Topic: Friend borrowed 4 digits money from me, saying wait until BTC rises (Read 266 times)

Since you know about crypto already why don't you take the risk yourself? Friends can't always be trusted most times they've backstabbed me when it comes to money, also do not lend out money you aren't ready to lose if the money is too much for your friend to pay back there might be some form of betrayal

I can't answer your question and provide an absolute answer for it but I can just speculate on to the existence of the funds you let him borrowed.

First things first, profiting in day trading is relatively difficult. As for newbies, there has been study published that around 97% of newbie day traders lose their money in the process and the remaining 3% earn as much as a bank teller. Though I am giving the benefit of the doubt to your friend (assuming that he is an expert on this field), then he probably made some profit out of the funds you provided.

Another thing, if your friend tells you that he's waiting 'until the price of BTC rises' can have multiple interpretations. The best course of action to do here is to ask for actual receipts and pictures of your fund.

Your friend can be telling you the truth if he says he is waiting, I think if your friend is knowledgeable about crypto-currency he won't even borrow money from you to out into crypto-currency, either trading it or leaving it to rise, they are both risky, and except he has seek and gotten your consent to use your money for crypto-currency, if not your friend is wrong, and his lucky because bitcoin is rising, although I don't administer that using borrowed money to invest as an advice.

From all the posts everyone is in agreement, the OP lost control of his funds after handing
it over to his friend.

I can imagine there were great plans for the funds and probably very few specifics like:

Timeframe: when and how the loan is paid back
Profit: how is it divided
Visibility: so that you both could track the funds
Liquidation: what happens if the friend gets liquidated
Binding: how to make the loan visible or traceable in the event of difficulties.

It was a nice idea, somebody with funds in partnership with another who has no funds but can trade (hopefully)

Such people just reckon that no one will do anything against them, but often when faced with a serious threat they completely change the story. In case the OP does not manage to get his money, he has the option to report the fraud to the police or to forget about the money and his friend. As I’ve already written, maybe he’s not the only one who lent money to his friend - and that could significantly change the situation if the matter ends up in police or court.

From what I understand of OP's  post is that OP and his friend had agreement, a non-written contract for that matter to venture into a joint business of crypto trading. They both share the profit and loss after a period of time. Money exchanged hands, OP being the less educated one about crypto and probably the more financially buoyant brought the capital and the other party was supposed to use his trading prowess to double OP's capital. Please note that OP doesn't have access to the trading account nor monitors it. OP didn't concern himself with an overview of weekly or monthly profit and loss from trades.
Now he comes to you to tell you he can't give ROI, its up to you to see this picture for what it really is. If possible sell, cut your losses and make do with what you have instead of letting him continue "trading". OP, I suggest you learn from your mistake, an important lesson here is how human greed works. You don't want to bear the loss of the business only profits. Everyone thinks they are more intelligent than the next person. That never ends well

Just ask him to show the address where he hold Bitcoon if you have agreed to hold and sell at good price. You will see every coin movement there and have proofs if he has moved funds and did daily trading.
If he hold Bitcoin on exchange, screenshots of balance and trading/deposit/withdrawal history would be enough.

Probably the exact date when the purchase in BTC was made would prove to be the most important thing.
The vague term of 6 months could mean he has bought at either below current prices or above 55k, it's a matter of a week or so, and if he has bought over the current price, and given the fact that this discussion between friends has probably also started a bit in the past before the user has decided to share his story, so probably when we were under 40k it makes me think that the so-called friened is currently at a loss even with his trading and it's hoping for a bull run to come even, especially since he has invested a bit off the money in a laptop.

As for hiding the profits, unfortunately, there are so many ways his friends would be able to cheat him out of those, there is no way to be able to track everything he has done if he has used multiple websites and wallets and a lot of pairs tracking only the movements, not the profits made at the end of the story would be an impossible task.

But, my hunch is on zero profits as we speak.

Anyhow, assuming he has extra money and he is hiding from him, what would OP do about it? Go to court over a verbal agreement?

