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Topic: Finally, a correct (endgame) difficulty calculator - page 2. (Read 12437 times)

donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
I dont think you understand what Im trying to calculate here?
 IM trying to figure out the hashrate where mining costs and income are in balance (for a given BTC exchange rate and for the current block reward). Thats just a number that depends on a lot of variables, but mostly electricity cost, energy efficiency, and to some extend, investment horizon, hardware production costs. There is no timeline on when we will approach this, there is no historical data to check against.

This has already happened at least once previously, when difficulty levelled out for a year or so until the exchange rate increased. Does your calculator indicate that would have happened?

What happened in 2012 was different. We mined with GPU's and gpu pricing is not dependent on bitcoin profitability. AMD (and nVidia) price their products for gamers mostly. They didnt charge huge premiums when GPU mining was highly profitable, and when bitcoin mining stopped being profitable, it didnt cause AMD to lower its prices. ASICs pricing will behave very different since they serve no other market besides mining.

Still, lets see what we get. Lets take January 2012
BTC exchange rate ~$5

Assuming most people were doing GPU mining. Lets take a 5870 @350Mh @200W at the wall.
Lets say it costed $250.

If I plug those numbers in I get a network speed of 5000 GH. edit: I forgot block reward was double back then. So Id get 1000GH.
 In reality it was ~8000 GH.
If you take in to account FPGA mining, and given the range of possible outcomes of my current spreadsheet, thats close enough in my book.

Points taken: miners were more heterogenous then so an average miner profitability can't be easily determined. Especially since those with the largest hashrates were FPGAs. Even so your result was at least the correct order of magnitude. If that's as accurate as it gets, that's still good enough to plan for.

Another question - in your example you've used average miner electricity costs at 0.12c per kWh. Do you still think this is a reasonable estimate? I suppose you assume that miners will move rigs to the lowest cost areas - overseas if necessary?


legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
I dont think you understand what Im trying to calculate here?
 IM trying to figure out the hashrate where mining costs and income are in balance (for a given BTC exchange rate and for the current block reward). Thats just a number that depends on a lot of variables, but mostly electricity cost, energy efficiency, and to some extend, investment horizon, hardware production costs. There is no timeline on when we will approach this, there is no historical data to check against.

This has already happened at least once previously, when difficulty levelled out for a year or so until the exchange rate increased. Does your calculator indicate that would have happened?

What happened in 2012 was different. We mined with GPU's and gpu pricing is not dependent on bitcoin profitability. AMD (and nVidia) price their products for gamers mostly. They didnt charge huge premiums when GPU mining was highly profitable, and when bitcoin mining stopped being profitable, it didnt cause AMD to lower its prices. ASICs pricing will behave very different since they serve no other market besides mining.

Still, lets see what we get. Lets take January 2012
BTC exchange rate ~$5

Assuming most people were doing GPU mining. Lets take a 5870 @350Mh @200W at the wall.
Lets say it costed $250.

If I plug those numbers in I get a network speed of 5000 GH. edit: I forgot block reward was double back then. So Id get 1000GH.
 In reality it was ~800 GH.
If you take in to account FPGA mining, and given the range of possible outcomes of my current spreadsheet, thats close enough in my book.




legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Parabolic bubble for mining seems like a weaker argument but I can see something like that occurring a balance out on difficulty over time
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
I dont think you understand what Im trying to calculate here?
 IM trying to figure out the hashrate where mining costs and income are in balance (for a given BTC exchange rate and for the current block reward). Thats just a number that depends on a lot of variables, but mostly electricity cost, energy efficiency, and to some extend, investment horizon, hardware production costs. There is no timeline on when we will approach this, there is no historical data to check against.

This has already happened at least once previously, when difficulty levelled out for a year or so until the exchange rate increased. Does your calculator indicate that would have happened?
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
I dont think you understand what Im trying to calculate here?
 IM trying to figure out the hashrate where mining costs and income are in balance (for a given BTC exchange rate and for the current block reward). Thats just a number that depends on a lot of variables, but mostly electricity cost, energy efficiency, and to some extend, investment horizon, hardware production costs. There is no timeline on when we will approach this, there is no historical data to check against.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
Have you tried using your spreadsheet on historical data to see how it performed? This would give you the ability to include confidence intervals (-ish).

How do you figure this could be applied retroactively? This doesnt give you a timeline.

I was assuming you'd enter the figures that would have applied months ago. But I just noticed:

Also note the investment horizon should NOT be compared to today, when difficulty is growing explosively. This spreadsheet calculates the "end game" where difficulty remains fiarly stable, or at least is only really influenced by BTC exchange rate and perhaps mining fees. In such environment, an investment horizon of a few years is entirely reasonable.

So you can't do a historical check?
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
Have you tried using your spreadsheet on historical data to see how it performed? This would give you the ability to include confidence intervals (-ish).

How do you figure this could be applied retroactively? This doesnt give you a timeline.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
Where did you get your numbers for 36$ per 28nm ASIC Manufacturing Costs?

I'd expect that to be behind several NDAs..

The silicon cost is calculated based on the price per wafer and number of candidates per wafer.  Its not like TSMC or GF have pricelists on their website, but there is plenty of industry analysis literature out there that gives an idea. Im using $4000 per processed 300mm 28nm wafer, which is last years average price. I dont have a public source for you for that, but this may show the ballpark is at least correct:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20110912192619_TSMC_Reportedly_Hikes_Pricing_on_28nm_Wafers_Due_to_Increased_Demand.html
Note the articel is from 2011.

