Economically Unspendable Outputs: A Problem On The Radar - page 2.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: mobodick on March 10, 2013, 11:54:54 AM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 10:09:02 AM

Quote from: anarchy on March 10, 2013, 09:53:30 AM

Luke-jr: Would you ever change any of the core principles of bitcoin:

1) The limited supply
2) The decentralised nature

A yes or no will do, there are no inbetweens to take on that.

No.

Bitcoin has been "sold" to everyone as a specific limited supply, and without a centralized bank.
Changing either attribute without the unanimous consent of everyone owning Bitcoins would be basically fraud IMO.
If someone wants to experiment with different rules of this nature, they can/should make/join a new altcoin (like Freicoin did).

Unfortunately this is not how things work in the real world.
The bigger bitcoin becomes the more we get into a situation where majority vote will be the only realistic option because it become more and more impropable that you can even ask everyone for consent, never mind get an answer.

No, that's the point. Bitcoin is already big enough that changing these unanimous-consent things is impossible.

Uglux

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Quote from: justusranvier on March 10, 2013, 12:09:08 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM

This topic has derailed into ~~politics~~ trolling.

Life gets a lot better when you start using the "Ignore" feature.

That is called ignorance, and is the reason for a lot of problems. It is not a solution. Tongue

mobodick

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM

Quote from: mobodick on March 10, 2013, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:31:45 AM

Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?

Why?
Because otherwise you wouldn't even have a computer to have internet on to ask that question.
How do you want to use bitcoin without a fiat economy? Light signaling? Pigeon post?

This topic has derailed into politics.

Sorry, i am not in the mood to do politics anymore.

Eeh, i was not talking about politics.
I was talking about evolutionary biology.
We, as a species that created aculture that created economy, have created the right circumstances for bitcoin to emerge.
Moreover, bitcoin needs this substrate of existing economy. Without it there would be no bitcoin.
There is absolutely nothing political about it.

justusranvier

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM

This topic has derailed into ~~politics~~ trolling.

Life gets a lot better when you start using the "Ignore" feature.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: mobodick on March 10, 2013, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:31:45 AM

Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?

Why?
Because otherwise you wouldn't even have a computer to have internet on to ask that question.
How do you want to use bitcoin without a fiat economy? Light signaling? Pigeon post?

This topic has derailed into politics.

Sorry, i am not in the mood to do politics anymore.

mobodick

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 10:09:02 AM

Quote from: anarchy on March 10, 2013, 09:53:30 AM

Luke-jr: Would you ever change any of the core principles of bitcoin:

1) The limited supply
2) The decentralised nature

A yes or no will do, there are no inbetweens to take on that.

No.

Bitcoin has been "sold" to everyone as a specific limited supply, and without a centralized bank.
Changing either attribute without the unanimous consent of everyone owning Bitcoins would be basically fraud IMO.
If someone wants to experiment with different rules of this nature, they can/should make/join a new altcoin (like Freicoin did).

Unfortunately this is not how things work in the real world.
The bigger bitcoin becomes the more we get into a situation where majority vote will be the only realistic option because it become more and more impropable that you can even ask everyone for consent, never mind get an answer.

mobodick

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:31:45 AM

Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?

Why?
Because otherwise you wouldn't even have a computer to have internet on to ask that question.
How do you want to use bitcoin without a fiat economy? Light signaling? Pigeon post?

phelix

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Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 08:15:24 AM

[...]
Libertarismism is not anti-government, just minimal government. And Bitcoin is not the same thing as libertarianism.
I will freely admit to being an enemy of libertarianism. The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy.

While a monarchy might be an efficient short term government all in all it is clearly inferior to a republic. Power corrupts, thus a monarchy leads to suffering of the people in the long run.

Bitcoin is the opposite of a monarchy - this is one of the reasons I like it. A government should be like Bitcoin - decentralized majority decisions.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: mobile4ever on March 10, 2013, 10:57:56 AM

Quote from: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 08:48:51 AM

This is a re-post of my comment from the other thread.

I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of SD filter patch.

Therefore, Satoshi Dice now absorbs all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Previously, it will deduct a tx fee first and send you 1 satoshi. So you need to bet at least 0.2 BTC or so, to get 0.5 mbtc back. But now even 0.01 BTC minimum bet gives you at least 5000 satoshi back. I presume the change is made today because of all the heat and the patch here.

