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virtualfaqs

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Quote from: FenixRD on February 21, 2014, 06:15:59 PM

Quote from: virtualfaqs on February 21, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: FenixRD on February 21, 2014, 04:10:07 PM

BTW, you can in fact enable Authy with PayPal, IIRC...?

EDIT: 2FA on PayPal is not GA or Authy compatible but it does exist: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin?cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside&bn_r=o

Yes. But the problem is there's no way for sellers to know this. I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing the buyer has 2FA obviously. If anyone knows how to check, let me know.

Agreed, that would be very useful. I was not aware that PP chargebacks sellers in the event of hacked accounts. If someone buys a TV with a hacked account, I can't imagine they do anything but try to find the criminal and/or recover the TV. Digital goods as traditionally defined are different for the same logical process that makes piracy different from theft. As neither a TV nor a bitcoin can be copied, bitcoins must be treated like physical goods. I thought the issues with chargebacks involved buyers contesting proof of delivery.

I wouldn't treat them as physical goods. They are unique intangible goods with "unofficial proof of delivery" that aren't recognized by chargeback enforcers. Like I said before Bitcoin is a whole different monster. General guideline is if you're not 95% sure your buyer won't chargeback then don't sell to them. I've sold $2000 in digital goods before to an eBay buyer who had feedback showing a $5000 high-end purchase in their eBay feedback. Establish their identity with some verification techniques to make sure the account isn't hacked and felt my risk was under 5%. Even then I was nervous of the sale. It's never going to be very straightforward and each buyer will be different. I've figured out mostly through experience and of course writing the PayPal Virtual FAQ helps too. You'll always be anxious all the time though. As long as the chargeback window is open. Hard to get a good night's sleep.

There used to be some secret methods on PayPal called Mass Pay that you can tell used bank funds rather then credit card. But it was extremely difficult to get customers to pay that way since they had to have $$$ in their PayPal account. They don't offer that method anymore. Those were some interesting days of who could figure out the PayPal system better then the other.

Wow. I'm an idiot. I should write a Bitcoin Virtual FAQ too. Could probably make some decent money.

Here's the PayPal Virtual FAQ I wrote in 2010. It hasn't been updated.
http://virtualfaqs.com/forum/paypal/574-paypal-virtual-faq.html

FenixRD

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Quote from: virtualfaqs on February 21, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: FenixRD on February 21, 2014, 04:10:07 PM

BTW, you can in fact enable Authy with PayPal, IIRC...?

EDIT: 2FA on PayPal is not GA or Authy compatible but it does exist: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin?cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside&bn_r=o

Yes. But the problem is there's no way for sellers to know this. I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing the buyer has 2FA obviously. If anyone knows how to check, let me know.

Agreed, that would be very useful. I was not aware that PP chargebacks sellers in the event of hacked accounts. If someone buys a TV with a hacked account, I can't imagine they do anything but try to find the criminal and/or recover the TV. Digital goods as traditionally defined are different for the same logical process that makes piracy different from theft. As neither a TV nor a bitcoin can be copied, bitcoins must be treated like physical goods. I thought the issues with chargebacks involved buyers contesting proof of delivery.

virtualfaqs

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Quote from: dottom on February 20, 2014, 09:33:54 PM

I just received 3 'unauthorized' disputes today from Paypal and 1 chargeback since my last post this morning.

It's total scammerville on ebay and Paypal. I feel bad for all of the sellers there right now - if you are selling anythign bitcoin related you will get scammed. It's not even a "cost of doing business" which is the usual warning to ebay sellers... it's a total outright scamfest.

Even filtering for ebay accounts that were over 1 year old and verified paypal addresses in the US, I got scammed. This last scammer had an ebay account that was open in 2004 and verified paypal account. Learned my lesson, again.

For that 1 year old account, did you make sure the eBay and PayPal account wasn't hacked?

virtualfaqs

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Quote from: FenixRD on February 21, 2014, 04:10:07 PM

BTW, you can in fact enable Authy with PayPal, IIRC...?

EDIT: 2FA on PayPal is not GA or Authy compatible but it does exist: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin?cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside&bn_r=o

Yes. But the problem is there's no way for sellers to know this. I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing the buyer has 2FA obviously. If anyone knows how to check, let me know.

