For the bulls - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

porcupine87

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hm

Quote from: sgbett on October 06, 2014, 05:44:55 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

1. Technology will improve, chips will become more efficient, driven by the next run up and all the free money to be made Wink

2. Transaction fees
3. State gambling laws. Drugs. Prohibition. Digital "Piracy". Human desires trump law every time.

Your examples are certainly friction, but none of them are showstoppers (imho).

1. Chips becoming more efficient doesn't solve the problem. As long as Bitcoin has the risk of a 50+% attack the dollars to get 50% is the level of security. Not the hash rate. With Bitcoin rising in price mining will cost more and more. With 1000x the market cap of today it is likely that mining will consume 1000x more dollars. I think Bitcoin can only solve this with new features to complicate a 50%+ attack.

2. Sure. But this could make transactions very costly. But there are ways to reduce the relay cost of a transaction...
3. If Bitcoin gets banned, this is not good. But I don't think this will happen in the capitalist counrties...

Bobsurplus

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Activity: 1008

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Making money since I was in the womb! @emc2whale

Quote from: institutionaltrader on October 06, 2014, 04:59:08 AM

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: BitcoinNewbie15 on October 05, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that

Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

The ETF won't do anything to the underlying asset. If they are buying their BTC via exchanges, you have exactly the same risks than buying BTC directly and no one will help you if anything goes wrong.

You dont know what you're talking about. Leave now please and let the serious investors talk.

sgbett

legendary

Activity: 2576

Merit: 1087

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

1. Technology will improve, chips will become more efficient, driven by the next run up and all the free money to be made Wink

2. Transaction fees
3. State gambling laws. Drugs. Prohibition. Digital "Piracy". Human desires trump law every time.

Your examples are certainly friction, but none of them are showstoppers (imho).

testerx

hero member

Activity: 609

Merit: 500

I think in the short term they may continue to be pain, but in the long term all the things that are causing pain (i.e. merchant adoption causing merchants to dump BTC) will end up getting BTC adopted enough to a point where it's value will skyrocket. Unfortunately I think legal rules and regulations haven't really caught up to BTC and as of right now the IRS' rules have an unfortunate depressant effect on the price. But I have faith that this will be worked out as governments grapple with cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is here to stay and it *will* be worth so much more someday, it's just not clear when that day will come.

In the meantime load up on cheap coins while you can. I do think that once ETFs come into play though there will be a jump in price from larger investors moving in.

institutionaltrader

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: BitcoinNewbie15 on October 05, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that

Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

The ETF won't do anything to the underlying asset. If they are buying their BTC via exchanges, you have exactly the same risks than buying BTC directly and no one will help you if anything goes wrong.

lophie

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Activity: 924

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Unlimited Free Crypto

I did not expect this from an old member like ElectricMucus.... But here it goes:

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster

The easiest way to argue this is that we also consume electricity to operate and run other money transfer systems. It is unfair to pinpoint "an ecological disaster" to Bitcoin ignoring the multitudes of power consumption other systems do (Be fair and extend this power usage to all facilities and personnel consumption whenever they have a "role" in these systems). Bitcoin is designed to be different, not perfect. this is the real world not a Utopia.

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.

And what is the current incentive? if you want to point at block subsidy you forgot the transaction fees and bitcoin exchange rate. The transactions were being relayed when they worth nothing.

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

Old old idea. Got shattered by the FBI report and Germany public statement regarding Bitcoin. Face it Bitcoin protocol spits on the face of censorship. They will feel offended for a while before opening up to it.

Elwar

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Activity: 3598

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Viva Ut Vivas

A few million dollars a month needed for mining.

Banking industry spends billions per month just for keeping the lights on.

The remittance industry charges tens of billions per year just in fees.

As someone who has started working in a foreign country getting paid in dollars...I have seen first hand how Bitcoin is a huge advantage over wire transfer and currency conversion.

For example, my mother came out to visit me here in germany. She exchanged $1000 to 715 euros before she came out through her bank. That is not including what it would have cost to wire it over here if she was not flying.

I sold roughly 3 bitcoins for 900 euros through localbitcoins, then I bought that same amount of bitcoins on CoinBase for $1024. The conversion should have been $1000 for 750 euros (at the time).

Why would I use anything other than Bitcoin? Sell me on using Western Union.

mmortal03

legendary

Activity: 1762

Merit: 1011

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 08:05:46 PM

Quote from: mmortal03 on October 05, 2014, 07:46:27 PM

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

I'm all ears.

There was a video on this that I watched the other day. I'm trying to track it down.

