EU countries agree deal to cut use of gas this winter - page 5.

Z-tight

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 02, 2022, 05:52:04 AM

At this point, the EU is banking on hypothetical scenarios. They are assuming that they will be able to secure more gas supplies from non-Russian sources such as the United States and will be able to lower the gas consumption within the EU by a large amount. And there is no guarantee that things will go as planned. For example, the fire at one of the LNG facilities in the United States has reduced American LNG supplies. EU's plan to restart coal and nuclear powerplants to make up for the shortfall from gas fired power plants have also run in to obstacles.

Cutting off supply of gas from Russian sources to the EU isn't going to be easy, i am so sure the EU know it will cause scarcity and it will cost more because this is not the usual route, but i guess it is an action that has been forced upon them, and rather than continually bend to some demands, like paying Russia in Rubles for its gas, they are exploring other sources.

Truth be told there are no guarantees to what they want to do, if it will even come in a sufficient quantity, but i feel they have to try, maybe not only for the sake of the present, but for the future, if the EU does not make an effort to break out from their dependence on Russia for gas, it may create future problems for them, going by how Russia takes some of its decisions.

TopTort777

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What is the point of that deal, if people will get huge bills anyway? What those countries plan to do with unused (cut) gas ? Resell it? Europe planned to buy less gas? They want to use that saved gas next winter? Tricky gas companies - every year they show reports with huge profit. Why not take part of them and use to cover expensive gas? Or give discounts for gas users.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 02, 2022, 05:52:04 AM

~snip~

Regardless of all the problems, the EU has much greater financial power than some other parts of the world and currently manages to import large quantities of gas from various sources (mainly the US). It is true that the fire at Freeport LNG slightly reduced US capacity, but for now this does not affect gas deliveries to the EU.

The EU is in trouble and must act quickly, but the problem also arises for other countries that will no longer be able to pay a price that will compete with the one paid by the EU - and the seller will no doubt sell to the highest bidder.

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Quote from: Silberman on July 31, 2022, 09:05:04 PM

I agree that this is their only choice, however this is going to affect their citizens a lot, with a lower supply even if the demand is somehow artificially lowered the price of gas will go up since there are limits to how much they can lower their consumption, so the EU better hopes that the winter that is coming is benevolent with them otherwise they may face shortages which will put the lives of some people at risk at the regions where the cold is the harshest.

At this point, the EU is banking on hypothetical scenarios. They are assuming that they will be able to secure more gas supplies from non-Russian sources such as the United States and will be able to lower the gas consumption within the EU by a large amount. And there is no guarantee that things will go as planned. For example, the fire at one of the LNG facilities in the United States has reduced American LNG supplies. EU's plan to restart coal and nuclear powerplants to make up for the shortfall from gas fired power plants have also run in to obstacles.

mm2543363580

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Quote from: Frankolala on July 26, 2022, 03:57:21 PM

Due to the shortage of gas in EU base on reduction of gas supply from Russia, EU countries have come to agreement to voluntarily cut the reduce of gas consumption this winter by 15%.
EU countries assumed that Russia might cut the supply that pumps through the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, which runs into Germany.

Do you think this will help solve the EU gas shortage for now

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-news-live-putin-looting-steel-bound-for-uk-major-deal-to-relieve-food-crisis-to-be-signed-russian-forces-increasing-missile-use-12541713

Time is changing - do you know we live in extreme condition and we have most of the time face gas load shedding in winter and its very bad. You are shiving - you cannot cook food and you cannot warm water.
EU has placed themselves in very sorry state.

Silberman

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Quote from: Darker45 on July 26, 2022, 11:18:53 PM

What choice do they have? They've got no choice but to reduce consumption, not because that's the better option but because that's the only option. Of course, alternatives are being explored but I doubt they could be available for use right away. So there's really no other way but reduction on its use. At the very least, however, it's voluntary. Also, it's just 15% reduction. So if we could deduce something from this, it suggests that the situation is not that dire that it's a matter of survival.

I agree that this is their only choice, however this is going to affect their citizens a lot, with a lower supply even if the demand is somehow artificially lowered the price of gas will go up since there are limits to how much they can lower their consumption, so the EU better hopes that the winter that is coming is benevolent with them otherwise they may face shortages which will put the lives of some people at risk at the regions where the cold is the harshest.