Great! That is much better news... Thanks.

Oh yeah, now less of people will be working on solving the ACTUAL problem which is Bitcoin's suspectibility to spam.

[irony]
Great news indeed it is. Thanks, Luke.
[/irony]

mobile4ever

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Quote from: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 08:48:51 AM

This is a re-post of my comment from the other thread.

I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of SD filter patch.

Therefore, Satoshi Dice now absorbs all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Previously, it will deduct a tx fee first and send you 1 satoshi. So you need to bet at least 0.2 BTC or so, to get 0.5 mbtc back. But now even 0.01 BTC minimum bet gives you at least 5000 satoshi back. I presume the change is made today because of all the heat and the patch here.

Great! That is much better news... Thanks.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: flower1024 on March 10, 2013, 09:57:26 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 09:48:57 AM

Quote from: justusranvier on March 10, 2013, 09:47:16 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:08 AM

After this discussion I don't trust you. I do not like where you would take this currency if you had the chance. I think you are an enemy.
If some day, by some "unfortunate accident" you become main developer, i will vote for creating a fork without you.

You could probably save yourself some stress by just clicking "Ignore".

Then i wouldn't be able to straighten out his foolishness.

atm i only see your foolishness.
i never saw luke-jr saying "hey let's make stupid laws instead which force you into not attacking Bitcoin". he just made a patch that his(!) bitcoind wont put sdice transactions in his blocks. i dont see any problem with that.

If you haven't noticed, he is proposing for all of us to put pressure on SDICE not to generate spam.
And i say that is a foolish waste of time which could be spent by thinking out new, automatic ways of preventing spam.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: anarchy on March 10, 2013, 09:53:30 AM

Luke-jr: Would you ever change any of the core principles of bitcoin:

1) The limited supply
2) The decentralised nature

A yes or no will do, there are no inbetweens to take on that.

No.

Bitcoin has been "sold" to everyone as a specific limited supply, and without a centralized bank.
Changing either attribute without the unanimous consent of everyone owning Bitcoins would be basically fraud IMO.
If someone wants to experiment with different rules of this nature, they can/should make/join a new altcoin (like Freicoin did).

flower1024

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 09:48:57 AM

Quote from: justusranvier on March 10, 2013, 09:47:16 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:08 AM

After this discussion I don't trust you. I do not like where you would take this currency if you had the chance. I think you are an enemy.
If some day, by some "unfortunate accident" you become main developer, i will vote for creating a fork without you.

You could probably save yourself some stress by just clicking "Ignore".

Then i wouldn't be able to straighten out his foolishness.

atm i only see your foolishness.
i never saw luke-jr saying "hey let's make stupid laws instead which force you into not attacking Bitcoin". he just made a patch that his(!) bitcoind wont put sdice transactions in his blocks. i dont see any problem with that.

its just the nature of p2p: everybody may just act as he want to... no laws needed. just vote with your mhash Wink

anarchy

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Luke-jr: Would you ever change any of the core principles of bitcoin:

1) The limited supply
2) The decentralised nature

A yes or no will do, there are no inbetweens to take on that.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: justusranvier on March 10, 2013, 09:47:16 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:08 AM

After this discussion I don't trust you. I do not like where you would take this currency if you had the chance. I think you are an enemy.
If some day, by some "unfortunate accident" you become main developer, i will vote for creating a fork without you.

You could probably save yourself some stress by just clicking "Ignore".

Then i wouldn't be able to straighten out his foolishness.

justusranvier

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Activity: 1400

Merit: 1013

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:08 AM

After this discussion I don't trust you. I do not like where you would take this currency if you had the chance. I think you are an enemy.
If some day, by some "unfortunate accident" you become main developer, i will vote for creating a fork without you.

You could probably save yourself some stress by just clicking "Ignore".

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952

Quote from: Uglux on March 10, 2013, 09:39:12 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: Killdozer on March 10, 2013, 08:55:39 AM

Quote

Nobody is forcing non-libertarians to use Bitcoin. If they don't want it, it means its not for them.

Nobody is forcing Bitcoin users (or even developers) to be libertarians. It's just you and that bubble you live in.

This statement is irrelevant.
Bitcoin is, by definition, a anarchist/crypto-anarchist currency for the simple reason it cannot be controlled by any central authority.