FenixRD

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No, no, no. PP execs don't have any desire to screw sellers preferentially. Why would they, as a business that must be desirable enough to both sellers and buyers to be usable? Their contracts with Visa and the rest require them to maintain a certain very low percentage of buyer complaints, however; and those come from consumer protection regulations, mostly.

The first part of that should have been self-evident. The why requires research, which I've summarized for you, since I've done it before. We'll see if you listen, since the first one demonstrates a tendency toward illogical conclusions based on emotion, but I hope that's not the rule.

BTW, you can in fact enable Authy with PayPal, IIRC...?

EDIT: 2FA on PayPal is not GA or Authy compatible but it does exist: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin?cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside&bn_r=o

Trance

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They will eventually make their own cryptocurrency ;P

dottom

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Quote from: LilithX on February 21, 2014, 10:10:46 AM

I have no doubt they will eventually jump on the bandwagon. At this point they don't understand it completely and they want to make sure they know what they're doing and how to handle it properly when issues arrive. When they see that the whole world is getting into it, they have nothing left to do but join in along with everyone else. All they need is time.

PP won't jump on the Bitcoin bandwagon - never - for one simple reason: no reversibility of transactions. They can't screw the sellers if they can't control the funds. I suppose they could create hosted wallets and only allow btc transfers to another PP hosted wallet and then put controls in place on how long it takes to withdraw. But even if you withdraw funds to a bank account and get it in a few days, PP can still reverse it. They can't reverse a btc withdrawal to a wallet they don't host.

PP owes some culpability and I'm waiting for their next settlement with state AG's.

Almost all other financial services requires some minimum confirmation before allowing the transaction. Paypal and ebay try to make it as easy as possible to "one click buy" which means any hackers who comprise a user's ebay account can then buy stuff which the legitimate Paypal owner then later disputes - either directly with Paypal or via their bank/credit card (primary or backup funding sources on Paypal).

Ebay/Paypal won't add two factor authentication even though it is so easy to do these days with online apps like Google Authenticator or Authy or SMS or many other options. This would cut down on 90% of the fraud and also go a long ways at helping sellers win cases. Ebay/Paypal figure the % of sellers that are scammed are relatively low overall they are willing to let it happen because the revenue gained from "ease of use" far outweighs "dealing with fraud" and then they modify their policies to make the sellers bare all of the risk so they have administrative costs to process claims but aren't out the money - take it from seller accounts.

Unfortunately, even long-time users like me weren't aware of this because we had smaller transactions go fine for years. But once you venture into any kind of product that is on the scammer's radar, then it's total scamsville. It's not the odd rotten apple here and there, it's like entering a store full of pickpockets when selling virtual goods on ebay.

LilithX

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I have no doubt they will eventually jump on the bandwagon. At this point they don't understand it completely and they want to make sure they know what they're doing and how to handle it properly when issues arrive. When they see that the whole world is getting into it, they have nothing left to do but join in along with everyone else. All they need is time.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: dottom on February 20, 2014, 09:33:54 PM

I just received 3 'unauthorized' disputes today from Paypal and 1 chargeback since my last post this morning.

It's total scammerville on ebay and Paypal. I feel bad for all of the sellers there right now - if you are selling anythign bitcoin related you will get scammed. It's not even a "cost of doing business" which is the usual warning to ebay sellers... it's a total outright scamfest.

Even filtering for ebay accounts that were over 1 year old and verified paypal addresses in the US, I got scammed. This last scammer had an ebay account that was open in 2004 and verified paypal account. Learned my lesson, again.

I think people are just using PPs weakness to their advantage and using it to score some free coins. It's like a fraud free for all using PP.

dottom

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Quote from: ZooKeeper74 on February 21, 2014, 01:25:12 AM

I always wondered why anyone was willing to sell it via paypal,but assumed they just needed to log the comms and record blockchain info in case I tried to reverse it. It wouldnt be hard to prove the transaction went through.

You can prove the transaction went through just fine, but that isn't enough evidence for Paypal to rule in your favor.

Even if you printed a paper wallet and shipped it with delivery confirmation and signature, Paypal still won't rule in your favor. It's an automatic easy-to-win dispute for the buyer which is why there are so many scammers doing it now. You also have hacked Paypal accounts where they use BTC to cash out. They can' t just transfer to other paypal accounts and cash out because eventually there will be a bank account or credit card that connects to a real user (plus Paypal limits on transferring to/from unverified accounts). But use the Paypal account to buy BTC or other virtual goods (MMO in-game virtual currency) and then you can transfer the virtual goods around without being traced.

