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Topic: Fractional Reserve Banking and the creation of the Debtcoin - page 4. (Read 5493 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
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predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
"Work for me, or your children starve."

"Fuck you, He'll pay me more."
or
"Fuck you, I'll start my own business."
or
"Fuck you, I'll grow a garden."
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
"Work for me, or your children starve."
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
predatory laissez-faire capitalism.
"predatory laissez-faire capitalism?"

One of those words doesn't belong. Pick any one. But the three of them together, it makes no sense.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Quick note for now, regarding the bolded text ("The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold") -- You're not suggesting this unique to Icelandic Commonwealth, are you?
Not at all, for it's quite similar to how ownership of a company is transferred now.
I was giving it a strict reading, something like "historically, fiefdoms could be inherited, won or bought."  Did you intend to model social constructs on business models or vice versa?
Quote
Oh, and to bring this vaguely back on-topic:
Quote
In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcement, courts, and all other security services would be provided by privately funded competitors rather than through taxation, and money would be privately and competitively provided in an open market.
Yes, it would be silly to disagree -- the further back in history we go, the more of exactly what you've just described we see, both elegant & hideous examples.  Anarcho-capitalism could mean so many things -- from free-market utopia to the ugliest examples of predatory laissez-faire capitalism. Smiley
newbie
Activity: 42
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Here we go, this will do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

Quote
Early Irish law is, like the Old Irish language, remarkably standard across an Island with no central authority.

Quote
On account of the structure of early Irish society, all law was essentially civil and offenders had to answer only to the victim or the victim's representative. This is important to point out, as in case of serious injury it is in stark contrast to most modern legal systems.

Notice any similarities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
Quote
In Rothbardian anarcho-capitalism, there would first be the implementation of a mutually agreed-upon libertarian "legal code which would be generally accepted, and which the courts would pledge themselves to follow." This legal code would recognize sovereignty of the individual and the principle of non-aggression.

I think i'm getting the gist of what you're saying, in which case i think we're pretty much in agreement.  I assumed you meant something far more extreme, as in "a state bound purely through the workings of the free market system," but i see now that's not the case.  Many similar "market states," as you define them, have existed.  I assumed you were speaking of more recent examples, frankly -- let's say post-industrial revolution.  I'm not sure if i could see a similar "market states" succeeding today, though, for any appreciable length of time, before failing through some internal, or (much more likely) external causes.  
But that's a different argument.  Fun reads BTW, thanks.  Not a History buff, but fun reads nonetheless.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Quick note for now, regarding the bolded text ("The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold") -- You're not suggesting this unique to Icelandic Commonwealth, are you?
Not at all, for it's quite similar to how ownership of a company is transferred now.

Oh, and to bring this vaguely back on-topic:
Quote
In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcement, courts, and all other security services would be provided by privately funded competitors rather than through taxation, and money would be privately and competitively provided in an open market.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Here we go, this will do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

Quote
Early Irish law is, like the Old Irish language, remarkably standard across an Island with no central authority.

Quote
On account of the structure of early Irish society, all law was essentially civil and offenders had to answer only to the victim or the victim's representative. This is important to point out, as in case of serious injury it is in stark contrast to most modern legal systems.

Notice any similarities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
Quote
In Rothbardian anarcho-capitalism, there would first be the implementation of a mutually agreed-upon libertarian "legal code which would be generally accepted, and which the courts would pledge themselves to follow." This legal code would recognize sovereignty of the individual and the principle of non-aggression.


newbie
Activity: 42
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I explained the term right after I used it:
One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

Quote
The most powerful and elite leaders in Iceland were the chieftains (sing. goði, pl. goðar). The goðar were not elected to their positions, but rather owned their title. The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold. The office of the goði was called the goðorð. The goðorð was not delimited by strict geographical boundaries. Thus a free man could choose to support any of the goðar of his district. The supporters of the goðar were called Þingmenn ("assembly people"). In exchange for the goði protecting his interests, the Þingmann would provide armed support to his goði during feuds or conflicts. The Þingmenn were also required to attend regional and national assemblies.

As to Ireland, that video was the best reference I had. Let me see if I can find one.

Re-reading right now (had to run out & deal with some IRL things -- back now)
Quick note for now, regarding the bolded text ("The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold") -- You're not suggesting this unique to Icelandic Commonwealth, are you?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I explained the term right after I used it:
One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

Quote
The most powerful and elite leaders in Iceland were the chieftains (sing. goði, pl. goðar). The goðar were not elected to their positions, but rather owned their title. The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold. The office of the goði was called the goðorð. The goðorð was not delimited by strict geographical boundaries. Thus a free man could choose to support any of the goðar of his district. The supporters of the goðar were called Þingmenn ("assembly people"). In exchange for the goði protecting his interests, the Þingmann would provide armed support to his goði during feuds or conflicts. The Þingmenn were also required to attend regional and national assemblies.

As to Ireland, that video was the best reference I had. Let me see if I can find one.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?

No, I am not. You said that they had never existed, and I countered with two historical examples, which, for the record, both lasted longer than the current US slide into oblivion. (Iceland ~330 years, Ireland ~1000)

I'm still not sure what you're saying.  Could you tell me when?

Google. It's your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_commonwealth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZZi45Mf6jYY

Oh, and by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer

Though Google's pretty good as webfriends go, i'm still in the dark (skimmed through both wiki pages, haven't watched the video, though ... don't want to watch vids right now, perhaps an alternate source?)
Maybe i'm not looking for the right thing?  As i mentioned in an edit above, are you using "market state" in a highly specialized sense, as in technical jargon i'm not familiar with?  Please understand that i'm not being *intentionally* dense -- seriously don't get what you're saying.
EDIT:  Even tried the video link -- it's broken Sad
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?