Don Pedro Dinero

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In this context of implementing measures to reduce energy consumption, the president of the Spanish government has announced measures that are a bit extreme in my opinion:

Pedro Sanchez announces implementation of energy-saving measures in Spain

'<...>will include the limitation of air conditioning to temperatures of 27 degrees, and 19 degrees in the case of a heating system. It will be implemented in, among others, shops, transport, hotels, banks, or the offices of private companies throughout Spain.'

LMAO. For that, ban the use of air conditioning or heating. In most places in Spain, in a building with people, 19 degrees can be reached without having to put the heating on. And if you want to set the air conditioning at 27, I think it's better not to put it on.

Ozero

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Quote from: Darker45 on July 26, 2022, 11:18:53 PM

What choice do they have? They've got no choice but to reduce consumption, not because that's the better option but because that's the only option. Of course, alternatives are being explored but I doubt they could be available for use right away. So there's really no other way but reduction on its use. At the very least, however, it's voluntary. Also, it's just 15% reduction. So if we could deduce something from this, it suggests that the situation is not that dire that it's a matter of survival.

For European countries, reducing gas consumption is not the only or even the main source of solving this issue. Reducing gas consumption is one of the measures taken by the EU countries. Now the main thing for them is to find other sources of gas supplies, except for Russia. For them, this is a matter of principle - to avoid pressure from Russia and dependence on its energy resources in the context of Russia's military invasion of Ukraine and the imposition of sanctions on it. Now the EU countries are successfully finding other countries that will supply them with oil and gas. In addition, in these countries, even before the Russian war in Ukraine, a strategy for the transition to alternative renewable energy sources was developed. So there are several ways to solve this issue. Russia is not the only country producing oil and gas, and it is bound to be the loser in the long run.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on July 30, 2022, 05:46:39 AM

The problem is that gas production in the US hasn't increased, and therefore LNG is unable to make up for the reduction.

According to currently available news, the US is doing a good job in terms of gas delivery, and the fact that in the first 6 months of this year more was delivered than in the previous year shows that the US has serious intentions to fulfill its promises.

Quote from: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-europe-track-surpass-biden-promise-2022-07-26/

Through June of this year, the U.S exported about 57 bcm of gas as LNG with 39 bcm, or 68%, going to Europe, Refinitiv data shows. That is compared with 34 bcm, or 35%, of LNG exports shipped to Europe for all of 2021.
That means the United States has already sent more gas to Europe during the first six months of 2022 than it did in all 12 months of 2021. If exports to Europe continue at the same pace through the second half of 2022, the total increase over 2021 would be around 45 bcm.

The problem arose after the fire at Freeport LNG, which provides about 20% of the LNG capacity in the US, and that terminal will not be at full capacity until the end of the year.

However, it should be emphasized that the increased import of gas into the EU from the US causes a shortage of gas in some other markets that cannot (for now) compete with the prices that the EU pays for that gas.

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It must suck for the citizens that has to endure the winter with little to no heating while the higher-ups of their countries enjoy their aptly-heated condos or houses. I understand that continuously refusing to buy Russian petrol would help the West get what it wants but until when? Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the rest of the EU can resort to cutting trees and burning wood for their heating source for the rest of the winter, but not everyone has access to said resources so that's another problem on its own.

Quote from: fiulpro on July 30, 2022, 07:38:30 AM

Well I won't be shocked if that was true since at the end of the day while living in London in the words of Boris Johnson, people didn't need to be worried about the gas prices because they needed to use heating but they needed to wear just more clothes to keep them warm. The other EU countries have accepted it that they won't be getting much gas and the inflation is also killing the market so what I think is :

They need to find alternatives
They need to use renewable sources of energy, like using solar power to heat up the water for the house and things like that, if done on a sufficient scale I do think that most of the people would be able to gain at least some relief, the tax money can easily be used to finally have a *greener* alternative.

Russia is still willing to sell fuel to any country who needs it at a good price but taking it from there would be disastrous for the ongoing war.

Lets vouch for green energy!

{ P.S. central heating is common in Europe, i do know that most appartments now have individual heaters but at the same time the old ones do have central heating so there is nothing that you can do about it also you can always use electric heaters to reduce the bill this is what I do as a student}

They still use burning fossil fuels to produce electricity. Pretty sure they will also cut back on the use of those, too.