First of all before you lend 4 digit money to your friend, did you both come up with a written agreement on something with both you and your friend’s signatures?

With all due respect, it is a no-no to lend money to those people (even close friends) for the purpose of trading cryptocurrencies. It is because cryptocurrencies are volatile and unpredictable, and it may go up or down in value without warning.

What you’ve been doing is high risk on your part. You might get lucky if BTC shoots up again and if your friend is fulfilling his promise to you. I had a bad feeling about this in my opinion.

Thanks to you, your friend can now afford another laptop  ;D

No seriously, there's no way to check his activity unless you're monitoring him closely.
All you can do is to get an assurance that he has the amount of bitcoins close to the borrowed money's BTC value at the date when it was borrowed.
Ask for proof that it's in his wallet/exchange ready to be sold in December (Note: BTC doesn't always bull in December).

For "non-custodial wallet": you can ask for a "signed message" with the address that hodl the fund. Then take note of the address so you can always check if he spent it using a "watch-only wallet" or a blockexplorer.
For exchange or custodial wallets: visit him so you can check if he has it and ask him to move it to a non-custodial wallet so you can always monitor the funds as said above.

Resources:

• Non-custodial wallets: [General] Bitcoin Wallets - Which, what, why?
• Watch-only wallet: creating-a-watch-only-wallet - just the description
• Signed message: How to sign a message?!

If you haven't figured it out yet, sooner or later you'll realize that it's not really your friend, but just someone who has used your kindness or naivety to get money easily. You are probably not the only one from whom he borrowed money, if you have any mutual friends, discreetly ask them if they also lent him money.

Strictly speaking, if he borrowed money from you 6 months ago (so let's say in March), then the price of BTC was identical to today's at the beginning of the month, but at the end of the month, it approached almost $60 000. It is possible that your friend has not made any profit, or that as an inexperienced crypto trader he has lost most of what he borrowed from you.


You can't be sure what he's doing, but if you want your money back you just have to ask him - and if he doesn't want to return your money, you can always tell him you'll report it to the police - it's not $100 that you can just forget.

Actually, you won't be able to know what your friend is doing unless he updated you on what's going on. I agree with tranthidung about your friend's words either he lied or not. Before you let your friend borrow money, you have to make an agreement that your friend have to pay the money plus interest. I'm sure your friend will pay if ever he made profits from day trading. You can also take his words about splitting profits but if you don't have an agreement and the money he had if ever he store btc then the value won't be the same as the amount of money he borrowed from you.

Are you "supposed to split the profits" or have a clear agreement on the distribution of potential profits? there is a difference and that can make a problem.
if he hasn't promised you anything firmly in terms of earnings sharing, then you don't have to expect much. surely he has earned something so far and if he had the will, he had to give you at least some profit payout.
and if you have a profit-sharing agreement, who takes the risk if things go wrong?

I definitely have to ask you, how did you come up with to lend someone money, expect some potential profit from there, and in fact, you know nothing about that matter and are completely ignorant of how everything works?

It could be either of what you suspect him. But if you were already aware of the reason that he's asking for money, you shouldn't gave him that because it's really risky to borrow or lend money if the reason is about trading or investing in bitcoin.
Well, there is no option for you if you cannot force him to give what you're asking and wait until the price of bitcoin goes up and split the profits for both of you. Well, if he's asking for another fund then you would expect that he's at lost already.

With that a lot of money from you, I guess he makes a lot of money from trading, especially if he can have good skills in daily trading.
This year can give someone a big profit as the market moves good and many good projects give ​people a big profit by trading or investment.
If he said he wants to wait for bitcoin to reach all the high prices, I doubt he will know for sure because we do not know how high the bitcoin price will be later.
He uses your money to give him a chance to make a lot of money and save for him but he does not tell you the truth.
I think you can ask for him to give you the money and maybe you can have a reason that you really need that money for your urgent thing.
A true friend will care for his friend and will understand and he will give that money back to you.
Otherwise, he is not a true friend and next time, you should not lend him the money.

