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Topic: Fractional Reserve Banking and the creation of the Debtcoin - page 3. (Read 5474 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."

Chin up!  You're not totally worthless!  You're no worse than the shmuck next to you, the one *competing for the job i'll offer one of you*.  See, there's still work to be done, but i'm going to let free enterprise decide which one of you does it, and which one starves. You workin' or walkin?
Walking, because you're not the only person hiring. Bye!

Pleasant dreams, ease of on that pipe. Cheesy
I think I know what the problem is. You're basing your assumptions on our current, shitty economy, aren't ya?

I'm basing my assumptions on worst-case degenerative scenario, 'coz if history has taught us anything, it's to expect exactly that.

edit:  Good night.  Falling asleep.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."

Chin up!  You're not totally worthless!  You're no worse than the shmuck next to you, the one *competing for the job i'll offer one of you*.  See, there's still work to be done, but i'm going to let free enterprise decide which one of you does it, and which one starves. You workin' or walkin?
Walking, because you're not the only person hiring. Bye!

Pleasant dreams, ease of on that pipe. Cheesy
I think I know what the problem is. You're basing your assumptions on our current, shitty economy, aren't ya?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."

Chin up!  You're not totally worthless!  You're no worse than the shmuck next to you, the one *competing for the job i'll offer one of you*.  See, there's still work to be done, but i'm going to let free enterprise decide which one of you does it, and which one starves. You workin' or walkin?
Walking, because you're not the only person hiring. Bye!

Pleasant dreams, ease off on that pipe. Cheesy
PS:  That guy you think is going to hire you?  Just phoned him.  He tells me there's a schmuck just like you who told him "you're not the only one hiring" and is draggin' his sorry ass over my way.  I told him about you.  We're both frickin' LULZING!!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."

Chin up!  You're not totally worthless!  You're no worse than the shmuck next to you, the one *competing for the job i'll offer one of you*.  See, there's still work to be done, but i'm going to let free enterprise decide which one of you does it, and which one starves. You workin' or walkin?
Walking, because you're not the only person hiring. Bye!
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."

Chin up!  You're not totally worthless!  You're no worse than the shmuck next to you, the one *competing for the job i'll offer one of you*.  See, there's still work to be done, but i'm going to let free enterprise decide which one of you does it, and which one starves. You workin' or walkin?

Edit:  I know you're a good guy in real life, you know what gave that away?  You said that you'd "grow a garden" instead of having to work for shit wages.  That just floored me.  You obviously have no first-hand knowledge about gardens, work, or fear.  Not even the faintest inkling that unbridled greed & power is not certain to bring about a world of Joy & Plenty for all.  You'll be ok.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
So your labor is not in demand.
Then why does the person in this post want me to work for him?

"Work for me, or your children starve."
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.
I'm sorry, the only reply which comes to mind is "WUT?" Point me to a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor, 'till then -- you're ... fabricating as you go along??  Can't we get above that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
The term laissez-faire is used a total of three times in the "gilded Age" wiki article.  Nowhere in the article is [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor stated or implied.  
Here's a slightly more fitting wiki page, curiously titled Laissez-faire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
Learn to wiki.
Tsk... I thought we were being civil? And wouldn't you say a real, historical example would make a more compelling case than a dry definition?
 

I see you respond point-by-point also, otherwise you would have read my answer below.  Have you read it?  Alrighty then.  Let's not bicker.
Though let's try to stick to responding on topic.  So here we go, back on track, all concise, to the point & offish, like this never happened.  So here we go:

Perhaps.  Though i'm not sure how that counters my point.  Again:  Show me a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor.  Otherwise, stop positing bull.

You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.
Lots of people worshipped God while amassing millions in Soviet Union, would you say that the Soviet brand of Communism is the ideal system for nurturing religious freedom & individual prosperity?
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?
 
About as much as your absurd anecdotes about self-made men in laissez-faire US, that of the golden age.  
Again with the incivility... You asked if I thought I could start from scratch, and people have. Past examples indicate future potential.

