Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB - page 265.

organofcorti

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Poor impulse control.

Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 06:00:43 PM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on February 24, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:42:54 PM

Well, it's not possible to mine forever. If nothing else, eventually people will stop making transactions, and eventually the block reward will go to zero.

Maybe not forever, but if Bitcoin mining stops in our lifetimes, it means Bitcoin was a failure.

Yeah, but the chance that people who have been continuously mining at Eligius since the start of CPPSRB will ever get 100% shares rewarded during our lifetimes is quite low. Ignoring transaction fees, it's probably immeasurably low.

I'd like to see your analysis. I'm not sure you are correct.

aetaf

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Quote from: Luke-Jr on February 24, 2014, 05:57:29 PM

Quote from: wizkid057 on February 24, 2014, 05:53:38 PM

I feel its worth mentioning that short term in my eyes as far as this goes is < a couple of months, and long term being 6+ months which is enough to iron out the variance for the most part in this case. I can pretty much guarantee that if you mine a PPLNS pool (or any pool for that matter) for more than a few months that you will not have actually paid earnings >= 100% PPS.

Your bet needs a maximum limit on variance. With a high enough variance, it's possible to get >= 100% PPS for centuries if you're lucky...

6661.74 Th/s 5661.74 Th/s changes unceasingly, cannot understand?

anth0ny

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Quote from: Luke-Jr on February 24, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:42:54 PM

Well, it's not possible to mine forever. If nothing else, eventually people will stop making transactions, and eventually the block reward will go to zero.

Maybe not forever, but if Bitcoin mining stops in our lifetimes, it means Bitcoin was a failure.

Yeah, but the chance that people who have been continuously mining at Eligius since the start of CPPSRB will ever get 100% shares rewarded during our lifetimes is quite low. Ignoring transaction fees, it's probably immeasurably low.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: wizkid057 on February 24, 2014, 05:53:38 PM

I feel its worth mentioning that short term in my eyes as far as this goes is < a couple of months, and long term being 6+ months which is enough to iron out the variance for the most part in this case. I can pretty much guarantee that if you mine a PPLNS pool (or any pool for that matter) for more than a few months that you will not have actually paid earnings >= 100% PPS.

Your guarantee needs a maximum limit on variance. With a high enough variance, it's possible to get >= 100% PPS for centuries if you're lucky...

anth0ny

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Quote from: wizkid057 on February 24, 2014, 05:40:39 PM

PPLNS variance is higher than CPPSRB. The fact that PPLNS can overpay shares is not an advantage, it just adds variance.

One advantage of PPLNS is that you don't have to wait around potentially forever to find out how much you're going to make.

Quote from: wizkid057 on February 24, 2014, 05:40:39 PM

CPPSRB irons out variance as much as possible, with the pool-wide reward average on Eligius sitting right around 98%... which is expected due to orphans. Keep in mind that Eligius has no fee, if a pool has a fee it is taken off of actual earnings, not expected earnings, so earnings would be ~98% minus the fee.

So that 4.72% (with transaction fees you'd get 102.72%) is solely due to orphans? That seems like a very high orphan rate.

Quote from: wizkid057 on February 24, 2014, 05:40:39 PM

Transaction fees are paid towards the share log to try to offset the losses to orphaned blocks, but it is insufficient to make long term 100% PPS viable currently. It does however, help get everyone closer to 100% than normally possible.

Keep in mind that 100% PPS is not statistically possible long term with *any* reward system mainly due to orphaned blocks.

Well, if you add in transaction fees, which apparently you're doing, then 100% is quite possible.

wizkid057

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I feel its worth mentioning that short term in my eyes as far as this goes is < a couple of months, and long term being 6+ months which is enough to iron out the variance for the most part in this case. I can pretty much guarantee that if you mine a PPLNS pool (or any pool for that matter) for more than a few months that you will not have actually paid earnings >= 100% PPS.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:42:54 PM

Well, it's not possible to mine forever. If nothing else, eventually people will stop making transactions, and eventually the block reward will go to zero.

