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Topic: FOR NEWBIES, wallets to choose from and analysis by Veriphi - page 2. (Read 840 times)

pooya87

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 16, 2020, 12:22:25 PM

And assuming they are in a hurry and are presented with a choice of a huge number of wallets, they might not know which ones are good and which are complete crap.

it makes sense, specially the huge number of options made me thinking. studies show that when people are presented with a lot of choices they always have a much harder time making a choice compared to when they only have a handful of options to choose from.

DaveF

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 16, 2020, 12:22:25 PM

Quote from: DaveF on August 15, 2020, 07:23:48 AM

And, I know I have said the below in other threads before but I'll say it again.
Phones and PCs (Mac's too) are not secure, any wallet that is 100% reliant on them with no hardware / 2fa / multisig is also not secure.
The rest is just fluff.

All of that is important, of course, but I don't think any of these things negates the importance of wallet recommendations.

Which goes back to the post that made that I linked.

IMO a wallet recommendation, without knowing more then just "I need a BTC wallet" is difficult if not impossible to know what to recommend. The chart is good, but it's just a start.

If you are US based and all you want to do is trade BTC to USD and USD back to BTC in hopes of making a profit in a controlled regulated way then Coinbase wallet might be the way to go.

If you are talking trivial amounts (and the value will vary person to person) would an easier to use wallet be better?
Even if it's not as secure as we would like, if it's difficult for that person to use, it might actually be more secure for them. Because, a wallet that is more secure / better but more difficult to use (once again for them) might cause frustration / mistakes.

And sometimes it's just the "quality" of the wallet itself. I used to love mycelium. But because TWICE I could not connect to they server it delayed a trade / cost me a lot of time & effort to get it done I stopped using them. That comes into play also.

Also, there are other factors. Although I might not agree with them such as this about Samurai : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54578860
Different view then I or the OP have but it's still there.

-Dave

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 15, 2020, 10:35:58 PM

And I would say that a complete newbie to bitcoin probably wants to get a wallet in a hurry, since that's the first thing you need if you want to own bitcoin. And assuming they are in a hurry and are presented with a choice of a huge number of wallets, they might not know which ones are good and which are complete crap.

Yes, newbies should absolutely do their research before choosing a wallet, but the reality is that a lot probably don't. I know I wasn't very choosy when I picked my first wallet and I sure as hell didn't know about all of the important features that I do now that I have some experience.

Lists like this to help noobs are not a bad thing. There might be some disagreement about certain things, but overall I think they're helpful to someone who's just getting started.

Quote from: DaveF on August 15, 2020, 07:23:48 AM

All of that is important, of course, but I don't think any of these things negates the importance of wallet recommendations.

pooya87

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Quote from: hulla on August 15, 2020, 02:41:17 PM

A popular quote says that "Nobody is more dangerous to himself than an ignorant individual."Therefore, recommending a specific wallet to newbies is not enough to guarantee their protection when they still lack the fundamental steps to avoid human mistakes and how to put wallet secure features to work.
The question about the computer we used which are not open source have been raised before on this forum but there should be a possible solution to secure wallet in case computers are tab.
Meanwhile, auto update and download of wallet is not an advisable idea which the newbies need to be aware.

i'd argue that someone who has made the effort of looking around and does the research to find a good wallet will also research about other things including how to increase their own security while using that wallet. it is those who don't make any effort who are in the most danger.

as for computers, the drama of some parts not being open source is just about privacy not security even though they try to include security in it too.

hulla

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DaveF

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Link to a post I made back in November 2019: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/helping-usually-new-people-choose-their-wallets-5205304

Basically saying that it's nice and all to recommend certain wallets to people but without really knowing what they need to do or have the ability to do advising them to use certain ones might actually be a disservice.

And, I know I have said the below in other threads before but I'll say it again.
Phones and PCs (Mac's too) are not secure, any wallet that is 100% reliant on them with no hardware / 2fa / multisig is also not secure.
The rest is just fluff.
And if you have auto update turned on which is the default then unless you know how the updates are pushed to the Play Store or iTunes Store then you are also at risk.
Is their github account secure? How about the workstation that they use to push updates up? etc.

-Dave

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: bob123 on August 11, 2020, 08:21:58 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

Then you believe Exodus is as bad as Electrum in this list?

Depending on what we are talking about.
Regarding security, no. Exodus is a horrible wallet.

Regarding privacy, yes. They are both shit regarding privacy. Both send all addresses, transactions and balances to a server who can link all your BTC transactions to your IP and your geo location.

It's merely Veriphi's comparison between different wallets, and you have the freedom to object.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

Why not, it's minor.

