| Pic 1. Premium used to be positive and in the 20% region, but it has lately collapsed reaching negative numbers.
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
Was curious how they'd handle discount And now we know, no new shares, can't imagine anyone would want to pay more for primary shares just to have them locked for 6 months. "The Grayscale® Bitcoin Trust private placement is offered on a periodic basis throughout the year and is currently closed." https://grayscale.co/bitcoin-trust/
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Finally, a little bit of FUDdish article from Bloomberg about Grayscale. Yes, it’s the leader curse: you have been churning bitcoins at a mad pace for months, but as soon as you start losing a little bit of momentum, do not forget price is not thrice of what used to be three months ago, suddenly everyone is pointing at you as a laggard. I am not a übersupporter of Grayscale, but this is nonsense. Biggest Bitcoin Fund Sinks to a Discount as Traders Flee
The world’s biggest Bitcoin fund is selling off faster than the cryptocurrency itself.
The $32 billion Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (ticker GBTC) has plunged 20% this week, outpacing a 13% decline in the world’s largest cryptocurrency. GBTC’s once-massive premium to its underlying holdings has evaporated as a result, with the price of GBTC closing 0.7% below its underlying holdings on Wednesday -- the first discount since March 2017, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Also, do not forget that a negative of flat premium is positive for the general public, as they are now allowed to take a position without paying extra money. Of course insiders were penalised, but buying overpriced shares rarely leads to a positive outcome scenario. 
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Interesting, i know that they don't offer redemption, but does that imply that they can't do it themselves? If shares are trading at discount, they can't buy up their own shares, sell BTC and destroy the shares?
I am not a financial market lawyer, but I think this sequence of action (that is logically correct btw), is highly regulated in traditional financial markets. So I guess they would need at least an approval form regulators before starting buying their own shares as this would need to be done in the secondary market.
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
Found this article, maybe a little old: https://blog.bybit.com/insights/why-does-grayscale-seldom-sell-bitcoin/For the time being, the trust is not operating any redemption program. Subject to regulatory approvals and the Sponsor’s approval in its sole discretion, Grayscale Trust may reopen the redemption program in the future. Despite the said possibility, GBTC currently shows no intention of seeking regulatory approval for that.
Without a redemption program, GBTC essentially can only purchase Bitcoin but not sell it. The only scenario that GBTC sells Bitcoins is to cover trust fees and expenses. Yes, for the time being Grayscale is only a Bitcoin guzzlin' machine. Once they issued their shares, in exchange for the subscriber's bitcoin (or money), and they added BTC to their stash, there is no way for those coins out of it. As I said, the only scenario, I see this change in the future, is the launch of an ETF, with powerful selling pressure on their shares. They would then be obliged to buy back their shares to alleviate the negative premium pressure. But I repeat this is the only scenario I can imagine for them to seek approval to open a redemption program. Otherwise, it's only a deal between the share subscriber and the free market. Interesting, i know that they don't offer redemption, but does that imply that they can't do it themselves? If shares are trading at discount, they can't buy up their own shares, sell BTC and destroy the shares?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Found this article, maybe a little old: https://blog.bybit.com/insights/why-does-grayscale-seldom-sell-bitcoin/For the time being, the trust is not operating any redemption program. Subject to regulatory approvals and the Sponsor’s approval in its sole discretion, Grayscale Trust may reopen the redemption program in the future. Despite the said possibility, GBTC currently shows no intention of seeking regulatory approval for that.
Without a redemption program, GBTC essentially can only purchase Bitcoin but not sell it. The only scenario that GBTC sells Bitcoins is to cover trust fees and expenses. Yes, for the time being Grayscale is only a Bitcoin guzzlin' machine. Once they issued their shares, in exchange for the subscriber's bitcoin (or money), and they added BTC to their stash, there is no way for those coins out of it. As I said, the only scenario, I see this change in the future, is the launch of an ETF, with powerful selling pressure on their shares. They would then be obliged to buy back their shares to alleviate the negative premium pressure. But I repeat this is the only scenario I can imagine for them to seek approval to open a redemption program. Otherwise, it's only a deal between the share subscriber and the free market.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1912
The Concierge of Crypto
Found this article, maybe a little old: https://blog.bybit.com/insights/why-does-grayscale-seldom-sell-bitcoin/For the time being, the trust is not operating any redemption program. Subject to regulatory approvals and the Sponsor’s approval in its sole discretion, Grayscale Trust may reopen the redemption program in the future. Despite the said possibility, GBTC currently shows no intention of seeking regulatory approval for that.
Without a redemption program, GBTC essentially can only purchase Bitcoin but not sell it. The only scenario that GBTC sells Bitcoins is to cover trust fees and expenses.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
Speaking of fees I checked out Coinbase Custody and it states the following : Implementation fee
$0 – $10,000 depending on use-case Custody fee
50 bps annualized
Minimum balance $500,000 I have to admit I didn’t know what bps meant, so I had to seek help on Investopedia - Basis Points (BPS), and according to the table 50 bps would be 0.5%. If I calculate correctly, this would mean that Tesla will pay 0.5% to $1.5 billion - or $7.5 million per year + max $10 000 for implementation fee. Of course, assuming that they really use CC - and that I'm right with my calculation. I agree that MS and Tesla are in a better position when it comes to the way they stored their BTC, but if they asked you or me what we think about it, the answer would be unique and very clear - "not your keys, not your coins." The "not your keys, not your coins." mantra does not apply to everyone as there will always be lazy people and entities that need to rely to an old fashioned way, i.e. to have a third party, a supplier, a custodian call it the way you want that manages the keys for them. Nonetheless, at these prices, it feels great to be my own bank and that is enough.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Hello @fillippone your spreadsheet outdated. Last update 09/02/2021 Total Holding 649,993 ~ According to https://www.bybt.com/Grayscale GBTC Total Holding is 653.73K BTC Thanks for this topic. I saw it a while ago, but I did not read. Today I was wondering whether they are still buying despite the big change in price. Strange, I just checked on the spreadsheet and everything is working fine, with values aligned to bybt.com. I don’t exactly know how Google sync works across multiple files (this spreadsheet is fed via a service spreadsheet, but maybe it’s just a temporary delay in updating the values.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 4002
Hello @fillippone your spreadsheet outdated. Last update 09/02/2021 Total Holding 649,993 ~ According to https://www.bybt.com/Grayscale GBTC Total Holding is 653.73K BTC Thanks for this topic. I saw it a while ago, but I did not read. Today I was wondering whether they are still buying despite the big change in price.
Edit: It worked fine, maybe it was the bug on my part 
hero member
Activity: 2240
Merit: 848
If MicroStrategy and Tesla hold bitcoin directly, I can’t see any reason why an investment fund cannot do the same.
When you say it directly, I believe you don't think they keep their BTC in non-custodial wallets - because at least as far as MS is concerned they did all their purchases through Coinbase, and I believe Tesla did the same. If their BTC is in Coinbase Custody cold wallets, I believe that way of storing comes at a price - but it's probably less than what Grayscale charges. Exactly, they probably hold bitcoin on Coinbase Custody. I know that they bought trough Coinbase, but I didn’t remember reading anything about their storage solution. What I meant is that they own Bitcoins (even if they don’t own the private Jews of their bitcoin they legally own those coins via a legally binding contract between them and Coinbase) and not some kind of “securitised bitcoin” like a GBTC share.  ...."keys" i hope haha
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