Prices may have come down further since 2012, and I strongly suspect bitcon asics use less layers than the average (making them cheaper), but otoh $4000 is a volume price that may be out of reach of bitcoin asic vendors today. Since this is an endgame calculator, that doesnt matter much. To get to the above numbers, bitcoin asics would have to become fairly big volume anyway.

As for the other costs, chip packaging is typically calculated per ball, with $0.003 per ball being a good rule of thumb. That works out to ~$3 per chip. The additional $4 per chip I used for testing and handling is probably way too much.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
Nice work, Puppet. Shame I didn't see this before, then I'd know why you were so anti-ARIMA forecasts Wink

Have you tried using your spreadsheet on historical data to see how it performed? This would give you the ability to include confidence intervals (-ish).

I hope you keep working on it.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
Where did you get your numbers for 36$ per 28nm ASIC Manufacturing Costs?

I'd expect that to be behind several NDAs..
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
Found a decent reference point to get an idea of the cost of the PCB:
From Mercury Research in 2011:


Now keep in mind that videocard PCBs are notoriously complex, requiring many layers and very tight timings (high clocked ram), and yet even the highest end ones dont add more than $8 to the BOM, or $15 or so if you include passive components, connectors and the like.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
Nice work Puppet Smiley


Since I am not that technically inclined using new things, can you please summarize if any of the current prospects for mining are profitable? (Will meet ROI)

Thats not what I am even trying to calculate here. Profitability of mining hardware ordered now will be dependent on how fast we move towards the endgame, which depends entirely on the ability of the various manufacturers to ramp production of these rigs, and their speed/ability/willingness to adjust prices to difficulty. I cant calculate something like that, I can only guess.

FWIW, my guess is most of these offers will not be profitable, quite possibly none of them. The only ones that may be profitable are the ones that ship early while most of the competition ships late. Considering the amount of competition out there, that doesnt seem like a wise bet to make.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Fourth richest fictional character
Nice work Puppet Smiley


Since I am not that technically inclined using new things, can you please summarize if any of the current prospects for mining are profitable? (Will meet ROI)
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
I meant power supply which doesn't scale well even in bulk mainly because of raw materials inside and heavy weight so shipping costs are higher.

Already many vendors ship them without PSU. Like KnC, bitfury,.. that doesnt mean you shouldnt include the cost, but I also think most miners have piles of unused power supplies from their gpu's, fpga's and soon to be retired asics. Standard PSUs  are also fairly easy to resell, unlike unprofitable miners so I wouldnt include the cost at 100%.

Also Im not sure how much cheaper you can go if you dont need ATX compliance. A quick check on alibaba suggests it can be done rather cheaply. For instance:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/530704893/power_supply_open_frame.html

360W with a listed price between $1 (?) and $8 depending on volume.

Sure, it all adds up, but doesnt really change things dramatically.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
I meant power supply which doesn't scale well even in bulk mainly because of raw materials inside and heavy weight so shipping costs are higher.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
I think your calculations should include ancillary pcb, power, and cooling costs as even if these items aren't sold as a package miners still have to buy them and will calculate the costs into the equation.

PCB, yeah I agree, but frankly Im not in a position to make an educated guess what those would cost in volume. If you look at bitfury blades, thats a whole lot of chips on a single large, but fairly simple PCB. What would that cost in volume? $50  ? I dont know, perhaps a lot less, but even so that would add $2.5 dollar per chip.Whatever you think is reasonable, just add it to the packaging cost.

Power is included, if you need cooling on top of that, you can easily adjust your electricity price.

packages/cases, I dont think is needed. When we mined with GPU's, no one used cases and Ive not seen a lot of demand for bitfury cases either. As long as prices are where they are now, vendors may as well include nice rackmountable cases, but as margins dwindle, we will move towards bare bone rigs on shelves again.


Quote
I expect difficulty to overshoot as manufacturers realize that for maximum profitability they must sell in preorder chunks and buyers don't truly see real total order numbers.  

I totallly agree. Moreover, its quite possible that at least some asic vendors will overproduce if they underestimate the production capacity of their competitors. Time between ordering wafers and being able to ship miners to customers is fairly long. So  they may have to sell their last inventories at a loss.

legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
I think your calculations should include ancillary pcb, power, and cooling costs as even if these items aren't sold as a package miners still have to buy them and will calculate the costs into the equation.  At some point I'm sure the extra stuff will cost more then the ASIC chips.  I expect difficulty to overshoot as manufacturers realize that for maximum profitability they must sell in preorder chunks and buyers don't truly see real total order numbers.  Also Puppet is probably correct that miners aren't looking at further then 6 months max for calculations.
sr. member
Activity: 309
Merit: 250
What part are you struggling with?

I'm struggling with the fact that I can't get a good deal on an ASIC right now.  Can you change the numbers to convince me I should buy one from someone  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
However, I would love to understand it better.
Can you pls hit me up on skype to explain it?

Why dont you just ask your questions here? Im more than willing to explain anything thats not clear, but the idea of a forum is that its public so everyone can chime in and/or benefit.

What part are you struggling with?
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
I'm surprices this thread doesn't get more attention.
However, I would love to understand it better.
Can you pls hit me up on skype to explain it?

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