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: mmortal03 on October 05, 2014, 07:46:27 PM

Quote from: Ibian on October 05, 2014, 07:10:44 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

I'm all ears.

fewcoins

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: BitcoinNewbie15 on October 05, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that

Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Another talk of the ETF lol!!! What will you guys do when this ETF that is suppose to dig this coin out of the trenches doesn't even release?!

mmortal03

legendary

Activity: 1762

Merit: 1011

Quote from: Ibian on October 05, 2014, 07:10:44 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: Ibian on October 05, 2014, 07:10:44 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

Posts like this make me happy. It's proof that there are dumbasses in every generation of adoption, not just the most recent one.

No U.

Quote from: Ibian on October 05, 2014, 07:10:44 PM

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

The mining reward is not just the block subsidy. It's also transfer fees. As traffic increases and reward halves the subsidy will play a smaller part and transfer fees a larger one. Remains to be seen how effective this will be, but that is the idea.

Government bans are bullish. It legitimizes bitcoin as a serious product, if not a threat. Has no to positive effect on the black market, which is huge - some say bigger than the legal market.

1. Even if you don't believe in climate change the ecological impact of using energy in that matter is an issue. Ignorance of these issues are wide spread amongst right wing libertarians nut I can still blame you for your ignorance of the subject. Do you deny that ecological responsibility is necessary for sustained survival?

2. You seem to lack understanding of the issue: The transfer fees are exactly the problem, they provide a counter-incentive for nodes to relay transactions.
see: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=156072

Quote

Many large decentralized systems rely on information propagation to ensure their proper function. We examine a common scenario in which only participants that are aware of the information can compete for some reward, and thus informed participants have an incentive not to propagate information to others.

3. Typical Anacap Hubris, do you really believe that yourself?

aguanyardiners

member

Activity: 75

Merit: 10

Look, you can go down or up, the fact that you say up or down and it's like you said,

IT DOESN'T MEAN you know anything.

The way falling and his alter ego talked is the the way of a hater or a well paid troll.

Ibian

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1278

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 05, 2014, 05:00:12 PM

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

Posts like this make me happy. It's proof that there are dumbasses in every generation of adoption, not just the most recent one.

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

The mining reward is not just the block subsidy. It's also transfer fees. As traffic increases and reward halves the subsidy will play a smaller part and transfer fees a larger one. Remains to be seen how effective this will be, but that is the idea.

Government bans are bullish. It legitimizes bitcoin as a serious product, if not a threat. Has no to positive effect on the black market, which is huge - some say bigger than the legal market.

Bobsurplus

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1000

Making money since I was in the womb! @emc2whale

Quote from: keystroke on October 05, 2014, 05:39:43 PM

Quote from: Hyena on October 05, 2014, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

To the moon! Lots of rockets fail the first few times. We are going to make it there and I can tell you the Earth looks beautiful from the moon -- wait for the view, we are going to enjoy it.

So when will the bitcoin rocket fail for the first time?? Grin

keystroke

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Activity: 900

Merit: 1014

advocate of a cryptographic attack on the globe

Quote from: Hyena on October 05, 2014, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

To the moon! Lots of rockets fail the first few times. We are going to make it there and I can tell you the Earth looks beautiful from the moon -- wait for the view, we are going to enjoy it.

Hyena

legendary

Activity: 2114

Merit: 1015

Quote from: Bobsurplus on October 05, 2014, 05:13:55 PM

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

Bobsurplus

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1000

Making money since I was in the womb! @emc2whale

Quote from: BitcoinNewbie15 on October 05, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that

Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.

As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.

Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

Melbustus

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1004

Quote from: BitcoinNewbie15 on October 05, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

...
Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly
...

The main rebuttal is long-term vs. short-term thinking. Let's assume the worst case: Miners dump everything every day, all assertions in Willy report are absolutely true, and merchant-selling pressure is in $millions every day. ... Ok, what does *any* of that change about bitcoin's potential market size, the trajectory of adoption, VC investment, ecosystem development, etc? Does that have any influence on the core proposition that bitcoin is a key advance in the technology of money, that the protocol works and is battle-tested, and that bitcoin has huge potential to increase the efficiency of global transactions, as well as to eat into gold's status as the go-to fiat-inflation hedge?

Now, what are the market sizes of those targets, what would 1BTC need to be worth in order to satisfy a reasonable portion of some set of those markets, and what is the probability that bitcoin will get there? Those are the questions you need to ask and quantitatively answer in order to arrive at a rational decision as to whether you think bitcoin is currently undervalued or overvalued.

tl;dr: At least for me, the bull-case is not about short-term dynamics, it's about the long-run (10yrs+). But I've never been a trader, so interpret as you see fit.

Topic: For the bulls - page 2. (Read 3632 times)