If you want to use Bitcoin, you have to live with it.

You still think of Bitcoin as an "accomplished" system. But what you say about a central authority is still by far not true at the current state of the network. The hole drama was because of asking sd not to fuck a system in development too hard. Just a (maybe naive) try to ask people, who claim to "love" Bitcoin, but blame at it at the same time, that something like they do is possible to do. "Nothing wrong with me, as long as I am not affected".
It was you fear of "regulation" that led to this political rage... Bitcoin is still an experiment, like human society.

Then I say, let's strive for no less than perfection and make it orders of magnitude better than society. Let's make it as hard as diamond and as flexible as chewing gum.

But Luke-Jr says, "hey let's make stupid laws instead which force you into not attacking Bitcoin". And I say this is incredibly foolish.

Quote from: Uglux on March 10, 2013, 09:39:12 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: Uglux on March 10, 2013, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:31:45 AM

If a day comes that social rules can pressure Bitcoin, then I am out the next day (or I will switch to a fork). Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?

Well I think that day was after the creation of the genesis block. Isn't it true, that if the majority of miners decide to accept any kind of rule, they have the power to enforce it?

Anybody can be a miner, anybody can buy ASIC and vote with his own wallet. This is also a part of the free market which is the foundation of Bitcoin.

Not Anybody. Only those who have the equipment can be miner and not everyone can buy that equipment (at this moment?). The foundation of Bitcoin is the internet, since only there, they can be spent and verified.
I think the MPEx guy said it: Bitcoin is a republic, not a democracy.

We can work on that and make it a perfect democracy. Actually, a lot of people is working on it if you haven't noticed.

Uglux

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: Killdozer on March 10, 2013, 08:55:39 AM

Quote

Nobody is forcing non-libertarians to use Bitcoin. If they don't want it, it means its not for them.

Nobody is forcing Bitcoin users (or even developers) to be libertarians. It's just you and that bubble you live in.

This statement is irrelevant.
Bitcoin is, by definition, a anarchist/crypto-anarchist currency for the simple reason it cannot be controlled by any central authority.

If you want to use Bitcoin, you have to live with it.

You still think of Bitcoin as an "accomplished" system. But what you say about a central authority is still by far not true at the current state of the network. The hole drama was because of asking sd not to fuck a system in development too hard. Just a (maybe naive) try to ask people, who claim to "love" Bitcoin, but blame at it at the same time, that something like they do is possible to do. "Nothing wrong with me, as long as I am not affected".
It was you fear of "regulation" that led to this political rage... Bitcoin is still an experiment, like human society.

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: Uglux on March 10, 2013, 08:43:37 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:31:45 AM

If a day comes that social rules can pressure Bitcoin, then I am out the next day (or I will switch to a fork). Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?

Well I think that day was after the creation of the genesis block. Isn't it true, that if the majority of miners decide to accept any kind of rule, they have the power to enforce it?

Anybody can be a miner, anybody can buy ASIC and vote with his own wallet. This is also a part of the free market which is the foundation of Bitcoin.

Not Anybody. Only those who have the equipment can be miner and not everyone can buy that equipment (at this moment?). The foundation of Bitcoin is the internet, since only there, they can be spent and verified.
I think the MPEx guy said it: Bitcoin is a republic, not a democracy.

Anon136

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Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 08:15:24 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 08:08:33 AM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 08:04:09 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 07:47:07 AM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 07:45:23 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 07:43:17 AM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on March 10, 2013, 07:33:50 AM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on March 10, 2013, 07:29:53 AM

The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy.

as a libertarian i 100% agree with this statement. The form of government that works best does seem to be monarchy. Of course this statement is in no way a defense of monarchy but rather a condemnation of government in general.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: Killdozer on March 10, 2013, 09:05:53 AM

Quote

By using Bitcoin you MUST accept that other bitcoiners do that (never pay taxes, defy government) or at least live with that.

Well yes, I definitely accept that. This is exactly my point. Bitcoin is a technology. What political views it's users might have is completely up to them.
Just for the records, I am with on the fixing the bitcoin instead of banning SatoshiDice, just against this being a political issue somehow.

Yeah, the turn of this discussion into politics was unfortunate, I did not intend it.

Topic: Economically Unspendable Outputs: A Problem On The Radar - page 2. (Read 16492 times)