ZooKeeper74

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I bought a large sum of btc via paypal from people who did not know me at all,over the last couple of years, I always wondered why anyone was willing to sell it via paypal,but assumed they just needed to log the comms and record blockchain info in case I tried to reverse it. It wouldnt be hard to prove the transaction went through.

dottom

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I just received 3 'unauthorized' disputes today from Paypal and 1 chargeback since my last post this morning.

It's total scammerville on ebay and Paypal. I feel bad for all of the sellers there right now - if you are selling anythign bitcoin related you will get scammed. It's not even a "cost of doing business" which is the usual warning to ebay sellers... it's a total outright scamfest.

Even filtering for ebay accounts that were over 1 year old and verified paypal addresses in the US, I got scammed. This last scammer had an ebay account that was open in 2004 and verified paypal account. Learned my lesson, again.

dottom

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If you sell any virtual goods, including mining contracts, and use Paypal you will get screwed.

I've talked to 8 sellers this week who got screwed by the same buyer. She reversed all the Paypal charges for 14 auctions on the same day. Paypal doesn't care that it's an obvious fraudulent buyer (or a buyer with a hacked Paypal account), Paypal just takes it out on the buyer.

If the buyer loses the Paypal reversal, which is rare for virtual goods, they then dispute the charges with the bank. Paypal then immediately rules in favor of the buyer even if you won the original case (which is almost impossible for virtual goods).

ebay/paypal for virtual goods is a nightmare. Some haven't gotten bit. Some try to use some filters such as verifying an ebay account with good history or matching verified paypal email address to ebay email address... but you will still get bit. It's just too easy for a buyer to screw the seller and Paypal policies all stacked against the seller.

overunity

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I would just like to thank any one who actually contacted e-bay .
We have at least got them to adjust their policy regarding the sale of bitcoin.
I noticed that their are currently no bitcoins at all for sale there which is either a wise decision by sellers or a clearout by e-bay .

So come Feb 10th on their UK site which is the one I spoke to ,they will have a dedicated area for selling bitcoin and similar currencies .

Congratulations all !!!!

overunity

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Quote from: FenixRD on January 10, 2014, 06:04:57 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 10, 2014, 02:39:00 PM

I understand what you mean about a contract but I cannot see anyone on e-bay signing a contract when there are others willing to send bitcoin as soon as the payment is made .
Maybe if we put in the description your contract terms and that by bidding on the item you accept blockchain's information as proof of delivery then even if paypal chargeback the money we could have a case in the small claims court .
But getting paypal and e-bay to accept blockchain as official proof would save a lot of uncertainty .

Oh I agree... I guess I'm just being pedantic. So much "all paypal for BTC is scam!!!" threads get to me a bit. I don't do much this way at all, and it seems silly, with PayPal's 2.9%, but some people are just hellbent on using PayPal. Market need, I address it, by creating bulletproof contracts. Of course it'd be more ideal I'd they recognized BTC in the first place.

I agree ,I wanted to sell on e-bay simply because it has already done all the marketing is popular and has no minimum sell limit .
But without them officially accepting some form of proof I may as well just give bitcoin away fre lol.

The only way to get people to enter into a contract I can see ,is if I set up a webste ,I was hoping to make small amounts of bitcoin reasonably affordable and accessible for new entrants into this coin.

FenixRD

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Quote from: overunity on January 10, 2014, 02:39:00 PM

I understand what you mean about a contract but I cannot see anyone on e-bay signing a contract when there are others willing to send bitcoin as soon as the payment is made .
Maybe if we put in the description your contract terms and that by bidding on the item you accept blockchain's information as proof of delivery then even if paypal chargeback the money we could have a case in the small claims court .
But getting paypal and e-bay to accept blockchain as official proof would save a lot of uncertainty .

Oh I agree... I guess I'm just being pedantic. So much "all paypal for BTC is scam!!!" threads get to me a bit. I don't do much this way at all, and it seems silly, with PayPal's 2.9%, but some people are just hellbent on using PayPal. Market need, I address it, by creating bulletproof contracts. Of course it'd be more ideal I'd they recognized BTC in the first place.

overunity

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Quote from: Kungfucheez on January 07, 2014, 01:31:49 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 05, 2014, 07:32:35 AM

I have today spoken to e-bay about protection for bitcoin sellers .