Maybe not forever, but if Bitcoin mining stops in our lifetimes, it means Bitcoin was a failure.

wizkid057

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Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:44:28 PM

Quote from: MrTeal on February 24, 2014, 05:32:05 PM

For the expected value, I am not sure. I'll cede this one to WK or un_ordinateur. Over time it should be 100% PPS

Maybe if the block reward never went down, and the difficulty never changed...

Neither of these things matter for calculating % shares rewarded in terms of maximum PPS, since the formula for 100% PPS at any given time is (block_reward/difficulty)*work_difficulty.

The expected long term reward with any pool reward system, unless the pool is somehow subsidizing orphans (which means it probably has a fee in excess of the orphan % anyway...) is 100% PPS minus orphan % minus fees (if any).

anth0ny

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Quote from: MrTeal on February 24, 2014, 05:32:05 PM

For the expected value, I am not sure. I'll cede this one to WK or un_ordinateur. Over time it should be 100% PPS

Maybe if the block reward never went down, and the difficulty never changed...

anth0ny

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Quote from: smooth on February 24, 2014, 05:23:09 PM

Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:13:01 PM

Quote from: un_ordinateur on February 21, 2014, 03:28:32 PM

One can see the CPPSRB as a modified PPLNS: Just like PPLNS, each time a block is found, Eligius goes back "n" shares and pays them. The difference is that in PPLNS, if the pool is lucky, some shares might be payed multiple times. In CPPSRB, once a shared is payed, it is removed, and can never be payed again; then if the pool is lucky, it simply goes even more furthe back until an unpayed share is found.

That makes it sound like CPPSRB miners are getting a raw deal. No chance of getting more than 100%, but a very real chance of getting less than 100%. As opposed to PPLNS where you might get more or less than 100%.

I wonder how one would go about calculating the expected value (assuming no block withholding).

The expected value if you mine forever is 100%, though orphans reduce payout relative to 100% PPS with any formula.

Well, it's not possible to mine forever. If nothing else, eventually people will stop making transactions, and eventually the block reward will go to zero.

But long before that, the chances of ever getting your deeply buried shares will for all intents and purposes be zero.

Quote from: smooth on February 24, 2014, 05:23:09 PM

The expected value for some finite time is probably lower than PPLNS but the variance is also lower. Trade off.

But for, say, between now and block 6,929,999, how much lower? 2%? 5%? Doesn't seem like it's much more than that.

wizkid057

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Quote from: smooth on February 24, 2014, 05:23:09 PM

Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:13:01 PM

Quote from: un_ordinateur on February 21, 2014, 03:28:32 PM

One can see the CPPSRB as a modified PPLNS: Just like PPLNS, each time a block is found, Eligius goes back "n" shares and pays them. The difference is that in PPLNS, if the pool is lucky, some shares might be payed multiple times. In CPPSRB, once a shared is payed, it is removed, and can never be payed again; then if the pool is lucky, it simply goes even more furthe back until an unpayed share is found.

That makes it sound like CPPSRB miners are getting a raw deal. No chance of getting more than 100%, but a very real chance of getting less than 100%. As opposed to PPLNS where you might get more or less than 100%.

I wonder how one would go about calculating the expected value (assuming no block withholding).

The expected value if you mine forever is 100%, though orphans reduce payout relative to 100% PPS with any formula.

The expected value for some finite time is probably lower than PPLNS but the variance is also lower. Trade off.

PPLNS variance is higher than CPPSRB. The fact that PPLNS can overpay shares is not an advantage, it just adds variance. CPPSRB irons out variance as much as possible, with the pool-wide reward average on Eligius sitting right around 98%... which is expected due to orphans. Keep in mind that Eligius has no fee, if a pool has a fee it is taken off of actual earnings, not expected earnings, so earnings would be ~98% minus the fee.

Transaction fees are paid towards the share log to try to offset the losses to orphaned blocks, but it is insufficient to make long term 100% PPS viable currently. It does however, help get everyone closer to 100% than normally possible.

Keep in mind that 100% PPS is not statistically possible long term with *any* reward system mainly due to orphaned blocks.

