Isn't it possible to currently send transactions with zero fee?
So why are those small amounts "ecomically unspendable"?
Topic: Economically Unspendable Outputs: A Problem On The Radar - page 4. (Read 16492 times)
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
Sorry, but you are creating this world only in your head.
I doubt, that your bitcoin world will ever find algorithms that stop socially-unacceptable behaviour like...slavery. That "stupid social rules" are everything, that stands between you and and the wild jungle of self interest.
Bitcoin is just another tool, the responsibility of its usage is still with its users.
Ok, I admit didn't make myself clear enough.
What i meant the algorithms of Bitcoin are here to stop people from breaking currency-related social rules like the following:
- Double spending
- Forgery
- Thievery (to a level, when combined with encryption / truecrypt)
- Money creation & devaluation by governments and banks - which is also thievery by inflation
Bitcoin solves these things automatically and internally without using stupid social rules, without the need of central authorities and/or lawyers.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
Sorry, but you are creating this world only in your head.
I doubt, that your bitcoin world will ever find algorithms that stop socially-unacceptable behaviour like...slavery. That "stupid social rules" are everything, that stands between you and and the wild jungle of self interest.
Bitcoin is just another tool, the responsibility of its usage is still with its users.
SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is.Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
To be clear... what is that am I proposing, exactly ?
Quote
If they can send spam, then it is a problem of the network. The network should not allow them to do that or it should make it unfeasible/uneconomic. If it doesn't do that, it needs to be fixed.
This actually reminds me a lot of the logic behind a large games company never fixing something, when they discover a blatantly abused glitch or bug, their response the majority of the time is to run around banning people and locking threads pointing it out. Instead of just fix it which in the long run would be far easier and make them more money because then people could keep playing the game.
Where the fuck do people get off this logic that making a problem illegal or banning it fixes everything? It seems to be a commonly accepted and wrong piece of reasoning everywhere.
Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
30 years ago if you asked anybody and told them about smartphones or how today's internet works, they would probably burn you at the stake.
We, the "other nuts" go boldly in the future and fix the world with our crypto-mathematics. If you don't want to be part of it, them I am sorry for your loss.
While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.Last time i checked, there were at least three different possible solutions to this problem presented on the forums, so excuse me if I won't take your word for that.
SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is.Then perhaps you should stop wasting time whining around like a crybaby and try to find a mathematic solution instead.
Because your (and misterbigg's) posts are like "OH NOES, SDICE IS GONNA KILL US ALL SBDY STOP THEM OMG OMG OMG !!!!!1111one"
The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.
[...]
Bitcoin does not come with a manual or even a contract. Also there is no "city" == central authority. who gets to decide what is morally ok? There are no rules to Bitcoin so everything is allowed.
Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is. The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.
Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !
Your delusions are not an alternative "Bitcoin's reality",
If you think that you can pressure ANYBODY into doing ANYTHING in a world consisting of darknets, peer-to-peer, mathematics, hardcore cryptography, crypto-geeks, ancarchists, libertarians, hardcore goldbugs & deflationists, then it is clearly you who is delusional.
You cannot tell anybody here (including SatoshiDICE) to do ANYTHING. Deal with it.
no matter how "idealistic" you try to make them. There is only one reality, and Bitcoin is just another currency within it.
Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest link in chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.
SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable. So if SatoshiDICE is a problem which cannot be solved using algorithms, that means Bitcoin was a failure from the start.
The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.
Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !
Bitcoin was designed to cope with people breaking (some) rules by having other people filter it out.
While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.
Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !
Quote
If they can send spam, then it is a problem of the network. The network should not allow them to do that or it should make it unfeasible/uneconomic. If it doesn't do that, it needs to be fixed.
This actually reminds me a lot of the logic behind a large games company never fixing something, when they discover a blatantly abused glitch or bug, their response the majority of the time is to run around banning people and locking threads pointing it out. Instead of just fix it which in the long run would be far easier and make them more money because then people could keep playing the game.
Where the fuck do people get off this logic that making a problem illegal or banning it fixes everything? It seems to be a commonly accepted and wrong piece of reasoning everywhere.
To be fair, it is paid for by fees which are bigger than all other sources combined, and will get bigger because of the 0.5% change. Which means it is not spam, but a type of high-volume flow which, arguably, Bitcoin is not ready for.
The current fees are there to deter flooding, not to justify it. Even with fees, transactions are still being mostly subsidized by miners.To use gmaxwell's analogy...
The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
Any rational person can see how ridiculous this is.
If bitcoin can't deal with SatoshiDice, how can it deal with fiat money?
Would it be better for Bitcoin if SatoshiDice were to switch to LiteCoin instead?
Now this is probably the best question that has ever been asked!
Again: you cannot and will not tell SatoshiDice (or anybody else for that matter) what to do with their Bitcoins.
If they can send spam, then it is a problem of the network. The network should not allow them to do that or it should make it unfeasible/uneconomic. If it doesn't do that, it needs to be fixed.
----
Please, stop spreading your stupid FUD.
The whole Bitcoin network exists exactly for the reason of coping with human imperfections (like forgery, double spending, thievery and other cons), so if it cannot do that, that means it is *completely useless*.
Did i make myself clear this time ?
Nobody is arguing against that. The point raised by the OP is that the current structuring of transaction fees only takes into account the current network cost of a transaction and doesn't capture the (indeterminate) future cost of keeping that unspent output available. Did i make myself clear this time ?
If you want to understand it in software terms: intentionally unspendable outputs have the same devastating effect as a memory leak.
Oh, I understand this perfectly. But you are not really on topic.
What is this discussion about is:
- Misterbigg wants us, community to *socially pressure SatoshiDICE into stopping generating spam*
- I (and many others) say that this is *bullshit and a pointless waste of time, because network should be designed to cope with that*. And if it isn't yet, it should be. Why ? Because somebody with really bad intentions will start attacking it using this vulnerability sooner or later.
#2 was seemingly resolved/minimized...
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1604045
I know that 5000 satoshi for the 0.01 Bet size is marginal, but anything much larger becomes spendable, surely.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1604045
I know that 5000 satoshi for the 0.01 Bet size is marginal, but anything much larger becomes spendable, surely.
5000 satoshi is below the minimum tx fee for relay of non-aged coins so how could this be resolved? I think SD added this to work around psy's hack.
Ok. I just checked on github and based on the latest revision dust is considered < 100,000 satoshi
However, the fx rate is 3 times higher since that was decided, so 33,000 is a reasonable comparison now. So any SatoshiDice bet above 0.07 will not leave a dust amount for a loss.
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2100
Would it be better for Bitcoin if SatoshiDice were to switch to LiteCoin instead?
Now this is probably the best question that has ever been asked!
Jump to: