Your hodlings don't change until you transfer them and then you burn a tiny transaction fee (very tiny!). Actually hodlings will increase due to the interest rate you will be paid for hodling.

Being deflationary, there shouldn't be any need to provide an interest return. Burned transaction fees should reduce available supply such that unit value increases, no?

BitNet is initially minting coins for onboarding so until we reach our onboarding (goal) limit, then it will be inflationary. So we need the periodic interest payment in the ramping up phase to reward long-term HODLING.

Continuing on that notion and Nash's Ideal Money, it may be possible to manage the inflation/deflation tension for stability by monitoring velocity versus supply. For instance, assume a total momentary supply of 1 million units, 30% of that supply having been transferred during a given period of time, and 20% as the target desired.

Targeting is self-referential and can probably be gamed. I don't want to add more potential vulnerabilities on top of a completely new consensus design. The game theory complexity is far too much to ever finish/solidify in 5 years if we complicate it. K.I.S.S.

One question regarding Bitnet: this may have been stated earlier but I must have missed it in that case - what language is intended to be used primarily for app creation? Javascript, or maybe the language you're working on?

Afaics now, I can design so that language agnostic. But we'll know better once we get down into the nitty gritty of specification.

My preference is to offer devs a new and better platform and language, but that may or may not be realistic. (Probably not, until we have more resources)
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
Bitcoin is only a speculation and bastion of criminal activity to the masses, and that rightfully scares them. The greater fools (i.e. the majority of the population) only buy at the top of a speculation. So they won't be buying Bitcoin soon (unless Bitcoin's price has peaked in a massive bubble already, which it hasn't yet).

Armstrong points out that people are intuitively making decisions and acting on them. I find their interest in Bitcoin to be along those lines; they can feel the environment shifting and have begun to respond accordingly.

BitNet is initially inflationary while onboarding (hopefully billions of people). When onboarding becomes mature and transactions overtake onboarding, then BitNet becomes deflationary due to burning transaction fees with a perpetually divisible unit (i.e. the satoshi in BitNet gets smaller and smaller as time goes by but never reaching 0, i.e. Zeno's paradox of the hare and the tortoise, but not to be conflated with the Zeno's tarpit). Note that doesn't mean the value of your hodlings get smaller. Your hodlings don't change until you transfer them and then you burn a tiny transaction fee (very tiny!). Actually hodlings will increase due to the interest rate you will be paid for hodling.

Being deflationary, there shouldn't be any need to provide an interest return. Burned transaction fees should reduce available supply such that unit value increases, no?

Continuing on that notion and Nash's Ideal Money, it may be possible to manage the inflation/deflation tension for stability by monitoring velocity versus supply. For instance, assume a total momentary supply of 1 million units, 30% of that supply having been transferred during a given period of time, and 20% as the target desired.

Lower velocity should result in less new issuance, higher velocity with increased issuance. In the example, issuance would be increased until velocity is back in line. By targeting velocity, all information would be available from within the system rather than relying on unit value or other external factors.

I'm sure there are details I've missed. Thoughts?

One question regarding Bitnet: this may have been stated earlier but I must have missed it in that case - what language is intended to be used primarily for app creation? Javascript, or maybe the language you're working on?
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They're tactical
@ladixDev, let's stop talking and instead produce some specifications.

I already have my specification, and the working code that goes with it. I can already program application with it. There is already the test net with html5 wallet, block explorer, and raytracer. With the whitepapper, spec etc, I already have all this Smiley

There is design pattern, modules, and js code.

The thing is to develop commercial app, also need funding to get good graphician, press release, and doing buzz, and expert or skilled person in several domain.

The thing for music distribution we have been on this even before blockchain existed. We got some good funding before  ( ~150k $) for music distribution thing, where I developed js scriptable web streamer in ATL/XPCOM. This stuff of interface , components, hierachy of objects scripted in js, I know this quite in depth Smiley

This whole problematic of js DOM and web streaming, and the economics involved with music distribution I know it very well Smiley and we have been on this board for very long time, with very competent person as well with the buisness, legal and technical aspect Smiley

Blockchain based app can solve this i think. But im not so concerned about the coin value side of the equation, anyway for me currency never have value in themselves, they have value through what you can get with it. For the moment with btc you can get dollars and other cryptos, mostly, so as currency for me it has close to zero value.