The representative outlined their concerns with digital items including ,games ,antivirus software .
They can offer protection for physical goods because they know how to track postage and that the buyers actually received the goods bought .
But any virtual,digital goods are impossible to track so they blanket do not protect these transactions .
You can put up adverts and sell but if you have a dispute or your advert reported it is likely to end in your adverts being taken down and a warning of some sort issued .

I explained that unlike other digital items the protocol behind bitcoin is an official record of every transaction of every bitcoin transfered from one address to another and that they could turn paypal and ebay into an acceptable place to sell bitcoin simply by understanding and accepting blockchain.info as an official record of bitcoin transactions .

I explained that if they implemented a policy that officially recognised blockchain info as a receipt and proof of transaction they could protect buyer and seller .
paypal protects buyer .
Blockchain protect seller .

I also explained that the other option was to sell on localbitcoins.com but they need you to have a margin of one bitcoin to trade there which currently stands at around $900 /600pounds which is to much for small players .E-bay which has currently no minimum would therefore be preferable with a minor tweek in policy .

I would like the help of the community to turn paypal and ebay into bitcoin friendly environments .

The more people that phone ebay /paypal asking for blockchain info to be recognised as an official form of ledger to prove the seller transfered the coin to the address supplied by the buyer ,the more likely they are to implement this policy .
All we need is people to pick up the phone and request blockchain info be official proof of transaction .
I do not think their is a big conspiracy against bitcoin they currently do not know how to track transactions ,please let them know .

Thank you peeps .

You know, that's actually really sensible, logical, and a smart way of implementing bitcoin into eBay and Paypal. I seriously doubt they view bitcoins and crypto-currency as profit-stealing or whatever you nutjobs claim. They just want to ensure protection for buyers, which is sensible. So by making bitcoin a more secure form of currency and providing enough evidence and proof to them that it can be used sensibly, they might just re-format their policies

Thank you I'am glad someone else can see my point ,the only thing they focused on in our conversation is the fact that they cannot offer protection since there is no way with normal digital items to prove you got it .
So in most cases the dispute ends up favouring the buyer since the money is the only traceable item, I do feel with enough people contacting them something could come of this .
It really is up to the community as a couple people contacting them will not be enough pressure . I can only talk to them so many times but without help I think it will be a waste of time in the immediate future.

overunity

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Quote from: FenixRD on January 09, 2014, 06:44:18 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 09, 2014, 12:12:19 PM

Quote from: FenixRD on January 08, 2014, 03:54:22 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 08, 2014, 03:39:08 PM

Quote from: jcoin200 on January 08, 2014, 03:31:02 PM

I purchased paper wallets that were advertised to have 1 BTC each, but they had 0 each. The person reviewing the case apparently ignored the blockchain information showing absolute proof that the wallets had 0 balance. Don't expect the eBay dispute reviewer to use the blockchain info, or even basic logic when deciding on the case. I am not using eBay & DEFINITELY not PayPal for BTC transactions.

This backs up what I was told .
They do not understand that the blockchain exists let alone know how to use it ,if we can educate them ,maybe there is some hope ,the more that contact them with this info the more chance there is .
Unless like lots believe there is a conspiracy against Bitcoin .
I find people fear what they do not understand ,ebay are no different .
If they understand that their paypal could incorporate bitcoin wallets into their format then maybe we could make progress.

Yeah, FYI this is not what I was advocating. Guess my business model is secure after all, since I spelled it out and it's still a mystery.

Your model is secure ,but understand that paypal and e-bay will side with the buyer regardless, since they have not officially said any were that blockchain information will 100% prove you sent bitcoin anywere .
The only place you could stand a chance is in court ,but you need very deep pockets to do this trust me .So in the end right or wrong ,people with average income lose always in the legal framework .

Well, my pockets aren't empty, so that helps my confidence. That said, again: the contract doesn't rely on anyone reading blockchain to determine proof of Bitcoin delivery. The blockchain merely is the proof of services rendered. It's a receipt. I could use it the same way and provide a delivery service of anything, and say that 0.0001 appearing at address X from address Y will signify delivery of your pizza, and if you sign the contract, you agree that is the only proof you need of pizza delivery. Perhaps there was a PS2H set up where, upon arrival with your pizza, I pick up a post it with the other half of the key, and release the 1 mBTC. You now know your pizza has arrived.

