Topic: [ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet - page 37. (Read 966221 times)

Dabs, that's a concerning reply.

Your attitude seems to be one of "yeah, there's a set of personal information dictated by the biggest bullies, and I don't care why", or suggesting a more effective (arguably the ultimate) method of detecting "thought crime". Do you really not care about the problems that letting it all wash over you causes for others?

But then again, you're part of the privileged class, and the perks of that lifestyle seem to appeal to you. The fact that you work/ed for the most violent/psychopathic arm of government is not so surprising, given your attitudes.

I didn't create the association. It was dictated as requirements by creditors, credit unions, credit corporations and banks. You know, Trans Union or Equifax in North America, ... in the Philippines there is a government controlled corporation called "Credit Information Corporation" or something like that, and by law, all banks must report your info to them.

When you apply for a loan, or just do about anything to do with money or installment plans (not paying in cash in full), you get looked up in this giant database. You know how it is, if you've been late for any payment in the last decade, it's there.

In theory, you could create different identities (with the same name), but you'll get caught when someone looks for duplicates and you won't get the best interest rates. You're normally not allowed to have more than one driver's license (from the same country), or more than one passport (from the same country) or more than one tax identification number / social security number. Yes, special people have "diplomatic" passports in addition to their regular passport, but you can't use that for any purpose other than an official state visit.



If only there is an actual device that reads minds. People get good at this (thus the magic tricks by mentalists.)


This has always been true. Everywhere. I've been to several countries aside from my own. Having rank in the military and government connections has it's fringe benefits. No tickets for the past 20 years and always first in line. (I do not cut in, there's a separate line which no one uses.)

What I'm saying is you can "give up your keys" and he will never know whether or not you have given up all of them. That's completely independent of public perception. The public can be strongly of the opinion that everyone ought to be required to give up all of their keys to the state upon request, and even in that environment this defense still works fine because you can always say with complete plausibility that you have given up all of your keys.


I didn't mean his actual book. I meant he holds bitcoin and he makes the bitcoin he holds more valuable by fostering adoption. That is how he "gets paid" for what he does.


Yea this is probably right.

Yes and no. The motive for the $5-wrench attack is easily identified by a wide range of different types of people. It's theft/extortion, and that is universally condemned.

But for "thought crime" and "pre-crime", there is a large amount of propaganda and psychological game playing involved. That makes identifying the real motive much more difficult (still theft) for regular and below-average intelligence individuals. And that makes it more dangerous, as a culture of accepting the "science" behind it is easy to promote with "you don't understand our pre-crime statistical techniques, therefore do as I say".
 

No, you're assuming he wrote that book too (). To be more on point, I think you could do it, depending on how good you are at public speaking (you're suitably inspired by the topic, so that's one to chalk up in your favour).

But don't misunderstand: unless you've can get access to the same range of platforms that Andreas has (and he gets everyyyyywhere), you'll not be able to emulate what he did. How did Andreas get himself speaking at government committees, tech conferences and fashionable talk shows? It's all about who you know, not what you know.

Yep this is already the world we live in. But right now its very hard to live an alternative lifestyle, trezor would make living the alternative lifestyle more possible. Additionally it would vastly improve your security if you did decide to go the mainstream route. And its use would have massive external benefits mostly realized in the form of lower prices for goods and services for previously mentioned reasons.

Really using the identity that was attached to your real physical person would just afford you a deeper line of credit at a lower interest rate. Simply because it would make creditors more comfortable to know they could find and badger the real you if you failed to fulfill. You are always going to get a better interest rate if you expose your real person, but plenty of people would get good interest rates without doing that im sure.

This is just a variant of the $5 wrench attack. You could selectively reveal some identities but not others. Thats the nice thing about the bip32 tree structure. You have no way of knowing whether or not a given node is at the top of the tree or not.

Well yea by talking his book. Don't know how that would work with trezor.

Unfortunately, the highly creative slave-masters who use the criminal alias "government" are several steps ahead. Not only are they full of talk about "no absolute right to privacy", but the "pre-crime" concept is actually beginning to get talked up by their degenerate criminal associates (a.k.a by their criminal moniker "policy think-tanks").

Won't give up your keys? "Thought crime" will put a stop to that. These "just-following-orders" types need to actually realise that everyday people can secure their own rights, that rights are not always something that someone bigger and stronger allows you to do.


What makes you think Andreas makes a living doing what he does?


Why are you creating an association between those different data sets? What is the common factor between them that determines the benefit of associating them?

Since you put it that way, it is probably a convenient way to carry your entire wallet with different identities with you on a small device. I'll wait till it evolves a little further or the price drops some more. (I don't have a trezor, or any other hardware wallet for that matter.)

For regular world "credit rating" you would need to consolidate everything into one identity though. There's just no way around that. One social security number / tax identification number / social insurance number / driver's license number / passport number. If you're a normal average person who would go through a normal average life, you need to stick to one identity for your home, your credit, your car and any loans from a normal bank.

We do that already anyway. The rest, like you say, can have as many identities as you require, effectively making it like electronic cash, and you simply ignore any "points" or "miles" or whatever. If it's a new identity per new transaction.

You could put an endless series of unique identities on the BIP 32 tree structure. Its personal identity management we are talking about here. This is identity freedom. Identity empowerment.

