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Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 25. (Read 46265 times)

full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
And while committing logical fallacies and being a jackass, you claim the higher ground.  Nice.

I hate to break it to you, but you are acting like the garbage that you proclaim to abhor.

You're responding to a misinformation agent, a normal person simply doesn't think or respond like that, not with this kind of pattern. If you look beyond the bs he's spewing, you can see his pain, he is obviously someone who is forced to support something he doesn't even believe in, he has no passion, his reply is robotic and he is tired, but he can't stop because it is part of his job and his boss is watching, can you imagine how boring and stressful it is to have to think and respond like a broken robot all the time.


After reading his comments I realized how pointless arguing with him is.  While I think it is far more likely that he is just not intelligent enough to see the flaws in his own posting, I will say his grandiosity and bad behavior is so bad it makes me embarrassed to think that I still support/agree with many of the same things as him.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
I think that this whole argument is inorganically precipitated. It has to be a form of manipulated chaos designed to set the course of the project into an unforeseen direction guided by only a few insiders. Does it feel that way to anybody else?

Don't take so many drugs son. It's not good for rationality.

There is no collusion. I am genuinely interested in the topics I want to discuss because the outcome of those discussions impact my work and my decisions.

Folks like @dinofelis, @traincarswreck, and myself are just thinking at a very high abstract (and detailed) level, so it may be making your head spin.
sr. member
Activity: 368
Merit: 266
get a room you two
^^^This is a troll post.
^^^ Reiteration (sorry couldn't help it) manaja twa?

I think that this whole argument is inorganically precipitated. It has to be a form of manipulated chaos designed to set the course of the project into an unforeseen direction guided by only a few insiders. Does it feel that way to anybody else?



 
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
Bitcoin was obviously created by academics,

Not academics who bloviate theories without any empirical results in the real world.

Again what I stated about the 1800s is direct evidence that Hayek was incorrect.

bla bla

You still haven't read my logic and refuted my logic. So are we going to have interesting discussion about logic or are you going to bloviate appears to authority who made unproven theories?
No one respectable  or educated will ever take you serious.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Bitcoin was obviously created by academics,

Not academics who bloviate theories without any empirical results in the real world.

Again what I stated about the 1800s is direct evidence that Hayek was incorrect.

bla bla

You still haven't read my logic and refuted my logic. So are we going to have interesting discussion about logic or are you going to bloviate appeals to authorities who made unproven theories?
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
get a room you two
^^^This is a troll post.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

As if academics could have invented Bitcoin.  Roll Eyes

Logic stands on its own. Authority has to rest on valid logic. Refute my logic. Afaics, my logic is consistent with Adam Smith to the extent that his body of work is applicable.
Bitcoin was obviously created by academics, and is a perfect example of a publically peer reviewed proposal with a proper whitepaper and proper citations, based on other already accepted and understood cryptographically related papers (which themselves do the same).

This is also how logic and reason work.  They are not based on subjective foundation but premises that are founded on insight and discovery from thousands of years of evolution of philosophy.

If you don't ground your arguments in accepted principles and theories, no one will or should pay any attention to them.

And no you are not in line with Smith and you have not cited anything by him and I have.  And I would wager you have not read any of his works but POSSIBLY a few paragraphs.  I have already shown Nash, Szabo, Finney, Hayek directly disagree with your assertions.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
If you don't believe in basing your argument in accepted economic theory and scientifically/objectively founded thinking, how much time do you think people will spend reading the words you put together?

As if academics could have invented Bitcoin.  Roll Eyes

Logic stands on its own. Authority has to rest on valid logic. Refute my logic. Afaics, my logic is consistent with Adam Smith to the extent that his body of work is applicable.

There is always extensive fraud in unregulated fractional reserve banking. The banksters game it and force a default on the nation as they did in the USA. Academics live in glass cathedrals and not in the real world.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


Did you even read my analysis? Appeals to authority are not valid in a meritocracy.