There are better ways, just like there are better ways of getting BTC than paypal, but their lack of recognition isn't a problem with a properly-written contract. The problem is with verbal or poorly-written contracts, where it falls on Paypal to figure it out. An airtight contract is not an issue.

I understand what you mean about a contract but I cannot see anyone on e-bay signing a contract when there are others willing to send bitcoin as soon as the payment is made .
Maybe if we put in the description your contract terms and that by bidding on the item you accept blockchain's information as proof of delivery then even if paypal chargeback the money we could have a case in the small claims court .
But getting paypal and e-bay to accept blockchain as official proof would save a lot of uncertainty .

FenixRD

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Quote from: overunity on January 09, 2014, 12:12:19 PM

Quote from: FenixRD on January 08, 2014, 03:54:22 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 08, 2014, 03:39:08 PM

Quote from: jcoin200 on January 08, 2014, 03:31:02 PM

I purchased paper wallets that were advertised to have 1 BTC each, but they had 0 each. The person reviewing the case apparently ignored the blockchain information showing absolute proof that the wallets had 0 balance. Don't expect the eBay dispute reviewer to use the blockchain info, or even basic logic when deciding on the case. I am not using eBay & DEFINITELY not PayPal for BTC transactions.

This backs up what I was told .
They do not understand that the blockchain exists let alone know how to use it ,if we can educate them ,maybe there is some hope ,the more that contact them with this info the more chance there is .
Unless like lots believe there is a conspiracy against Bitcoin .
I find people fear what they do not understand ,ebay are no different .
If they understand that their paypal could incorporate bitcoin wallets into their format then maybe we could make progress.

Yeah, FYI this is not what I was advocating. Guess my business model is secure after all, since I spelled it out and it's still a mystery.

Your model is secure ,but understand that paypal and e-bay will side with the buyer regardless, since they have not officially said any were that blockchain information will 100% prove you sent bitcoin anywere .
The only place you could stand a chance is in court ,but you need very deep pockets to do this trust me .So in the end right or wrong ,people with average income lose always in the legal framework .

Well, my pockets aren't empty, so that helps my confidence. That said, again: the contract doesn't rely on anyone reading blockchain to determine proof of Bitcoin delivery. The blockchain merely is the proof of services rendered. It's a receipt. I could use it the same way and provide a delivery service of anything, and say that 0.0001 appearing at address X from address Y will signify delivery of your pizza, and if you sign the contract, you agree that is the only proof you need of pizza delivery. Perhaps there was a PS2H set up where, upon arrival with your pizza, I pick up a post it with the other half of the key, and release the 1 mBTC. You now know your pizza has arrived.

There are better ways, just like there are better ways of getting BTC than paypal, but their lack of recognition isn't a problem with a properly-written contract. The problem is with verbal or poorly-written contracts, where it falls on Paypal to figure it out. An airtight contract is not an issue.

overunity

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Quote from: FenixRD on January 08, 2014, 03:54:22 PM

Quote from: overunity on January 08, 2014, 03:39:08 PM

Quote from: jcoin200 on January 08, 2014, 03:31:02 PM

I purchased paper wallets that were advertised to have 1 BTC each, but they had 0 each. The person reviewing the case apparently ignored the blockchain information showing absolute proof that the wallets had 0 balance. Don't expect the eBay dispute reviewer to use the blockchain info, or even basic logic when deciding on the case. I am not using eBay & DEFINITELY not PayPal for BTC transactions.

This backs up what I was told .
They do not understand that the blockchain exists let alone know how to use it ,if we can educate them ,maybe there is some hope ,the more that contact them with this info the more chance there is .
Unless like lots believe there is a conspiracy against Bitcoin .
I find people fear what they do not understand ,ebay are no different .
If they understand that their paypal could incorporate bitcoin wallets into their format then maybe we could make progress.

Yeah, FYI this is not what I was advocating. Guess my business model is secure after all, since I spelled it out and it's still a mystery.

Your model is secure ,but understand that paypal and e-bay will side with the buyer regardless, since they have not officially said any were that blockchain information will 100% prove you sent bitcoin anywere .
The only place you could stand a chance is in court ,but you need very deep pockets to do this trust me .So in the end right or wrong ,people with average income lose always in the legal framework .

Topic: E-bay ,paypal (Read 4552 times)