Topic: Documenting a Purchase between user jenia1 and MrWan for 2 AntMiner S9 Units (Read 513 times)

Nice to see where this thread went since I was away for the Holidays.


All I way trying to do is secure a deal for a person who would have had to wait 2 weeks until he got enough funds on his coinbase account

P.S our deal didn't go through since I went out of stock and Didn't have anything left to sell to the buyer.
I didn't even bother thus to give him any bank details for the transfer.

Either way, I am back and might have some other interesting stuff going on soon. P.S working on couple of websites currently

Oh yes, and I  would kindly ask Donos and  isoneguy to remove the negative feedback they gave me most likely due to this thread, suspecting its legitimacy.

I appreciate this thread and agree that... if the trust on this sub-forum is so low,,,, then why does the forum really even exist?  When every participant (both buyer & seller) is automatically assumed to be a scammer.  I for one am simply trying to learn how to use the board, learn, possibly gain some insight and just maybe a good deal.   I was sort of shocked to see that my first message posted on BCT responding to a WTS ad for used antminers,,, my message was flagged with a "WARNING,,,blah blah blah SCAMMER" alert.  ??!?   I mean wtf.  There has to be a better way.

This is only my second post, so what do I know.   Just trying to make sure I don't get screwed if I ever buy/sell something here.

Well, glad to see guys are discussing here. Obviously there is a problem with trading in this forum and we need some sort of a solution, at least this is what all of the participants in this discussion would confirm if asked. Thanks to op's move who published his trade agreement here I have this:


1- This forum needs a more sophisticated trust network support if possible, time sensitivity and more user friendly ui including specialized visualisation facilities should be added. Some enhancements in calculating and assigning points and positions to members,  may be necessary too.

2- Instead of escrows, we need dispute resolution arbitrators who come to scene after a trade has reached a dead end and controversay situation. The arbitrator may be granted access to some private data of the participants and his only job is to announce her/his judgement based on the evidence. It will be up to the traders to follow this judgement or not, but the the community will be informed

3- Any trade that is to be covered by such a trust/arbitration mechanism should be completely and transparently put in the public domain other with the exception of names, addresses, bank account numbers and so on.

4- For trades to be covered by this social network, at least one of the participants should have enough 'trust' points dependent on the total volume of the trade.

I know, it is not enough but I hope other members would contribute and improve it.

there's only what, 2 or 3 accounts that trade here often that are trustworthy...the rest are noob/shill accounts.

I think that if a seller hasn't made a trade within the past 30 days or so then you probably should doubt their trustworthiness irrelevant to what their rating is.

We both know you're just account farming as usual though...

I completely agree. I think that would be exactly what would make this sub-forum work. A little trust, a little proof, a lot of win.


The thread isn't useless. While it may not help OP with issues, if he runs into them...it does help the rest of us understand that there is a much larger issue at play here. And it needs to be addressed. I don't want to go so far as calling people cowardly...because I just got here....but, cowards. That's the only word for people who start a forum, make it into something like this, and then have zero interest in protecting its user base. Especially when this particular sub-forum could be like a gold mine for those individual miners who just want 1 or 2 miners. This could be the one-stop shop for those people, and those people are going up BIG TIME! It's not just mining operations now, it's joe shmoe at home who wants to make some extra cash because his cost of electricity is cheap or free. Those are the people this sub-forum seems to be catering to, and yet...there's absolutely no visible desire by the leaders of this forum to do anything to help promote and instill trust and confidence in the buying process. That is odd, for any forum...and specifically one dealing in items that are strictly related to making money.

I've used Philipma1957 for escrow numerous times with no issues.

This thread is utterly useless.

Hmmmmm...Yah seems to be like the whole community is in disarray of trust.  Maybe there should be a protocol that the moderators of this sub forum should police.  I think decadentmining has a point of the pics and documented process of a transaction.

1) Prior to any transaction the seller who posts needs to put a picture up with item and forum name handle.  If pics aren't put up with name then post should be taken off by the moderators.
2) Within the same thread some way of documenting money sent from buyer and shipment label with posted date.
3) When buyer receives the item, they can take a picture with name and also post on the same thread to complete the transaction.

Not sure if this will a sure shot way but at least there's a trail and its a little safer?