To bootstrap a currency with true value, need to find 2 party who are producing something and need what the other is producing. Like if you have gas producer and car producer , car producer want gas, gas producer want car, the currency help setting the reccord of who own what to who. If one of the two party end up with more money, it mean it can get more of what the other is producing. In the case the market cap of the coin is total gas + total car, because thats all you can get from it.

Outside of this logic, currency can only get value because of some trading trick, ponzi, or speculation craze.

Im not so concerned about value market in itself, or blockchain protocol themselves, for the moment the current protocols seem to do their job as currency infrastructure, even if decision power is becoming centralized with whales & mining farms, as long as the one in power are still wanting to keep it working as currency and way to settle exchange between 2 persons im ok with it, for the moment I dont ask more for it.

And with the application logic, application data is not subjected to the validation by miners or stake holder, any app data is a priori valid for the network, node not involved with the app dont even have to see the data at all, only the block headers. The application layer data anyway escape the power of whales and miners, as it doesnt concern the coin data ( which is the thing that has real economic value), and only nodes running the modules (are part of application affiliate with a degree of verticalisation like private network) Have power on those blocks. Neither whales or miners have power of those block unless they are part of the affiliation. And most of the value is traded via transactions on other blockchain than the application blockchain anyway. The application blocks are mostly data relative to the application either it's content or internal states, app tokens, or whatever else.

The logic for app block validation can be made by the app itself.

My projects doesnt require the blockchain to even hold value at all, application can trade using any coin from any blockchain of which protocol can be handled by the node.

Im not mainly focus on new blockchain protocol for coin or currency, and more in creating easily private networks controlled by application users, and distributed application who can use existing blockchain for payment, or who can use blockchain to have secure distributed data based on application protocol.

The coin we are doing for ico for the moment it's mostly for funding, but that can be pet toy also to play trading, the more value it can get the better it is too, but outside of adding new functionalities and application for it, the whole market value I have to admit it's not my strong point, but anyway most of the value system in crypto world seems quite askew lol

For me i see adding value to currency by making more things available throught it via application, and content distribution is one of the aspect, there can be other things like gaming or scientific computation who can be interesting , at the base of the idea is how you can trade computer ressources in relation with distributed data and crypto currencies, and application are still good way to add value to computer resources uses Smiley

If you can help with scripting engine, or language definition, that is nice, and ill get into doing something like this soon, and I already have all the spec/design pattern for it works.

Starting blockchain protocol from scratch, you need to have clear idea where you want to get at, and few months full time dedicated to code the node/wallet/explorer, even before the application api can even be though of. Im not too much into blockchain protocol design itself too much for the moment, just enough to have working client for most blockchain, and having modular distributed application on top of it.
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I try not to make shit designs like this:

Re: How good is Decred?

Decred is based on PoA which is a research paper written by 4 respected computer scientists including Meni Rosenfeld. However, the security has a major flaw which they admit in their equation.

Notice in their example if a whale had 20% of the stake, then assuming 50% of the stake is online and participating then that whale would need more than 8 times the honest hashrate in order to double-spend, i.e. 88.8% of the hashrate (because 8 x 11.2 > 88.8%), where N = 3 is the number of stakeholders that sign each block.

((1/0.2 - 1) × 0.5)3 = 23 = 8

But notice as a whales' (or colluding whales) percent of the stake climbs towards 50%, the design goes pear shaped and the security collapses:

((1/0.5 - 1) × 0.5)3 = 0.125

Which means you'd only need 12.5% of the hashrate to double-spend. The reason this is so, is because with the control over stake, the attacker can deny to respond to blocks found by the honest miners.