I posit that Hayek is incorrect and empirically so from the 1800s example in the USA. Also the economy is fundamentally changing, which is what I explained if you dig down into my recursive links starting from the one I provided to you for your timely edification.

We are moving away from a model where labor was fungible. Have you not read the essay at the top of the Economic Devastation thread written by myself Rise of Knowledge, Demise of [Usury] Finance.

Note I've also copied your thesis to the other thread for discussion there with @dinofelis.

Let the banksters have Buttcoin. We'll build something for us.
If you don't believe in basing your argument in accepted economic theory and scientifically/objectively founded thinking, how much time do you think people will spend reading the words you put together?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
You seem to be unaware that you are citing your own argument and the problem with doing so.  I have already shown Adam Smith directly refutes you, and now Hayek

Did you even read my analysis? Appeals to authority are not valid in a meritocracy.

I posit that Hayek is incorrect and empirically so from the 1800s example in the USA, wherein the economy was so destroyed by unregulated booms and busts that Rothschild had to bail out the US government. Also the economy is fundamentally changing, which is what I explained if you dig down into my recursive links starting from the one I provided to you for your timely edification.

We are moving away from a model where labor was fungible. Have you not read the essay at the top of the Economic Devastation thread written by myself Rise of Knowledge, Demise of [Usury] Finance.

Note I've also copied your thesis to the other thread for discussion there with @dinofelis.

Let the banksters have Buttcoin (and their dying usury, industrial age). We'll build something for us (the knowledge age workers and creators).
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


Incorrect. Fractional reserve systems without a central bank can't scale and are economically incompatible as we leave the industrial age and march into the knowledge age.

The banksters model of Bitcoin is antiquated and World Bank NWO directed.

You seem to be unaware that you are citing your own argument and the problem with doing so.  I have already shown Adam Smith directly refutes you, and now Hayek:

Quote
It seems to me to be fairly certain that:

(a) a money generally expected to preserve its purchasing power approximately constant would be in continuous demand so long as the people were free to use it;
(b) with such a continuing demand depending on success in keeping the value of the currency constant one could trust the issuing banks to make every effort to achieve this better than would any monopolist who runs no risk by depreciate his money;
(c) the issuing institution could achieve this result by regulating the quantify of its issue; and
(d) such a regulation of the quantity of each currency would constitute the best of all practicable methods of regulating the quantity of media of exchange for all possible purposes.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jokerpravis/the-re-levation-of-hayek-an-inquiry-into-denationalisation-of-money

And Nash refutes your claim as well as his argument runs perfectly parallel to Hayek's, by his own admission:

Quote
The talk text, just for the “ideal money” topic, originally derives from my outline for the lectures given at various specific locations of the “European School of Economics” in Italy during October 1997. Subsequent to that time, after consulting with some of the economics faculty at Princeton, I learned of the work and publications of Freidrich von Hayek. I must say that my thinking is apparently quite parallel to his thinking in relation to money and particularly with regard to the non-typical viewpoint in relation to the functions of the authorities which in recent times have been the sources of currencies (earlier “coinage”).)
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jokerpravis/internationally-ideal-money-the-re-solution-of-nashian-and-hayekian-economic-theory
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
You're refuting your own argument again.  The fractional reserve system is not evil, but the monopoly that governments/central banks on our money systems (traditionally) has caused the system to create it's own busts and recessions.  But fractional banking per se is not the problem, rather the lack of competition is the problem.  Bitcoin as a settlement system would attend to this problem and it also attends to the inefficiencies of the existing solutions.

Incorrect/disagree. Fractional reserve systems can't scale without a central bank and are economically incompatible as we leave the industrial age and march into the knowledge age.

The banksters model of Bitcoin is antiquated and World Bank NWO directed.

But you are correct on the other points you've argued:


High fees are a tax and increases opportunity cost, IT DISCOURAGES USE, simple economics.

That isn't simple economics its a circular argument.  IF bitcoin's most optimal and valuable use case is to transact then we might be able to see a fee increase would negatively affect its utility as such and that this would discourage use.