And i agree.  There will certainly be self-made millionaires in your world.  They won't be as common as 3-headed freaks, but they'll exist.  Though one is certainly a fool if one bucks the odds and banks on becoming one.  Are you banking on it? Huh Cheesy

You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.
Of course you *can*, but it just so happens that you *don't*.  My scenario, I said so.  Now what?
I live somewhere don't I? If nothing else, there's always the window garden. And the roof of my apartment building.
Yes you do live somewhere.  You're a gutter bum.  No window garden for you.  My scenario.  I said so.  Now what, gutter garden?  Maybe start a joy-through-work commune behind the dumpster?
I begin to sense some hostility. Well, I can play this game, too. If I live in the gutter, then my wife clearly has left me, taking our children with her, to live with her mother. So, no children to worry about.

Wait, how many times can you begin to sense hostility?  I'm beginning to sense retention difficulties...  Anyhow, to answer your question:  
No.  Your wife died.  Rather not say how, but you're ok -- still got those darlin' mouths to feed.
Now what?  How's Atlas doin' Huh Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
I think for these reasons it would be very difficult to set up a Fractional Reserve Bank dealing with Bitcoin deposits.

Are there any bankers reading this?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Are BTC and FRB incompatible?
Well, It would be very difficult to do fractional reserve banking without some intermediary device, like a deposit slip, or a "debtcoin". Let's say, instead of incompatible, that fractional reserve banking is always visible in a bitcoin economy.
Not only the banking, but also the results of that banking, the Debtcoins themselves. They would need to be clearly visible as a different thing, and I have to think they would be perceived as somewhat less valuable than the BTCs.  That's an assumption though, our derivative dollars are all mixed in with the "real" ones (using the term loosely) and they all seem to be worth the same because we can't tell the difference.
Well, the individual value of a "debtcoin" would vary depending on who issued it, and the trust that recipients had in that issuing body to honor that debt. If it's widely felt that likely only half of the debtcoins would be honored, then that debtcoin would probably be valued at half a bitcoin. (prices expressed in debtcoin would be roughly twice that of those in bitcoin)
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
Are BTC and FRB incompatible?
Well, It would be very difficult to do fractional reserve banking without some intermediary device, like a deposit slip, or a "debtcoin". Let's say, instead of incompatible, that fractional reserve banking is always visible in a bitcoin economy.
Not only the banking, but also the results of that banking, the Debtcoins themselves. They would need to be clearly visible as a different thing, and I have to think they would be perceived as somewhat less valuable than the BTCs.  That's an assumption though, our derivative dollars are all mixed in with the "real" ones (using the term loosely) and they all seem to be worth the same because we can't tell the difference.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Are BTC and FRB incompatible?
Well, It would be very difficult to do fractional reserve banking without some intermediary device, like a deposit slip, or a "debtcoin". Let's say, instead of incompatible, that fractional reserve banking is always visible in a bitcoin economy.
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
To Tacticat's original point:

In the years to come, if banks jump on the Bitcoin bandwagon and start offering Bitcoin deposit accounts, Bitcoin will become affected by Fractional Reserve Banking.
...
For this reason, since we can easily avoid bitcoins created by fractional reserve banking, it might be necessary to call them something different. Call them Bank-bonds, Debtcoin or whatever but now we have the chance, as a community, to make a distinction between the two and start using different terms which, in the end, will increase public awareness.

Our thinking has been muddled by considering dollar denominated bank accounts including checking (M1) and even savings (usually M2) as really being dollars, equivalent to currency physically in circulation (M0).  The classical scenario of money creation is this: (the first four points work for both USD and BTC)
  1 - Three people in the economy: you, me and an FRB bank
  2 - I deposit 20 MBTC in the bank
  3 - The bank loans you 16 MBTC, retaining a 20% reserve
  4 - Now I own 20MBTC and you own 16 and there are 36MBTC out there now
  5 - But wait!  The 21 MBTC limit has been breached!