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They must be very proud that they reduced it by 15%, but with everything going on (mass murders of civilians and PoWs, torture, indiscriminate attacks, heavy shelling and near-total destruction of several cities and towns), it's more like an insult that serious caring about terrible things Russia is doing for that money it gets from other countries, including the EU. Just look at these [urlhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/06/1bn-for-ukraine-35bn-for-russian-energy-eu-chief-calls-out-funding-gap]terrible proportions [/url]of how much the EU is sponsoring the war via energy payments and how much it's compensating for this sponsorship in aid to Ukraine. It's not as bad as in used to be in April when the article was published, but it's still nowhere near even equal payments to Russia vs help to Ukraine, so it's not even balanced out.
Some EU countries are doing amazing things for Ukraine, but others are doing way more harm than good.

fiulpro

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Well I won't be shocked if that was true since at the end of the day while living in London in the words of Boris Johnson, people didn't need to be worried about the gas prices because they needed to use heating but they needed to wear just more clothes to keep them warm. The other EU countries have accepted it that they won't be getting much gas and the inflation is also killing the market so what I think is :

They need to find alternatives
They need to use renewable sources of energy, like using solar power to heat up the water for the house and things like that, if done on a sufficient scale I do think that most of the people would be able to gain at least some relief, the tax money can easily be used to finally have a *greener* alternative.

Russia is still willing to sell fuel to any country who needs it at a good price but taking it from there would be disastrous for the ongoing war.

Lets vouch for green energy!

{ P.S. central heating is common in Europe, i do know that most appartments now have individual heaters but at the same time the old ones do have central heating so there is nothing that you can do about it also you can always use electric heaters to reduce the bill this is what I do as a student}

Fortify

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Quote from: Lucius on July 28, 2022, 05:18:24 AM

Quote from: be.open on July 27, 2022, 09:49:21 AM

As far as I know, the practice of central heating is not very common in Europe, and each homeowner is forced to solve the issue of heating his home on his own. I hope the European Union will be able to avoid many unnecessary deaths from hypothermia this coming winter. I am Russian, but I would not approve of Putin if he allowed such a humanitarian catastrophe in Europe. No matter how aggressively European politicians behave towards Russia, ordinary Europeans do not deserve a rollback to the Middle Ages for the short-sighted decisions of their leaders.

Maybe the west of the EU is not so much oriented towards such a heating method, but the east is still oriented towards wood as a heating material. People in houses will always have more choice than those who live in apartment buildings, but I don't believe that anyone will freeze next winter because there won't be enough gas, they will simply have to lower the heating temperature by a few degrees.

Your president is not too concerned about the humanitarian issues of the people in the EU because every day pictures of the mass graves that your soldiers left behind from various parts of Ukraine arrive. In a way, it would be logical for the EU to completely distance itself from trade with Russia, although this is very difficult at the moment.

If the average Russian thinks that the EU will return to the Middle Ages because the Russians will close the valves on the gas pipelines, then they are badly mistaken. It is a difficult year in which we live, the one ahead will be even more difficult, but people will find a way to survive as always.

It looks like the EU will have no choice because of the Russian cuts, which is yet more stupidity piled on by Putin. As Russian sanctions bite and Russia falls into economic oblivion, Putin is trying to extract some sort of concessions out of Europe by cutting gas supplies to 20% of their original amount. This is yet another plan of his that is going to backfire, as it shows that Russia is not only an unstable neighbor because they invade for no reason, but they are also an unreliable trading partner because they throw their toys out the pram when things don't go their way. It does have a silver lining however, because after these cuts European countries will do all they can never to rely on Russian oil & gas in future - which are the biggest earners for the Russian economy that is stunted by the greed of their oligarchy.

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Quote from: justdimin on July 30, 2022, 03:34:56 AM

When you can sell something for 2.5k to somewhere, even the places that had nothing to do with it can't go on to take it for 1.5k for too long, it would be not profitable to do it. Don't get me wrong, it could be less, but that would require for people who are taking advantage of this situation to stop doing that and sell it for a fair price when they know they can make more money.

Are you telling me that people who could make more money should just be fair and sell it for cheaper on the price it used to be? That's not how capitalism works and they can like it or not, Russia became capitalist the moment they stopped being USSR, hence they will do whatever they can to make a dime more if they can.

In case of natural gas, it is a bit complicated. Natural gas tankers take a long time to arrive from one port to the other. And at this point, a large part of the EU LNG comes from all the way across the Atlantic. So I guess this sort of price difference can continue for some more time. Gazprom has reduced flows through Nord Stream to 20% of the nameplate capacity, in order to help the EU achieve it's goal of total dependence from Russian gas. The problem is that gas production in the US hasn't increased, and therefore LNG is unable to make up for the reduction.

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Quote from: zasad@ on July 29, 2022, 09:35:52 AM

For the development of production, Europe needs cheap resources: oil, gas, metpalls, and so on. If the cost of production rises, then it may become uncompetitive and the company will go bankrupt.
America will not supply cheap resources to Europe.This is the main problem of the economy.