There are no "accounts" in bitcoin.
This is a huge flaw in your mindset.

If this is intended for newbies, you are already teaching them a horrible behavior.

I'm confused, what? I believe Veriphi said "BTC as unit of account", not actual accounts. A unit of account is "one of the functions of money" for wallets merely to measure value.

In some wallets in the list, "Bitcoin used as Unit of Account" is a "yes".

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

It's not that very inconsistent, it did enough to guide newbies, which wallets are the open source/most secure/safest.

It is extremely inconsistent.
I just picked a few wrong things i saw. There are way more there which i did not mention.

This table shouldn't be used to guide newbies at all. IMO it is worthless.

You disagree with the recommended wallets in the list?

bob123

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

Then you believe Exodus is as bad as Electrum in this list?

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

Why not, it's minor.

There are no "accounts" in bitcoin.
This is a huge flaw in your mindset.

If this is intended for newbies, you are already teaching them a horrible behavior.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

It's not that very inconsistent, it did enough to guide newbies, which wallets are the open source/most secure/safest.

pooya87

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 11, 2020, 12:53:19 AM

Quote from: bob123 on August 10, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Wallet is API, SPV or a Node?
What the hell is an "API" wallet? Additionally, every wallet is a Node. What this should say is "full node".

No, SPV/light-wallets are not actually part of the network, and are therefore, NOT nodes. They merely connect to a node. You're nit-picking, but I will ask Veriphi to change it, and avoid further confusion.

if we want to nitpick then we should split these things into different layers. wallet layer is not categorized like this. wallet is only responsible for creating and holding private key, generating addresses from these keys and signing transactions.
how the transaction outputs are verified and are send to the wallet layer depends on another layer which defines whether it is a "full node" or not. and we also have a very strict definition there too. for example none of the old bitcoin core versions can be considered full node anymore because they no longer verify "everything" (can't see or understand witnesses).

in other words there is no difference in nature of the "wallet" layer between electrum and bitcoin core, the difference is only in details and the other layers.[/list]

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: bob123 on August 10, 2020, 08:47:55 AM

Looking at the table.. a lot seems to be wrong and/or weird.

Some things picked:

Wallet is API, SPV or a Node?
What the hell is an "API" wallet? Additionally, every wallet is a Node. What this should say is "full node".

Quote

[/li]
[li]Is the Backend Open-Source?
No one can verify whether the open-source code actually is used. So that is quite pointless IMO when talking about the reputation of a wallet/backend.

Then you believe Exodus is as bad as Electrum in this list?

Quote

[/li]
[li]Other BTC Features: Electrum "No"
Since CPFP is mentioned in other wallets, electrum does offer CPFP. Same goes for Wasabi. Also, you have added "Payjoin" to BTCPay, but no CoinJoin to Wasabi. This table is extremely inconsistent.

[/li]
[li]Fee Selection
Why does BTPay have "full" and everything just "Yes" ?

I will show Veriphi.

Quote

[/li]
[li]"Bitcoin Unit of Account"
Really?

Why not, it's minor.

Quote

[/li]
[li]Replace by Fee
Wasabi's entry is wrong. It should be "yes" instead of "no".

[/li]
[/list]

I'll show Veriphi.

Quote

My conclusion would be that the table is so inconsistent and full of wrong information that it would be easier to delete it and start again with more useful information and a proper formatting.
It really is not worth showing a newbie.

It's not that very inconsistent, it did enough to guide newbies, which wallets are the open source/most secure/safest.

bob123

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Looking at the table.. a lot seems to be wrong and/or weird.

Some things picked:

Wallet is API, SPV or a Node?
What the hell is an "API" wallet? Additionally, every wallet is a Node. What this should say is "full node".
Is the Backend Open-Source?
No one can verify whether the open-source code actually is used. So that is quite pointless IMO when talking about the reputation of a wallet/backend.
Other BTC Features: Electrum "No"
Since CPFP is mentioned in other wallets, electrum does offer CPFP. Same goes for Wasabi. Also, you have added "Payjoin" to BTCPay, but no CoinJoin to Wasabi. This table is extremely inconsistent.
Fee Selection
Why does BTPay have "full" and everything just "Yes" ?
"Bitcoin Unit of Account"
Really?
Replace by Fee
Wasabi's entry is wrong. It should be "yes" instead of "no".

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: maye5104 on August 09, 2020, 09:42:13 PM

I'm wondering why cold wallets aren't recommended. And there isn't Atomic wallet in this list.

Read the all the information posted in the spreadsheet. It's not the hardware wallet that isn't recommended.