Obviously some of that 36B ain't bitcoins, it is certainly not part of M0.  But in the US we call them all dollars, and we relate the full 36M to inflation forecasting because all 36M of them are available to bid up the prices of goods & services.

But how would we be able, in a bitcoin setting, to tell the difference?  It would only be possible if what you get in step 3 up there is not really bitcoins, and that's where the Debtcoins [or whatever] come in.  Thus an FRB bank could NEVER lend bitcoins to anyone.

There would have to be a facility for sending, receiving, storing Debtcoins in Debtcoin wallets.  And if they're not fully worth a bitcoin, why would anybody take out a loan like that?

Are BTC and FRB incompatible?

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.
I'm sorry, the only reply which comes to mind is "WUT?" Point me to a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor, 'till then -- you're ... fabricating as you go along??  Can't we get above that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
The term laissez-faire is used a total of three times in the "gilded Age" wiki article.  Nowhere in the article is [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor stated or implied.  
Here's a slightly more fitting wiki page, curiously titled Laissez-faire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
Learn to wiki.
Tsk... I thought we were being civil? And wouldn't you say a real, historical example would make a more compelling case than a dry definition?

You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.
Lots of people worshipped God while amassing millions in Soviet Union, would you say that the Soviet brand of Communism is the ideal system for nurturing religious freedom & individual prosperity?
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?
 
About as much as your absurd anecdotes about self-made men in laissez-faire US, that of the golden age.  
Again with the incivility... You asked if I thought I could start from scratch, and people have. Past examples indicate future potential.

You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.
Of course you *can*, but it just so happens that you *don't*.  My scenario, I said so.  Now what?
I live somewhere don't I? If nothing else, there's always the window garden. And the roof of my apartment building.
Yes you do live somewhere.  You're a gutter bum.  No window garden for you.  My scenario.  I said so.  Now what, gutter garden?  Maybe start a joy-through-work commune behind the dumpster?
I begin to sense some hostility. Well, I can play this game, too. If I live in the gutter, then my wife clearly has left me, taking our children with her, to live with her mother. So, no children to worry about.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.
I'm sorry, the only reply which comes to mind is "WUT?" Point me to a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor, 'till then -- you're ... fabricating as you go along??  Can't we get above that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age


The term laissez-faire is used a total of three times in the "gilded Age" wiki article.  Nowhere in the article is [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor stated or implied.  
Here's a slightly more fitting wiki page, curiously titled Laissez-faire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
Learn to wiki.

You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.
Lots of people worshipped God while amassing millions in Soviet Union, would you say that the Soviet brand of Communism is the ideal system for nurturing religious freedom & individual prosperity?
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?
 

About as much as your absurd anecdotes about self-made men in laissez-faire US, that of the golden age.  

You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.
Quote
Of course you *can*, but it just so happens that you *don't*.  My scenario, I said so.  Now what?
I live somewhere don't I? If nothing else, there's always the window garden. And the roof of my apartment building.
Yes you do live somewhere.  You're a gutter bum.  No window garden for you.  My scenario.  I said so.  Now what, gutter garden?  Maybe start a joy-through-work commune behind the dumpster?

Please, for the sake of appearances, pretend that you're not speaking to an idiot.
I'll try. You're not making it easy.

Thus far i've refrained from what the D&D set would call ad baculum arguments, taking pains to be self-abasing if there was any question of my attacking you.  
If you can't stay civil in this debate, fuck you.  Bon?
Bon. I'm quite civil, so long as you are.

Allrighty.  Was doing this a point at a time, i type slow.  A fresh start?

Edit:  If code editors didn't match brackets... FORMATTING!!!
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.
I'm sorry, the only reply which comes to mind is "WUT?" Point me to a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor, 'till then -- you're ... fabricating as you go along??  Can't we get above that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.
Lots of people worshipped God while amassing millions in Soviet Union, would you say that the Soviet brand of Communism is the ideal system for nurturing religious freedom & individual prosperity?
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.
Of course you *can*, but it just so happens that you *don't*.  My scenario, I said so.  Now what?
I live somewhere don't I? If nothing else, there's always the window garden. And the roof of my apartment building.

