Topic: Empty blocks - page 3. (Read 23015 times)

I don't think it was ever claimed that forking was exclusively caused by SPV mining.  You made that statement.  However, what is true is that SPV mining can and has caused forks.

Just for fun, I re-ran things again to see where we are.  As of block 387696:

AntPool 7.61% of their blocks are empty
BW.com 4.14%
f2pool 3.55%
KnC 3.23%
Eligius 2.3%

Is it possible to delete messages? Well I'll spell it out for you then, not all prunes are mangoes.

At least reread what you wrote here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13205770
Yes you can't delete it coz I quoted it also.

Ofcourse it does, and mangoes are prunes though just like not all blockchain forking is due to SPV mining.

Well it only takes one miner to produce a block with 1 bad transaction in it, and that can push ~65% of the mining power off the bitcoin blockchain.
Not detrimental?

The law covers the issue of dealing with someone killing someone else.
However, killing someone else is usually considered detrimental ...... by definition.

This is why people should switch from the larger usually Chinese based pools over to pools like Kano's or others that operate similarly.

Johnybravo, I do not agree with you on the specific issue of the process of SPV mining being unstable in itself, I rather think it is the people who code it that flagrantly implement it - and that is a nod with particular reference to the mentioned forking.

On top of that, forking is not exclusively caused by SPV mining but more importantly there's no harm to "rest of us" when a fork of this nature happens. Infact, forks do happen and the protocol knows about it, thus it can not, by definition, be detrimental.

Nepaluz, unfortunately you're probably correct about there being a tipping point where pools will realize that mining empty blocks is not beneficial for them.  Right now, the generation of 25BTC far outweighs any transaction fees included in a block.  Honestly, I don't understand why AntPool would ever mine an empty block, since they keep the transaction fees for themselves.  It would behoove them to stuff as many large-fee transactions as they could into their blocks.  F2Pool charges 4%, so until the transaction fees are greater than 1BTC per block, or 0.5BTC per block after the halving, they've got absolutely no incentive to put transactions in their blocks.

Where I will disagree with you, however, is in your assertion that SPV mining is not detrimental.  SPV mining has previously caused forks in the blockchain.  The very process itself is unstable, using only header information instead of verifying the actual blocks.

This whole empty blocks cum spv mining is simply "too much ado about nothing"!

The way I see it is there will be a time when mining empty blocks will neither be in the interests of the pool nor the miner, assuming they are separate entities and otherwise, therefore the empty blocks will die a natural death. Before that threshhold is crossed, it can not be reasonably assumed that empty block mining is or can be detrimental to the bitcoin ecosystem, infact, it would be foolish to even think so and downright silly to assert so.

I should add that the only time I've noticed transaction confirmation delays is when the network is under attack and not when empty blocks have peaked. It would also be interesting to establish what percentage of network-wide transaction confirmations is attributed to the pools being pillored for empty block / spv mining against those that do not regularly mine empty blocks.

The only pseudo-substantive argument that I have seen put forward against empty block mining boils down to a veiled effort to lure miners to certain pools, no more.

How? What do you mean to scam the chain?

The answer to whatever scenario you think of is probably not. There is nothing special about empty blocks. They don't have any special properties, they are just blocks that only have the coinbase transaction. In general they are basically a nuisance, they don't really add anything to the blockchain but they aren't detrimental and harming it.

Here is the question I am pondering and I did not see a comment answering this, but would empty blocks allow future access into the BTC system in order to scam the chain somehow?

It depends on the pool.  Some pools use code trickery to try and get work out to their miners as fast as possible.  The technique is to publish an empty block as quickly as possible, then to update it with transactions afterwards.  Well, it can happen that a miner solves the empty block.  Many pools take this approach, and the bigger the pool, the more often you'll see empty blocks.  Other pools fill up the block with as many transactions as possible an then publish the work out to miners.  These pools will never submit empty blocks because their miners are never given an empty block on which to work.

There is nothing in the bitcoin protocol that forces a block to contain transactions other than the coinbase one.  You could feasibly setup a pool that would only ever mine empty blocks.  The downside to mining empty blocks is that plenty of transactions out there will now have to wait until somebody else includes them in their blocks.  With the largest pools out there mining empty blocks, it's quite possible that you'd see a whole string of empty blocks in a row on the blockchain all the while new transactions are waiting to be confirmed.

Do pools value empty blocks, or do they try to not mine them? What really is the point of empty blocks, I thought bitcoin has transactions every single block?

I started to mine bitcoin to gain a little profit. Pre KNC days. I think I've tried every pool that was available.  The most profitable pool I used was BTCGuild. The uptime was probably %99 or better. When the Guild disappeared I went on Ghash (ya know, that pool/company that was going to take over the Bitcoin network) but eventually dropped on Slush's for a while. Wasn't having a good time there so if I can remember I think I hopped on Bitminter. Then Eligius somewhere in there. I'm not talking about just a few days on each pool, I'm talking at least a month or more on each pool. I ended up on Antpool. Always got constant payouts and according to the small hashing power I pointed there it was correct. Then read "bad" things about Antpool and it wasn't good to mine on these Chinese pools because once again they are getting too large and going to take over the world. Well, if you already live in the US you are aware that our economy sucks and basically import everything from China. Our companies and jobs also went there too. Ok, so I pointed 10TH to CKPool and ran for about a 2 months. With all the re-starts or firmware issues, who knows, I could never get the same payouts on that pool as I did with Antpool. Even when I switched back to Antpool after my try with CKPool, my payouts were more. It is nice telling people to mine on certain pools because technical issues that probably %90 of miners have no idea of.  I can't write as elaborate as user sloppy, but what is the little guy like me who's not making any real money switch to a pool that gets less payouts then a hated pool? Everyone is mining to make a profit and they stay with the pool at which makes them the most profit. Hence, greed comes into play and all I want to do is get as much bitcoin in return to pay my electric bill, and maybe some "dust" after that.

They relay and verify previous transaction, they are not useless I do not think.

Thanks for this thread it opened my eyes a lot! and now I feel dirty...dirty but informed about my poor previous decisions haha

Greed will be the demise of Bitcoin. It is interesting though.

Well said Sloopy! I agree with your points and that's why I choose to mine at CK's solo pool as well as Kano's pool. I feel that CK & Kano are truly looking out for and helping the little guys have a chance against these Mega pools. I hope others consider their choices and do the same. Peace 

Thank you, you are kind.

I know most people will say it is too long, too much to read, and many or most will skip on by, but if maybe a few people will read and contemplate some of these things we can have an impact. Even one miner is better than none, and I know there are many great people mining at those pools who just haven't been exposed to an opportunity where the facts have been presented as they are in this thread.

I think one of the best things is that people could make fantastic amounts of money using their hashpower if they used it wisely. Making those pools compete more for your hashpower is what will drive bitcoin into the future.

Every single miner should consider the power they have, and the possibilities are huge by simply changing the pool you mine at for a short amount of time, IE a couple of months just to see,  as it is a vote to say no, you want bitcoin to be the best it can be and it will be controlled by no one and everyone but never the small few.

I do appreciate the kind words, and please help pass the word so more people consider their choice in where they mine. That single choice has the power to make this one of the most fantastic times to ever be alive. Lets make sure we do not give up our right to mine where we want and see bitcoin evolve into the infrastructure of the most beautiful financial system this universe will ever see.

Bravo again sloopy