If you are willing to borrow or give money to someone else than you should be prepared to never see that money again in future, it can happen for many reasons like death, theft or by losing a friend.
Something similar happened to me with one ex crypto friend, you can read more about it in My Trust Story topic, and it happened before with fiat money and other people, so I guess I learned my lesson.
Now I consider giving money to someone a charity, and if they give it back to me it's like a gift.  

Asking random people in forum to tell you what we think is not going to help you because we are all a bunch of weirdos here, but you can ask your friend for his Bitcoin public address, or even better ask him to send you that Bitcoin instead of fiat money.
Tracking his address you would be able to see if he used some exchange for trading with BTC or he is holding it in his own wallet.

I've lost in the past quite some money and "friends" by borrowing them money. I've learned on the hard way that this is a no-go.

I'd advise you no longer borrow money to friends. Getting loans back can be a dirty business, especially when sentiments are involved.
And my advise stands even if you get your money back and interest. Both investing and trading are risky and it seems that the only one bearing the risks is you.



This is something only he knows.

If people only need multiple screen, they would buy additional monitor which is cheaper than a laptop. So it's likely he bought it for another reason (for example, laptop dedicated to store Bitcoin wallet and other valuable data).


Without additional information, we only can say "we don't know" or make baseless speculation. If you want to find out the truth, force him to show proof from how the money is moved, where/when he bought Bitcoin and how he store the Bitcoin.

You could simply ask him to show you the Bitcoin purchase TXs, and visualize the current balance as well as whether there are output TXs and so forth. I suspect though that you currently don’t really understand all this, and have to take his word for it. You could nevertheless get acquainted with this all to develop a minimal understanding, and ask to see what I commented at a later stage.

A lot will have to do with the deal you made with your friend. If you lent him money to invest on your behalf, then you should have set some conditions (i.e. supervision, timeframes). Price could go up or down by December, so you really need to be prepared to any of these scenarios. If by any chance he is performing day trading, the same could happen, and it’s frequent for people to end-up losing in the event, not winning.

Nevertheless, you could write down the price of bitcoin when he roughly made the initial purchase, do the same at selling time, and calculate yourself the resulting approximate benefit or loss. Any figure that he presents that deviates substantially from this calculus is sus …

That's not something we would know.
What I can tell you is that you should have came to an agreement at the beginning and stuck to it. If it is to "split the profit" then you should have clarified how you are going to determine the profit. Is it just the profit on bitcoin sale based on "price at the time of sell - price at the time you lent the money", then you have no case in complaining what he is doing with the money! But then why wouldn't you just buy bitcoin yourself?!!

Otherwise if the initial agreement was on ANY profit made with that money then you should have thought about a way to monitor what he is doing, a partnership for example where you are fully involved in all the actions instead of just sitting back and waiting for him to get back to you at some point in the future.

It is not too late to "fix" the agreement either. If he claims he has bitcoin and doesn't do anything with it then ask him to show you the address holding those coins and sign a message from it. That way you can see the coins and whether they move or not and you are sure he actually owns those coins and didn't just show you a random address.

That sounds like a newbie to me who is going to lose a lot of money when the shitcoins these "pump groups" he is watching tell him to buy and bag hold start dumping on him.

We can talk for as long as we want and speculate all we want but they're all futile. How would anybody here know what's actually happening to your friend and your money?

I guess it is about time that you frankly inquire from your friend. Confront him/her about the state of your funds. Ask him/her how things are going and what exactly did he/she do with the money. And then ask for some proofs.

By the way, have you agreed on specific terms and conditions of the loan? Was there an agreed timeframe for the payment? Would the payment be made on a one-time basis?

For heaven's sake, both of you should be maintaining a very open correspondence on the developments. All of us here are clueless. This involves a relatively big amount so your friend, and I hope he/she really is your friend, should understand if you are raising questions and requests for updates every now and then.