Due to its choice to stand with Ukraine, the EU will have to reform itself on various levels and forget Russia as a source of cheap raw materials, although I doubt that this attitude is sustainable in the long term and that political changes in various EU members states will still move towards Russia again. From today's perspective, this may seem unattainable, but let's remember what Germany did in World War II and where it is today, or what monstrous crimes Serbia committed only 30 years ago, and today it is in accession negotiations with the EU. Political and economic interests generally prevail over history, no matter how monstrous and bloody it may be.

The US will help the EU to the extent that they can and to the extent that it is currently in their interest, and currently both share the same interests. They know what happened last time when they stood by while Hitler conquered Europe, and if Ukraine were to be defeated, there is no question that Putin would continue to expand the Russian empire further west. There are much bigger things at stake than cheap gas or oil.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on July 29, 2022, 05:37:04 AM

The issue here that it is not just Europe that is paying the price. I checked the natural gas prices at various hubs. Dutch TTF prices are going at $2,300 per thousand cubic meters, while the LNG Japan/Korea marker is also near all-time high levels (~$1,500 per thousand cubic meters). Europe may be bearing a disproportionate impact of the oil/gas price rise, but other regions are also getting affected. Here in India, the government had to remove about half of the taxes on diesel and gasoline after the ruling party lost elections in some of the provinces. And already regime change has happened in some countries such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

When you can sell something for 2.5k to somewhere, even the places that had nothing to do with it can't go on to take it for 1.5k for too long, it would be not profitable to do it. Don't get me wrong, it could be less, but that would require for people who are taking advantage of this situation to stop doing that and sell it for a fair price when they know they can make more money.

Are you telling me that people who could make more money should just be fair and sell it for cheaper on the price it used to be? That's not how capitalism works and they can like it or not, Russia became capitalist the moment they stopped being USSR, hence they will do whatever they can to make a dime more if they can.

virasisog

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Even during the winter, people still need to use gas but it will be effective if more people would cooperate seriously. I think this solution is just temporary and it will not work in the long run. It will only be a seasonal alternative but not an ultimate solution. They still need to think of other ways to solve this problem because the winter season can't end their gas shortage.

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Quote from: Lucius on July 28, 2022, 05:18:24 AM

If the average Russian thinks that the EU will return to the Middle Ages because the Russians will close the valves on the gas pipelines, then they are badly mistaken. It is a difficult year in which we live, the one ahead will be even more difficult, but people will find a way to survive as always.

For the development of production, Europe needs cheap resources: oil, gas, metpalls, and so on. If the cost of production rises, then it may become uncompetitive and the company will go bankrupt.
America will not supply cheap resources to Europe.This is the main problem of the economy.

so98nn

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For now why not, but the real question is for how long they can Kew doing this ? One way other they will have to find the source and work for future. Public wont be much happy with this decision, because its winter and that’s the season when they use most of the gas supply to heat up the houses and what not. This is getting poorly managed I guess. Companies like Reliance India and TATA are all set to refuel EU region since they are buying from Russia at alarming rate. EU will have to buy it no matter what the base source is to keep up their nations going on.

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Quote from: be.open on July 28, 2022, 06:33:24 AM

OK. There is too much propaganda in the information field on both sides and it is pretty tiring. When I read in the German press calls from high-ranking politicians to wash less often in order to save hot water and take revenge on Putin, I don't know how seriously to take it. When I read in the European press that electricity and heating bills have increased several times, I do not know how true this is and, most importantly, how critical it is for the budget of ordinary Europeans. At my house, one cubic meter of gas costs 5.64 rubles (about 9 cents), when I see that in Europe the price of gas at the hub has exceeded 2.5 dollars per cubic meter, I understand that this is very expensive, but I don’t understand how dramatic this is for Europeans, because In different countries, different levels of wealth are considered the norm.

The issue here that it is not just Europe that is paying the price. I checked the natural gas prices at various hubs. Dutch TTF prices are going at $2,300 per thousand cubic meters, while the LNG Japan/Korea marker is also near all-time high levels (~$1,500 per thousand cubic meters). Europe may be bearing a disproportionate impact of the oil/gas price rise, but other regions are also getting affected. Here in India, the government had to remove about half of the taxes on diesel and gasoline after the ruling party lost elections in some of the provinces. And already regime change has happened in some countries such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

Topic: EU countries agree deal to cut use of gas this winter - page 5. (Read 1215 times)