The problem is that to increase the leverage on the side of higher security at low levels of dishonest stake, by increasing N to 3 or greater, this causes the leverage to bite you back at higher levels of dishonest stake as shown above. And it is also damn bad at even lower levels of dishonest stake:

((1/0.33 - 1) × 0.5)3 = 1

Okay that is standard 51% attack but that assumes 50% of the stakeholders are participating in mining! Which isn't going to be likely for any mass adopted coin. Certain all the tokens on the exchanges aren't mining. At  33% participation it goes pear shaped again:

((1/0.33 - 1) × 0.33)3 = 0.29

Actually I am very disappointed that Meni would sign onto work like this. Because when you combine this with selfish-mining strategies on withholding PoW blocks and releasing them late, the security is just horrendous.

This shitcoin is currently seeing a huge rise in price because n00bs don't know how to read a white paper. And thus they don't realize they are buying insecure shit that has no chance whatsoever of being the next big thing.

Its sad actually. Because this shit might continuing going up in price even though it stinks real bad.



Are these the bozos developers?





Note Charlie Lee admitted at the above Redditard that "PoA is an experiment and may not work".

They have hyped promo: The new Decred Promo Video... Never seen anything like it.

But he shills a lot:

And not just me who thinks that. Take a look at what Charlie Lee, director of Coinbase and creator of litecoin, said on twitter and on DECRED's slack:




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The OpenShare design doesn't attempt to prevent a power-law distribution of the tokens (i.e. whales) because that would not be possible to prevent. Power-law (or exponential) distribution of resources is the norm in nature.

IMO power-law distribution of tokens in existing cryptocurrencies is due to the fact that more resources result in more rewards as per protocol. You still have to prove that it is per se not possible to design a currency that effectively incentivizes rational users to own less tokens than their resource share. Even though you had some valid points regarding my proposed scheme, I'm not convinced yet that breaking the proportionality-link between the power-law distribution of resoures and its impact on consensus is strictly impossible. In fact, I'm currently looking into new incentive mechanisms which seem promising in that regard.

The tokens will be distributed to the app devs, users, and content producers, so we aren't necessarily distributing them to whales initially. The distribution will be meritocracy where those who receive tokens do so because of some objectively verifiable "work" they provided to the ecosystem. Speculators will have to buy them from those groups.

That somehow reminds me of an idea I had about a coin where users who contribute to the success of the currency (by promoting it or doing any work that can be at least subjectively verified by humans) would be rewarded (and have most impact on consensus). To determine the rewards, other users could vote/bet on contributions and receive curation rewards similar to Steem. Early birds would get higher curation rewards than late comers. So, it would leverage the intelligence of the crowd. Unfortunately, I only posted my idea in the German section of this forum: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16049813


Instead the design (in theory) makes it impossible for the whales to force onto to the rest of the users what the protocol will be, and it makes it impossible for any node in the system to misbehave because the system objectively detects malevolence and routes around it without employing PoW.
Think of my design as a hive of bees, that routes around obstacles or attacks and attacker. That hive acts as one brain, but no one can control it, because it isn't voting (and thus doesn't have the problem of voting).

That's an interesting approach. I think the crucial thing here is to objectively detect malevolence. As it seems quite possible to build a cryptocurrency that guarantees safety and liveness (for existing) users even in presence of attackers controlling +50% by sacrificing partition-tolerance. However, if such a system relies on subjective scoring rules (like the time order of received blocks), a misbehaving attacker might fork away from the honest nodes, while newly joining nodes would have no clue which fork to join. In other words, such a design must be based on the assumption of weak subjectivity. Are you implying that your design can handle +50% attackers, while offering objectivity and partition tolerance to every users, new and old?

I don't want to try to characterize the difference in security comparing OpenShare vs. PoW, because I think my design is comparable in security, but this needs to be heavily peer reviewed because the game theory for new consensus designs is very complex. Really you should trust nothing until it has been heavily peer reviewed.

At which point in time are you planning to seek peer reviews?
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Bitcoin is deflationary, but it's money supply is increasing atm. It has inflation atm.