But bitcoin can serve a different purpose which is a fairly stable value settlement system for meta-players (ie big banks), and this would serve a valuable purpose as well.

Your argument is premised on the former and ignores the possibility of the latter.  In regard to the latter bitcoin's other advantage you are ignoring is that it is far more secure in regard to its value proposition than any other coin.  Ethereum is far from mature in the security sense and they still have to get to PoS which is uncharted water, it hasn't been scientifically tested/proved.

It's not scientific to not consider a different possibly valid perspective.

You just said changing the Bitcoin block size limit would 'destroy its digital gold properties' and 'would tank the system', then I shown you Satoshi had always wanted to increase the block size limit, a long time ago.

So either Satoshi wanted to 'tank the system' himself, or you are wrong, it can't get any more simpler than that.

Satoshi showed how it could be done if we decided to do it, and the subsequent posts were people complaining on how obviously difficult it would be to remove as time went by.  Satoshi never responded but assuming he was smarter than the others its obvious that he realized the truth of this too.  

He gave the people a pacifier, an example of how it COULD be done, it was nothing more, and there is nothing more in the quote to suggest he implied more. He basically said, "You can change it, but you all just have to agree when and how" and he disappeared and choose not to participate in this debate.

The higher BTC price gets, the less people that will pay it transaction fees, not everyone is a US or European Citizen.

The only reason that the fees can be so high is if the network utility is valued high enough to support such use.  So you can't simultaneously say bitcoin will become irrelevant AND the fees will be high.  You would be, again, refuting your own argument. It COULD be true though that many users that use bitcoin for cheap transactions today, would use other currencies (or 2nd layers solutions) for such transactions in the future.  But this doesn't speak to the value of the system, because, and like I quoted Szabo and Finney explaining, bitcoin would be very valuable as a high powered settlement layer, and then for that function the higher fees would be completely acceptable.

The higher fees come from transactions that are sending large value.  You can't claim that the system will be irrelevant when bigger and more wealth players are using it. Its just not a system for the average citizen and it was never meant to be.  

But it is still being adopted because its value is increasing in relation to domestic fiat, which is exactly what fuels adoption, not transaction capacity, and not the cheapness to transact otherwise litecoin etc. would have a billion+ dollar market cap.



Szabo has also laid an extensive argument for bitcoin to function as a settlement system and the purpose and value of it and Finney also discussed this based George Selgins observations and writings/teachings:



Quote
I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash. Most Bitcoin transactions will occur between banks, to settle net transfers.~https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2500.msg34211#msg34211
newbie
Activity: 3
Merit: 100
because there is nothing in present day reality to support their claims
traincarswreck, You seriously have not researched enough then, there is lots of material for each side, otherwise your just biased.

Anyway I said a 4 dotpoints a few hours ago before which you did not falsify.

I said:

Quote
Proving the premise that "increased in adoption -> increased centralization" is the stupidest argument I have ever started reading when this subject started appearing.

1. It assumes there is a specific limit on the amount of economic resources available for running nodes when in reality it is ill-defined.
2. Ignores economies of scale.
3. Ignores that the amount of new advanced users entering the space due to increased adoption can offset nodes being turned off in favor of SPV due to increased costs of running a node.
4. Ignores how much a bitcoin node can be optimized at the hardware level.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

traincarswreck, You seriously have not researched enough then, there is lots of material for each side, otherwise your just biased.

Anyway I said a 4 dotpoints a few hours ago before which you did not falsify.

I said:

Quote
Proving the premise that "increased in adoption -> increased centralization" is the stupidest argument I have ever started reading when this subject started appearing.

1. It assumes there is a specific limit on the amount of economic resources available for running nodes when in reality it is ill-defined.
2. Ignores economies of scale.
3. Ignores that the amount of new advanced users entering the space due to increased adoption can offset nodes being turned off in favor of SPV due to increased costs of running a node.
4. Ignores how much a bitcoin node can be optimized at the hardware level.

The premise you are refuting has nothing to do with my argument.