First of all, you took the risk of lending him your money. If you know him, you should've taken care of how much you will lend him without any risk for yourself and how much it can affect your lifestyle. ^{Hopefully, this doesn't affect you much}

If he ever traded on the account, you should've been updated on the progress because you are the one who funded the operation that he has. I think you should be the one handling the trading account to make sure he cannot just use your funds with that. It's going to be hard to validate if you don't hold or control the account used. In this way, you can verify all the trades there and see if they are used correctly. He cannot hide anything from you with that.

I think you should ask him for verification of the balance. Depending on where he is holding it, you should still be updated on it. I hope you find a way to be okay with it. Sometimes, money is what destroys friendships.

Believe it or not, it depends on you. It can be honest words from your friend but also can be a lie. I don't know and perhaps you don't. Only your friend knows what he is doing.

Having multiple screens don't help to increase your effectiveness from trading. Increase the frequency of trading does not help to increase profit. Key point is if you are bad trader, all of such can not help.

Additionally, day trading is very risky and if a bad trader practices day trading, all capital will be lost.

Borrowed right? The profits will be shared equally with the context that he will do the trading or anything to make it grow. 6 months is really long, Im afraid he is hiding something from you, like the money is already down or gone. Im afraid a day trader would not go to that extent or long period to update you regarding his activity since he is doing a day trading from the word itself does have pogress daily. I dont think as well its good idea to lend someone fund and do the trading for you. Im not sure if you are just helpful to your friend or making business with this kind of method.

It is hard to tell just by reading your topic, what your friend might be doing with the borrowed money?

If he is doing day trading then he might be a pro to make a profit in this volatile market. At the moment we are in a bear market and it is very hard to tell when the bull market will return. I am not sure why did he commit to you the Bitcoin price would pump by December this year. No one has been able to predict when Bitcoin will pump. I would recommend you to wait till December and then question him if he is unable to deliver what he promised.

I will tell him to give me an exact number to what he will be going to give to me in X months, I think that's all I can do, but what I really wanted to know but I don't know how to explain it, was: he is making money during this period right? because otherwise why asking me the money 10-12 month before his presumed bubble? other than day trading with my money

I would not know the steps to make a _personal_ exchange generated report (not the one that you give to the government as it is not ready to give to the government yet since the year is not finished, I'm not expert in this obviously, as you all can see) it would be interesting to have a report tho

Could you make yourself seem interested in what he's doing? Ask if you can get a read only api key or an exchange generated report to see how well he's doing since you leant the money to him.

You might just have to wait though, I hope he's not into gambling as december sounds a bit arbitrary for selling the funds...

We don't know what he is really doing with your money. But do you have some kind of agreement when to return your money? So whatever is his business in his crypto trading, as long as he is paying on whatever arrangement you have, that's fine. But if the arrangement is not clear, then, better start making clear it with him. Before you will receive bad news that he lost all your money to his trading and he doesn't know when to pay up.

Hello, my friend borrowed from me 4 digits money (more than half 5 digits) since 6 month already , and we're supposed to split the profits and he's saying he's waiting for the bitcoin to be at high value to sell what he bought. I said to him, aren't you supposed to make money with what I gave you by doing day trading stuff, he said no because his excuse is: He's sticking to the BTC currency and if he sell some while it's higher he will have to buy it again (not really sure of his excuses, anyway it doesn't seems to be real)

I suspect that he is doing day trading (he said to me that he reads hundreds of webpages and watches videos on crypto so..) and he bought a second laptop to have multiple screens, just for crypto. I suspect that he's doing money with my money and invented a story about selling BTC on December when the BTC will rises "before going stable for 3 years" so he said, then he would give me some kind of earnings that we would split.

My question would be: does he obviously hiding a lot of earnings from me in day trading, that he would do from Mars to December? Or is he legit to say he is just waiting all this time the good time to sell BTC when it will be a good time(with a new laptop just for crypto that he bought, not a expensive one, but anyway)