Thoughts?

it's the moderators that are doing the scamming...they've always been the scammers.

they build up an account with trust and then use that to take advantage of a group buy or an escrow situation...

and then they use their alt accounts to push you down when you defend yourself...

it's a shit show, I wouldn't trust anyone on this forum right now

To be honest, the way everything is going right now, maybe it isn't the best time to be getting into the whole mining business. Sure, it could recover, and maybe it will be at $40k like they predict...or maybe not. Maybe the scammers and losers and other idiots who steal people's coins and money and life will completely and utterly destroy any and all faith in this currency and concept and people will pull everything they have out of their wallets and invest in fiat currency. You don't really know the future...

Right now, I'm concerned as the seeming "leader" in forums for Bitcoin related items has such a stupid issue with scammers and losers and doesn't put any effort into policing this marketplace and trying to assist buyers and holding sellers responsible. I get it that it's not a legal proceeding, and that people here don't have authority like law enforcement, but seriously...how hard is it to say "yes, this seller is known to deliver and has like 200 satisfied customers! upvote and vouch for this guy as he is solid. here's a pic of my antminer and my user name". Why are NONE of the threads on here showing confirmation of delivery and actual mining going on after the fact? If that's never happened, and it's never going to happen, then why does this stupid sub-forum exist? Just completely get rid of it.

I thought moderators would have some kind of vested interest in keeping this forum quality but all I see are obvious scam threads that go on and on and on with little to no moderation, or others that seem a little shady where nobody confirms receipt of their product or shows proof of delivery or it running or anything like that. Who the heck operates like that? Makes me freaking tiny brain hurt.

og fucked me out of .25 bitcoin...

pretty sure that makes him a scammer

I highly suggest against trading on this forum.

Yesterday I gave a bunch of ingrates access to their funds and they still haven't done shit that properly benefits me.  

makes you wonder why they are allowed access in the first place.

And when you sit down and wonder who's ripping people off, it's the same group of maybe 5 people pretending to be more than 5 people.

Very nice read Aliashraf.  Although im new and getting my feet wet here  i really appreciate the senior community like you guiding newbies to one day become future good senior members of this forum.  Thanks!

{For the record: I didn't called OG a scammer, I just complained about his shitty attitude}

I don't understand the reason behind your aggression against MrWan. In Wikipedia community one of the most important, nut shell guidelines is avoiding harassment against newcomers. In their words: 'Don't bite new members' or something like that. This user is obviously a descent buyer who has published his agreement with a senior member of this forum to achieve better security, nothing more!

Back to the main controversy here: Escrow or not escrow, it is the problem!

From my point of view, the need for escrow has a reverse proportion with the social capital. A community has always a measurable amount of social capital that can be used as a facility to boost trade.

Once you insist on the absolute necessity of escrow in this forum you are implying that bitcointalk has accumulated a very low level of social capital. It is a false argument imo. Bitcointalk is the most important reference for crypto ecosystem. Almost all respected and prominent figures in this ecosystem own a legendary id here and most importantly, most bitcoiners are a member or a visitor of this forum. and we are talking about a (currently) half a trillion dollars market.

It is absolutely irrational to overlook the potentials of this forum and stick to escrow discourse just like street smugglers or alike. I think there is a huge misunderstanding here about 'trustless' nature of blockchain based technologies like btc, eth. The protocol being 'trust free' (my terminology) doesn't mean saying no to any 'trust friendly' business model. Even the escrow based model is not trust free and I don't see any reason to get rid of trust forever.

In fact I'm a fan of trust myself. Whenever I use it, Ido business more conveniently and more agile and I enjoy a lot more as it reminds me of how great is living and interacting like a human in civilized society.

Anyway, I recommended googling this phrase 'social capital' and I suppose you didn't care

to start you can check this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital

This is horseshit.. sorry alia bud not all escrows are scum like OG.. try Lauda or minerjones they will assist and be happy for the business.

This whole thread screams scam and you are just retarded mr wan

Thank you Aliashraf!  Your input is greatly appreciated and provides me better insight to trades done publicly like this.  It's unfortunate to find out that there are so many scams that are going on to take advantage of people who are just looking to invest their hard earned dollars into the next innovative idea.  I'll be more careful next time and in good faith that's what this world should be about.  People helping each other out.  Thanks a bunch!!