MrTeal

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Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:13:01 PM

Quote from: un_ordinateur on February 21, 2014, 03:28:32 PM

One can see the CPPSRB as a modified PPLNS: Just like PPLNS, each time a block is found, Eligius goes back "n" shares and pays them. The difference is that in PPLNS, if the pool is lucky, some shares might be payed multiple times. In CPPSRB, once a shared is payed, it is removed, and can never be payed again; then if the pool is lucky, it simply goes even more furthe back until an unpayed share is found.

That makes it sound like CPPSRB miners are getting a raw deal. No chance of getting more than 100%, but a very real chance of getting less than 100%. As opposed to PPLNS where you might get more or less than 100%.

I wonder how one would go about calculating the expected value (assuming no block withholding).

Less variance. No chance of getting paid out more than 100%, but a better chance of getting paid out that 100%. With PPLNS if you start mining during an unlucky time that revenue is just gone. You may make it up at a later date by mining during a lucky period, or you may not. Likewise with CPPSRB, if you start mining during an unlucky period you'll get paid less, but should the pool have a lucky period those shares that didn't get paid out in the past might get paid out in the future.

For the expected value, I am not sure. I'll cede this one to WK or un_ordinateur. Over time it should be 100% PPS, but I am not sure how orphaned blocks would affect that as a percentage. I also am not sure if the transaction fees are retained for pool expenses or if they are fed back into paying off shares.

smooth

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Quote from: anth0ny on February 24, 2014, 05:13:01 PM

Quote from: un_ordinateur on February 21, 2014, 03:28:32 PM

One can see the CPPSRB as a modified PPLNS: Just like PPLNS, each time a block is found, Eligius goes back "n" shares and pays them. The difference is that in PPLNS, if the pool is lucky, some shares might be payed multiple times. In CPPSRB, once a shared is payed, it is removed, and can never be payed again; then if the pool is lucky, it simply goes even more furthe back until an unpayed share is found.

That makes it sound like CPPSRB miners are getting a raw deal. No chance of getting more than 100%, but a very real chance of getting less than 100%. As opposed to PPLNS where you might get more or less than 100%.

I wonder how one would go about calculating the expected value (assuming no block withholding).

The expected value if you mine forever is 100%, though orphans reduce payout relative to 100% PPS with any formula.

The expected value for some finite time is probably lower than PPLNS but the variance is also lower. Trade off.

anth0ny

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: un_ordinateur on February 21, 2014, 03:28:32 PM

One can see the CPPSRB as a modified PPLNS: Just like PPLNS, each time a block is found, Eligius goes back "n" shares and pays them. The difference is that in PPLNS, if the pool is lucky, some shares might be payed multiple times. In CPPSRB, once a shared is payed, it is removed, and can never be payed again; then if the pool is lucky, it simply goes even more furthe back until an unpayed share is found.

That makes it sound like CPPSRB miners are getting a raw deal. No chance of getting more than 100%, but a very real chance of getting less than 100%. As opposed to PPLNS where you might get more or less than 100%.

I wonder how one would go about calculating the expected value (assuming no block withholding).

VarDiff

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Eligius was added to my altcoins and mining pools database
good luck, miners

baddw

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Quote from: gravityz3r0 on February 23, 2014, 10:10:21 PM

Quote from: crashoveride54902 on February 23, 2014, 10:04:47 PM

Quote from: gravityz3r0 on February 23, 2014, 09:49:48 PM

Please correct me if i understand this wrongly. I sold my miner about 2 weeks ago, and upon selling this was my outstanding eligius balance:

As of last block:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%
Estimated Change:   +0.00000000 BTC   0.00%
Estimated Total:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%

If i'm not mistaken, shouldn't the share reward be paid to 100% over time even after i stop mining?
I remembered myself stopping once in the past, and the reward eventually crept up to 100% when more blocks are found.
Mine has been staying at 97.22% for a long time. May i know what's the reason behind it?
The remaining ~2.8% of share reward worth about 0.3BTC from the Max Reward chart but i'm not sure if i'm interpreting it correctly. (Difference between everpaid and max reward)

Thanks!

getting the rest of your shares paid off will depend on luck...and who knows how long that'll take

I see, thanks! Do you have any rough estimation of how much luck does the pool require for it to fulfill backlog rewards?