Smiley Smiley :)I suggest taking a moment to actually analyse the data available, rather than what you are currently engaged in.
There is no relevant data.  If there is then produce otherwise you are just another random new account not contributing or engaging in sincere discussion.

You no longer need to analyse the data since the revolution is now starting. We the investors and economic players will take away the power to decide what is best for bitcoin...
The users are the ignorant group in regard to the different players, and Satoshi designed the system so the users could never overthrow it.  There is no revolution on the guise of one.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Smiley Smiley :)I suggest taking a moment to actually analyse the data available, rather than what you are currently engaged in.

You no longer need to analyse the data since the revolution is now starting. We the investors and economic players will take away the power to decide what is best for bitcoin from the miners who are thinking of nothing but as to whom the control of bitcoin mining will go to. With UASF we have now the voice to protect our investment as UASF will now decide as to what changes must be adopted by bitcoins and for the investors rather than leaving it to the miners.

https://vote.bitcoin.com/arguments/bitcoin-unlimited-s-path-to-solve-bitcoin-s-scaling-issues-is-better-than-bitcoin-core-s

jr. member
Activity: 49
Merit: 2
"One of the biggest risks of using segregated witness as a scaling solution (which was surfaced at the conference) is that to obtain the scaling benefit it will require not only new bitcoin core code, but also new code to be written by each of the major wallet providers who are generating transactions. It is unlikely this will be done in time to avoid the scaling issue we are currently facing."
https://blog.coinbase.com/what-happened-at-the-satoshi-roundtable-6c11a10d8cdf
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 544
Smiley Smiley :)I suggest taking a moment to actually analyse the data available, rather than what you are currently engaged in.

You no longer need to analyse the data since the revolution is now starting. We the investors and economic players will take away the power to decide what is best for bitcoin from the miners who are thinking of nothing but as to whom the control of bitcoin mining will go to. With UASF we have now the voice to protect our investment as UASF will now decide as to what changes must be adopted by bitcoins and for the investors rather than leaving it to the miners.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
 Smiley Smiley :)I suggest taking a moment to actually analyse the data available, rather than what you are currently engaged in.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
And while committing logical fallacies and being a jackass, you claim the higher ground.  Nice.

I hate to break it to you, but you are acting like the garbage that you proclaim to abhor.

You're responding to a misinformation agent, a normal person simply doesn't think or respond like that, not with this kind of pattern. If you look beyond the bs he's spewing, you can see his pain, he is obviously someone who is forced to support something he doesn't even believe in, he has no passion, his reply is robotic and he is tired, but he can't stop because it is part of his job and his boss is watching, can you imagine how boring and stressful it is to have to think and respond like a broken robot all the time.

His first post here, back in 2014, was a thread claiming "Satoshi = Wei Dai = John Nash".

And this was his feedback:
OP ignored for display of blatant stupidity combined with attention-whoring shitty thread-title.

Most likely misinformation posted by government agent.

You can't wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.

sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

A voice of reason, thank you traincarswreck. Bitcoin has proven to be an amazing store-of-value asset, providing us all an option to beat the rising cost of rent, travel, healthcare, education, etc.


Cheers, yes the tone of the conversation changes when the Ver brigade doesn't get to decide who participates.


You are going to so disappointed.

I leave you to your religion.

Later,
 Cool
It's all proponents of change and especially BU can say, because there is nothing in present day reality to support their claims and they cannot give a date as to when such a terrible fate will happen because it would be a falsifiable claim, and they don't want to make such claims because they will be proved wrong and have no basis for choosing a date.  

You are calling my views religious which is an implication they are not scientific, but the obvious observable truth is that you are not making scientifically founded or falsifiable claims which is by definition subjective belief and not scientific.

And I absolutely expect you to resort to this and bow out because it is your only possible response to someone challenging you to quote accepted economic theory to back up your opinion.

No BU supporters will continue to participate in a discussion in which they are constantly asked to provide citations from accepted economic literature/science because there is no such works to cite that support their assertions/opinions.
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