That is because people here use the wrong terms. Bitcoin has debasement (which eventually or asymptotically ceases) but its effect on the economy is deflationary.

Litecoin has an advantage because its debasement ends sooner than Bitcoin, so it becomes ideal money sooner. The silver of the crypto world is about to rise to the 1/5 ratio or so.

I wrote the following in private communication to try to explain the upthread discussion more succinctly:

Quote from: iamnotback
Nash's ideal money said that something like Bitcoin's design could end fiat systems and make private fractional reserve banking work correctly because governments wouldn't be able to muck up the metrics in the economy. But Nash admitted that if a deflationary currency is plausible, then it would mess up private fractional reserve banking and his ideal money concept would not be viable. Therefore, my design for a deflationary decentralized crypto currency should in theory destroy Bitcoin and all the other PoW crypto currencies (eventually, not instantly).
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@AM: http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/

You read that?

...

Edit: ah yeah you read it, you even commented on it; btw, i'd really like you to take on his advice and write on a blog. it's very hard to follow you up on bitcointalk with all these nicknames change and all the different people intervening.

I did warn him back then of this:

Re: Miner cartel, Bankster cartel, or an altcoin? Your choice?

I believe what Nash meant is that if there exists a deflationary currency, then the private fractional reserve issuers of long-term loans would have a problem. This is because those who demand exchange to a currency at par to the deflationary currency, demand more over time of any currency which is inflationary or less deflationary.

A deflationary decentralized currency makes private banking non-viable. My blockchain consensus design checkmates Bitcoin's, because PoW can't be deflationary, because the miners either have to be paid with minting and/or transaction fees.

Any way, private banking is going away naturally because private banking is only really viable for fixed capital loans wherein the bank can calculate NAV and cash flow reliably. The knowledge age is incompatible with such financial computations.

Checkmate on Bitcoin, MP and his $billions. I had warned him last year. His control and wealth is going away. Ditto all the banksters. They will own the death of the fixed capital investment age (i.e. industrial age and capex projects), but the knowledge age will bifurcate away from their influence. I predicted all this many years ago.

As explained above, the mathematical topological space of information is exponential vast, such that having the right answer is exponentially more valuable than having an unbounded quantity of random noise:

The end of democracy

...

Interesting that the above essay is essentially the same as my Rise of Knowledge, Demise of Finance essay (which predates his by a few years) in that it is pointing out how knowledge or leadership is non-fungible and how it becomes the post-industrial age economy.



not sure i was aware you were in this thread at that time. Also the dialogue gets easier when there is a collective understanding of a stable [fungible] unit of value.

Money is an information system which attempts to optimize the allocation of our perception of value, so that production is maximized.

But as I have explained and posited upthread, the demise of fungible endeavors in the knowledge age, is reducing the efficacy of fungible finance. Finance won't die overnight, but I posit an inexorable trend is underway.
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BITS sounds cool but Bitstar took it first. BTN is like BTC with an N on it, it's pretty decent.

The exchanges will have no choice but to follow the popularity of a token. And I had the idea for bits (when I was brainstorming with my private BitMessage group in early 2014 and also thought of "iota") before or right around the same time as the Bitstar ANN back in early 2014. Any way, the exchanges can make the ticker what ever they want, but eventually Bitstar will fade into oblivion.

The ticker name is really irrelevant. My project is not about the exchanges, but rather about real adoption. The users can write to each other, "please pay me ___ bits".

No project has an exclusive on the currency unit name. And the ticker symbol is a less important factor for a currency designed for real world adoption.

Members of that disbanded private Bitmessage group included @jabo38, @klee, and a couple dozen others.
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Token tags.

BITS: already taken:

https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_bits

BTS: already taken:

https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_bts

BCN: already taken:

https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_bcn

BTN: can't find any coin with that (probably exists but its irrelevant).

BITS sounds cool but Bitstar took it first. BTN is like BTC with an N on it, it's pretty decent.
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