No, I am not. You said that they had never existed, and I countered with two historical examples, which, for the record, both lasted longer than the current US slide into oblivion. (Iceland ~330 years, Ireland ~1000)

I'm still not sure what you're saying.  Could you tell me when?

Google. It's your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_commonwealth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZZi45Mf6jYY

Oh, and by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer

Doing just what you've suggested.  Give me a few mins (or more)
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?

No, I am not. You said that they had never existed, and I countered with two historical examples, which, for the record, both lasted longer than the current US slide into oblivion. (Iceland ~330 years, Ireland ~1000)

I'm still not sure what you're saying.  Could you tell me when?

Google. It's your friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_commonwealth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZZi45Mf6jYY

Oh, and by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?

No, I am not. You said that they had never existed, and I countered with two historical examples, which, for the record, both lasted longer than the current US slide into oblivion. (Iceland ~330 years, Ireland ~1000)

I'm still not sure what you're saying.  Could you tell me when?
Edit:  Perhaps i'm assuming too much & you are using "Market State" as a specific econo-political term & not in the general sense?  As used by Phillip Bobbitt??  Just point me in the right direction.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?

No, I am not. You said that they had never existed, and I countered with two historical examples, which, for the record, both lasted longer than the current US slide into oblivion. (Iceland ~330 years, Ireland ~1000)
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Now, can you imagine a "Market State?" One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

Meh, i want to. I'm totally down with that action, but the word croneyism keeps popping up in my mind, or "cloak and dagger", or the mutual scratchings of backs. And "eliminating the competition", and "human nature".
Interestingly, human nature actually works in our favor, with the market. Ask Adam Smith and John Nash.

I can also imagine a Christian utopia (random pick, not starting a religious debate), the problem's the same as with your "Market State" -- one never existed, too many snags...  And as far as payoff goes, you know which one i'd choose. Cheesy
That's where you're wrong. The market has provided security before. Ireland. Iceland.

I'm not sure i see your point.  Are you saying Ireland and Iceland are currently what you would call a "Market State"?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Now, can you imagine a "Market State?" One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

Meh, i want to. I'm totally down with that action, but the word croneyism keeps popping up in my mind, or "cloak and dagger", or the mutual scratchings of backs. And "eliminating the competition", and "human nature".
Interestingly, human nature actually works in our favor, with the market. Ask Adam Smith and John Nash.

I can also imagine a Christian utopia (random pick, not starting a religious debate), the problem's the same as with your "Market State" -- one never existed, too many snags...  And as far as payoff goes, you know which one i'd choose. Cheesy
That's where you're wrong. The market has provided security before. Ireland. Iceland.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
And just in case you won't believe Hoppe, here's a mainstream historian:

Quote from: Christopher Pierson
The State is not an eternal and unchanging element in human affairs. For most of its history, humanity got by (whether more happily or not) without a State. For all its universality in our times, the State is a contingent (and comparatively recent) historical development. Its predominance may also prove to be quite transitory. Once we have recognized that there were societies before the State, we may also want to consider the possibility that there could be societies after the State.
The Modern State, Routledge, second edition 2004, page 27

Man, I want to believe him, hopefully he is correct.

However, if state is defined as simply the people who can successfully keep internal fighting and feuding down at an acceptable level, i could go for that. "State" concurrently being a synonym for "equilibrium" isn't a coincidence.
Now, can you imagine a "Market State?" One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

I can also imagine a Christian utopia (random pick, not starting a religious debate), the problem's the same as with your "Market State" -- one never existed, too many snags...  And as far as payoff goes, you know which one i'd choose. Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Now, can you imagine a "Market State?" One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?

Meh, i want to. I'm totally down with that action, but the word croneyism keeps popping up in my mind, or "cloak and dagger", or the mutual scratchings of backs. And "eliminating the competition", and "human nature".

We could do orders of magnitude better than now though, im not trying to pee on everything. Tools would help, like the decentralized crypto reserve note issuing tool i keep harping on about...
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
And just in case you won't believe Hoppe, here's a mainstream historian:

Quote from: Christopher Pierson
The State is not an eternal and unchanging element in human affairs. For most of its history, humanity got by (whether more happily or not) without a State. For all its universality in our times, the State is a contingent (and comparatively recent) historical development. Its predominance may also prove to be quite transitory. Once we have recognized that there were societies before the State, we may also want to consider the possibility that there could be societies after the State.
The Modern State, Routledge, second edition 2004, page 27

Man, I want to believe him, hopefully he is correct.

However, if state is defined as simply the people who can successfully keep internal fighting and feuding down at an acceptable level, i could go for that. "State" concurrently being a synonym for "equilibrium" isn't a coincidence.
Now, can you imagine a "Market State?" One where the service of keeping internal fighting to a minimum is provided by competing businesses, instead of a violent monopoly?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
And just in case you won't believe Hoppe, here's a mainstream historian:

Quote from: Christopher Pierson
The State is not an eternal and unchanging element in human affairs. For most of its history, humanity got by (whether more happily or not) without a State. For all its universality in our times, the State is a contingent (and comparatively recent) historical development. Its predominance may also prove to be quite transitory. Once we have recognized that there were societies before the State, we may also want to consider the possibility that there could be societies after the State.
The Modern State, Routledge, second edition 2004, page 27

Man, I want to believe him, hopefully he is correct.

However, if state is defined as simply the people who can successfully keep internal fighting and feuding down at an acceptable level, i could go for that. "State" concurrently being a synonym for "equilibrium" isn't a coincidence.
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