Depends on how far back they are in the backlog. If they're years old, possibly never. If they're a few days old, there's a really good chance. If you remember being up very high (98%+) recently, then you have a good chance of getting that high again.

97% is pretty good, really. I've been as low as 90.X% and as high as 98.X%. All from mining within the past 2 months. I'm currently in the 96% range.

You can't really compare payout percentage on a (modified) PPS pool like Eligius with fees on a PPLNS pool. With PPLNS, after some point (not terribly long), your old shares are simply discarded and forgotten..... even if the pool has fantastic luck, you will never be paid the discarded shares. Eligius is unique in keeping your old unpaid shares forever; but there are always new unpaid shares ahead of them in line. Eligius works backward from the present date in paying out these "shelved" shares.

gravityz3r0

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Quote from: crashoveride54902 on February 23, 2014, 10:04:47 PM

Quote from: gravityz3r0 on February 23, 2014, 09:49:48 PM

Please correct me if i understand this wrongly. I sold my miner about 2 weeks ago, and upon selling this was my outstanding eligius balance:

As of last block:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%
Estimated Change:   +0.00000000 BTC   0.00%
Estimated Total:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%

If i'm not mistaken, shouldn't the share reward be paid to 100% over time even after i stop mining?
I remembered myself stopping once in the past, and the reward eventually crept up to 100% when more blocks are found.
Mine has been staying at 97.22% for a long time. May i know what's the reason behind it?
The remaining ~2.8% of share reward worth about 0.3BTC from the Max Reward chart but i'm not sure if i'm interpreting it correctly. (Difference between everpaid and max reward)

Thanks!

getting the rest of your shares paid off will depend on luck...and who knows how long that'll take

I see, thanks! Do you have any rough estimation of how much luck does the pool require for it to fulfill backlog rewards?

crashoveride54902

hero member

Activity: 784

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Dream become broken often

Quote from: gravityz3r0 on February 23, 2014, 09:49:48 PM

Please correct me if i understand this wrongly. I sold my miner about 2 weeks ago, and upon selling this was my outstanding eligius balance:

As of last block:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%
Estimated Change:   +0.00000000 BTC   0.00%
Estimated Total:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%

If i'm not mistaken, shouldn't the share reward be paid to 100% over time even after i stop mining?
I remembered myself stopping once in the past, and the reward eventually crept up to 100% when more blocks are found.
Mine has been staying at 97.22% for a long time. May i know what's the reason behind it?
The remaining ~2.8% of share reward worth about 0.3BTC from the Max Reward chart but i'm not sure if i'm interpreting it correctly. (Difference between everpaid and max reward)

Thanks!

getting the rest of your shares paid off will depend on luck...and who knows how long that'll take

gravityz3r0

newbie

Activity: 32

Merit: 0

Please correct me if i understand this wrongly. I sold my miner about 2 weeks ago, and upon selling this was my outstanding eligius balance:

As of last block:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%
Estimated Change:   +0.00000000 BTC   0.00%
Estimated Total:   0.00040948 BTC   97.22%

If i'm not mistaken, shouldn't the share reward be paid to 100% over time even after i stop mining?
I remembered myself stopping once in the past, and the reward eventually crept up to 100% when more blocks are found.
Mine has been staying at 97.22% for a long time. May i know what's the reason behind it?
The remaining ~2.8% of share reward worth about 0.3BTC from the Max Reward chart but i'm not sure if i'm interpreting it correctly. (Difference between everpaid and max reward)

Thanks!

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: Scoobypup on February 23, 2014, 06:01:16 PM

If I am not set up to accept the NMC I generate

Easiest thing to do is send them to btc-e or maybe some other exchange. That seems to work fine.

Donating them to the pool op is cool also.

Topic: Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB - page 265. (Read 1061569 times)