I personally appreciate this move: making a trade's details transparent. It is great, and guys acting so conservative here and make objections and accuse parties of committing terrible things (scamming is terrible, isn't it?) are absolutely wrong (or they are scammers themselves ).

Their reasonings and my answers:
Objection 1- We have escrows, use them.
    Answer(s):
       - Escrows suck. Their legendary hero, @ognasty is an unstable, irrational person who is so close to fall in the scam valley unintentionally at first and
         deliberately in the future. I tried him few hours ago, he ruined my trade by showing zero responsibility and commitment and acting like some
         drunk, selfish joker who doesn't give a damn for his clients and just cares about the next 0.003 btc to buy a bottle of cheap vodka or something.
        
      
      - Escrows cost money. And considering our micro trading habits, this is a considerable money.

      - Escrows, here, do not engage in dispute resolution. They are not interested in the contract's details. They hold money and pray for nothing bad
        being happening and in the situations that god doesn't cooperate and something unusual happens, they are nothing more than a frustrated, useless
        person who begs for the nightmare to end.

Objection 2- This is irrelevant, people are not interested in your trade details, we are not used to other than WTS/WTB shit, ...
   Answer:
       - On the contrary, this post is one of the most relevant ones in this subforum ever, imo. I found a useful template for trading preorders here and I'm
         grateful and have to say thanks to the OP:
                                       Thank you MrWan for transparency and sharing your experience here.

Objection 3- This is useless, and has no legal effect.
   Answer(s):
       - It is a public forum. While it is not a court, people can judge each other, granting/revoking credit to/from a member and this way, they can
         reduce scam risks and the need for escrows or at least decrease the load and sensitivities ( which I believe have made someone like
         @ognasty an unreliable, crazy drunk )

       - This is a 'document'. Two members (one being a newbie, tho) are providing a reference for future use, in case they may find it necessary. Non of
          the parties want to go to a court, but even in that case, this document is good enough to be used as an evidence.

Objection 4- OP is noob, They are suspected to be scammers by default
   Answer(s):
       - Not all fresh accounts are made just to commit fraud. Be open and have good faith, for the god sake, it is a dynamic community and is growing up
         very fast. catch up!

       - Nah sayers, have missed a single but very important point here. MrWan, the OP, is noob but Jenia1 is senior member. The thing is MrWan is the
         buyer, he is paying money in advance, he needs protection and Jenia is using her/his credit in this forum to convince MrWan. I believe it
         works!

Lets focus on my last argument a bit more:
Personally I don't trade my Id here in bitcointalk and won't jeopardize my reputation for a few thousand bucks, do you? Besides my principals and commitment to my parents' educations  and expectations and from a sole economical point of view, my Id worths a lot more than 10k$. You know why?

I'm a programmer and I earn more than 40$/h (which is a LOT, here in Iran ) and if you check my posts, you can see I have spent a lot of time writing them (considering the fact that English is not my first language, it is even harder to compose a post like this for me). So my Id and my reputation in this forum have cost me how much? I tell you: it is not less than 50K$.

Being a scam or an educated, cultured person a senior member here in this site has an asset that worths tens of dollars: her/his Id! It is more than feasible to use this asset to secure their trade just like a mortgage. And this is what MrWan has understood and is leveraging as lubricant for his trust issues in this trade.

Theoretically speaking, I'm mentioning the term 'social capital' here. You can just google it and find out how important is this for our ecosystem and community to lubricate trade and reduce escrow costs, risks and complications which at this very moment is a complete bottleneck of its own.
Again: Thank you MrWan for your innovative approach to trade here, and welcome to our community. Cheers.

That provide near 0 protection, accounts that follow these reqs are traded all the time for pennies on your scammed dollars. ^_^"

Heyah Rocky!  I'm just curious though it's so hard to put trust out there.  The process i was going by was trying to go with a deal with a more senior member of the forum.  Especially with multiple posts within different years. 

Rofl, the routes scammers go now.

Posting on a forum gives him NO protection.

99% of the posts now in marketplace are scammers.

yes escrow is safer. its just that he had deposit limits on coinbase so we decided to go like that. I offered to record it here so he just gets some sort of protection. although scamming was never one of my intentions from the start

you know escrow more safe for both stranger doing transaction right...