Please, for the sake of appearances, pretend that you're not speaking to an idiot.
I'll try. You're not making it easy.

Thus far i've refrained from what the D&D set would call ad baculum arguments, taking pains to be self-abasing if there was any question of my attacking you.  
If you can't stay civil in this debate, fuck you.  Bon?
Bon. I'm quite civil, so long as you are.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
"Work for me, or your children starve."

"Fuck you, He'll pay me more."
or
"Fuck you, I'll start my own business."
or
"Fuck you, I'll grow a garden."

You are joking.  You honestly can't imagine a scenario where there is no one to "pay you more," or for that matter, pay you at all?
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.

I'm sorry, the only reply which comes to mind is "WUT?" Point me to a commonly accepted definition of laissez-faire capitalism including the condition of [constant] demand for [all forms of] labor, 'till then -- you're ... fabricating as you go along??  Can't we get above that?
You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.

Lots of people worshipped God while amassing millions in Soviet Union, would you say that the Soviet brand of Communism is the ideal system for nurturing religious freedom & individual prosperity?
You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.

Of course you *can*, but it just so happens that you *don't*.  My scenario, I said so.  Now what?

Please, for the sake of appearances, pretend that you're not speaking to an idiot.
I'll try. You're not making it easy.

Thus far i've refrained from what the D&D set would call ad baculum arguments, taking pains to be self-abasing if there was any question of my attacking you.  
If you can't stay civil in this debate, fuck you.  Bon?
Edit:  Formatting.  Gotta learn to bracket.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
"Work for me, or your children starve."

"Fuck you, He'll pay me more."
or
"Fuck you, I'll start my own business."
or
"Fuck you, I'll grow a garden."

You are joking.  You honestly can't imagine a scenario where there is no one to "pay you more," or for that matter, pay you at all?
You did say capitalism, yes? Specifically, laissez-faire capitalism. In such a system, there is always demand for labor, both skilled and unskilled.
You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
Lots of people have. Especially in the US, where laissez-faire was the rule.
You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?
My own, of course. You did say this was laissez-faire capitalism, did you not? That means I can own land.
Please, for the sake of appearances, pretend that you're not speaking to an idiot.
I'll try. You're not making it easy.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
FRB will not work on bitcoin. Due to the limited supply, the value of bitcoin will continuously rise ...

Really?  You should check out COD (coin of the day) on the alt forum.  COD's supply is limited too, and it's cheaper than BTC.  You should invest -- the only way's up!!
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
"Work for me, or your children starve."

"Fuck you, He'll pay me more."
or
"Fuck you, I'll start my own business."
or
"Fuck you, I'll grow a garden."

You are joking.  You honestly can't imagine a scenario where there is no one to "pay you more," or for that matter, pay you at all?
You feel you can start your own business from nothing, from dirt?
You'll grow a garden on whose land, exactly?

Please, for the sake of appearances, pretend that you're not speaking to an idiot.  What you've just written couldn't possibly fly in your neck of the woods ... or does it?

Again, if i sound incredulous, it's not affected.  I honestly doubt you expected me to fall for such a farcical ruse, so what are you plannin' here?  

Edit:  Have you ever grown a garden?  I know, i love fresh cukes & onion chives too, and there's more 'maters than you can shake a stick at when they get ripe in the fall.  Very sweat-of-ye-brow-sy.  Now, ever tried to feed yourself on that alone?  Are you frickin' kidding me?!
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
FRB will not work on bitcoin. Due to the limited supply, the value of bitcoin will continuously rise, no one dare to borrow bitcoin to do business, most of businesses can not generate a return which is higher than the price appreciation of bitcoin. If they really want to borrow, they will borrow inflative fiat money at first place

Just look at those guys who provided bitcoin lending business before in the marketplace board, see how that ended up
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