Right now we are forced to use almost one identity for everything due to technological limits. If you want to get a loan for a house you have to give unfettered access to the entirety of your personal identity. This is the tyranny. Not the freedom that trezor would afford by empowering its users with the capacity to authenticate with the identity of their chossing, without reveling other identities or even if they have other identities.

You could literally have "rep" as a trustful drug dealer. Verify your rep before a client even talks to you so that he knows you arent a cop. Then hand your trazor to a cop and he would have no way of using it to identify you as mr drug dealer. That is like the least Orwellian thing I have ever heard.

What do you guys think. Do you think I could make a living as what andreas antonopoulos is to bitcoin except for trezor?

I'd probably be in the minority when I say this, but if that becomes true I would get rid of my trezor. Privacy and such stuff.

Reality would be, I'd keep one for regular stuff, for convenience, but for everything else I don't want the world to know, it will be offline / off-the-grid.

What you described looks like a database of everything you do attached to a device. Whoever owns the company behind these devices would be rich with data (which they can sell.)

steering towards..

Talking about open source....

Here are 5 Reasons Why There Is No Secure Element in TREZOR

https://blog.trezor.io/is-banking-grade-security-good-enough-for-your-bitcoins-284065561e9b#.hgk9bbw74

You're mentioning open source.. I still remember when open source was frowned upon, now it is quite a common standard, and becoming even more common. Especially for security.

There is always room for improvement and we never know what awaits us

Yea. You know how history always has funny visions about the future? And in reality it turns out things have progressed a lot except in weirder ways than people expected. Like how we got the iphone instead of the flying car. Its sort of just as amazing if you think about it but VERY few people predicted it when people were envisioning flying cars.

That is what cryptographically secure, open source, intuitively operated and widely adopted identity management will be like. It will be so much bigger than bitcoin. Bitcoin was just devices like these first killer app. The first application that was so blindingly obvious that it was on the margin for first ever reason for creating devices like these. However, the whole rest of the entire world economy yet awaits.

If we (or someone) can manage to foster adoption of this type of product more broadly in the economy, it really could really be a next level development for the species of man.

Oh, I really don't think cheating out on the BTC world would only hurt "a little."


Work is in progress, quite diligently I must say, but no ETA  (Hackathon is coming up though!)


EDIT: Clicked Post too early.

Sounds like utopia maybe one day we will get there I'd love to use my Trezor for everything too

I was just thinking about something the other day that I can't seem to stop thinking about. Imagine a world with wide spread trezor adoption. And really this vision has nothing to do with crypto currency so to speak. At least it doesn't because it needn't and since everyone here is so cryptocurrency focused it I think it is useful, in making my point, to pretend like no such thing exists.

Imagine that each check out line at the store has a socket that ones trezor can be inserted into. It then proceeds to ask a question. Any question it likes. Example, transfer 50 USD from bank account UVW to account XYZ? Yes or no? Or would you like to transfer 0.01 ounces of gold from vault id ABC to vault id DEF. To which you can reply yes in exchange for the groceries the cacheer has just rung up for you. The cashier can then relay the digitally signed instructions to your bank to be validated. Imagine the same device can be used to securely authenticate on any website. Imagine it is used to sign a contract when you take out a loan or request that a service be provided in the future. Imagine your credit score is tied to that public key. Imagine you can request your craigslist partner to digitally authenticate before wasting your time to dive out to see him for nothing.

One device could securely manage every single identity related aspect of our lives. Which is every aspect of reputation and commerce. Its not just the money that would be saved in fraud prevention, that benefit would be in the TRILLIONS and it would only be the tip of the ice berg. More benefits still would come in the tearing down of archaic fraud prevention infrastructure. Even that is the smaller portion still. The biggest benefits would come in the form of eliminating transaction friction. The scope and scale of this benefit is beyond comprehension. All benefits combined I wouldn't be surprised to see a +10% increase in the net productivity of the human species. It would be like materializing a half dozen new Dubais and a half dozen new Hong Kongs out of the ether for the price of like $10 per human being (maybe less im not sure just how cheap trezors could be if produced at massive scale).

Can you even imagine.

Maybe I'll become wealthy enough to buy this company someday and push forward this vision. If the satoshi labs heroes ever could be compelled to sell

*edit* I'm constantly trying to explain why I'm such a ridiculous nerd for these little devices. Maybe this will go further than any of my other posts towards explaining why.

When will the new trezor be available? Any idea?

What if it hurts a little, but brings loads of BTC ?

The firmware running in Trezor is fully open-sourced, so everyone can audit the device. If we decided to implement a backdoor into the device, someone would notice it immediately (especially now, given that there is competition on the market).

Speaking from ideological point of view, it would be against our values to put a backdoor into Trezor. More importantly though, it would surely taint something that everyone in the team has worked so hard to build. The founders of SatoshiLabs are not some unknown peeps, but, I dare to say, are quite well-respected, so it would hurt them the most.

Of course, questions like these are welcome. You should not blindly trust someone!

This guy, Jochen Hoenicke, must have taken a pretty good run at trying to exploit it considering he succeeded.  That vulnerability has since been patched and now hes listed as a team member.