Plus, AVOID Exodus, and all other wallets that doesn't let you control the fees. They aren't good to the network.

https://support.exodus.io/article/69-how-does-exodus-calculate-fees

maye5104

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I'm wondering why cold wallets aren't recommended. And there isn't Atomic wallet in this list.

Wind_FURY

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Bump.

I saw three topics asking the same question, about the same wallet, "Is Exodus safe for long term storage" Newbies, read the wallets suggested by Veriphi, and use the safest wallets.

Wind_FURY

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Veriphi updated their wallet analysis, and added 8 more wallets,

Bisq Wallet
Rise Wallet
HODL Wallet
Jaxx Liberty Wallet
ZenGo
BTCPay
Casa Node 2
Bitpie

With only BTCPay added to the most recommended choices.

Plus Veriphi also added more new important features that shows the,

Latest Version
Latest Release Date
Latest Github Commit
Responsible Disclosure Program
Latest Known Vulnerability
and if Patched.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aZ1zbaUEzCo9NCctN8-eL2VLIiSdY009tTJvRXDUWEw/edit?usp=sharing

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: pooya87 on December 02, 2019, 03:25:13 AM

But I agree though. Anyone who owns a service or an app that supported S2X should NOT be recommended, especially to newbies. Hahaha. Cool

malevolent

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Quote from: pooya87 on December 02, 2019, 03:25:13 AM

ps. i am curious whether hardware wallets are actually "fully" open source?

As far as software goes, Trezor One and Trezor T are fully open source. You can also build one yourself from scratch. The microcontrollers' hardware is another matter.

pooya87

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the list seems to become emotional thing rather than fact based when it comes to the black part at the end. i am talking about the S2X part! for example for Coinbase it says ""S2X, Custodial, Shitcoins"! what the hell does that even mean? Coinbase is a custodial bitcoin wallet, has nothing to do with shitcoins, it is not a good option to store bitcoins but it is an excellent option for beginners to buy bitcoin and get started with a familiar interface then move to a real wallet!

the row saying "P2SH" is misleading because P2SH is simply "pay to script hash" and it has nothing to do with SegWit but based on the Yes/No it seems like they mean a nested SegWit!

"Coin control" and "Batch spending?" rows should not even exist in custodial wallets because it doesn't make sense.

"Can the user broadcast any TX?" some of the columns also have an API that lets you push a TX like blockchain.com but it says "NO"

"Message Signing / Verification?" i believe you can sign a message from both blockchain.com and coinbase through their interface. and for blockchain.com since you already have your private keys you can do it elsewhere too.

"Shitcoin Exchange" shows yet another emotional row!

"Other BTC Features?" for bitcoin core says YES whereas it really doesn't support a lot of features. for example mnemonics (BIP39 and its family), coinjoin, lots of other BIPs.

ps. i am curious whether hardware wallets are actually "fully" open source?

for Electrum (some may have been mentioned):
Why? +user friendly and feature rich
Connects to a Backend Server? it is not a server that Electrum connects to, it is a node
both "Can you add extra entropy?" and "Can you add a passphrase?" should be YES
"Can you have many accounts?" if they mean actual accounts like on a site then it shouldn't be available for all collums only for web wallets, if they mean accounts as in different wallets then it is true for a lot of them including Electrum, bitcoin core,...
"Can the user broadcast any TX?" YES!
"Customizable UI (User Interface)" there isn't much customization option available! you can change units, show/hide some tabs to see "advanced" tabs but i wouldn't call it customization, but it is just my opinion.

all in all i think it was a good table but had some mistakes here and there. i also think it is better if they add some tool tips on each cell on first row explaining what they mean and also they should remove unrelated ones and instead of YES/NO it should place something like a dash indicating not-applicable.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 02, 2019, 01:46:49 AM

My only criticism for your review is some wallets were "not recommended" because the reason was "shitcoins"? You would do that to GreenWallet, or Electrum if you can HODL shitcoins in them?

I bet it's because of the inclusion criteria (written above the spreadsheet), which seemed like also used as the criteria for rating:

Quote from: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aZ1zbaUEzCo9NCctN8-eL2VLIiSdY009tTJvRXDUWEw/edit#gid=0

We have analyzed 48 features
for each wallet, the inclusion criteria is :

1) Mainly a Bitcoin Wallet
2) Enough Usage (Over 1000 Downloads)

That said, those that aren't specifically made for Bitcoins with minimal features/security fell to non-recommended.

Wind_FURY

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My only criticism for your review is some wallets were "not recommended" because the reason was "shitcoins"? You would do that to GreenWallet, or Electrum if you can HODL shitcoins in them?