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Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 27. (Read 46270 times)

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
I stated my primary concerns about SW (and in turn LN) above.

In 2014, it was generally safe to accept a 0/unconfirmed transaction, as the rules to determine if a transaction would confirm were fairly clear, and would not change (for the most part) from block to block, so you could look at the majority of unconfirmed transactions that you receive and say that it will either confirm within a few blocks, or that it will not confirm at all, and would usually be correct. There were multiple gambling sites that would display the result of an on-chain bet prior to the transaction/bet being confirmed, and the losses due to double spends were low enough so that they continued offering this service. Today, the criteria of if a transaction will be confirmed within the next few blocks changes from block to block and will mostly depend on recent transaction volume and what is in the mempool, however the advent of RBF further complicates this.

Accepting a 0/unconfirmed transaction (assuming there is sufficient block space) is not all that different from accepting a check or a credit card payment, as the risks are very similar. Some people have claimed that transaction fees will move towards zero if the max block size is too large, however this can be resolved by making transactions that include a fee of under x BTC/byte outright invalid, and in order to account that an acceptable fee rate might change over time, this can be done via a series of soft forks (eg have a soft fork that says that any transaction confirmed in blocks 500,000 through 550,000 that contain a tx fee of under 100 sat/byte are invalid, then around block 500,000 a new soft fork could be implemented that says any transaction confirmed in blocks 550,001 through 600,000 that contain a tx fee of under 98 sat/byte are invalid, and so on). If this was implemented, then the block size could be set so that the mempool is effectively cleared when each block is found.

It has never been safe to accept Zero Confirmations, considering BTC has on average 3 orphan block per day.
And to Double spend all I have to do is send out the 1st transaction with zero fees to a retail vendor, and then transfer all of my BTC to another address with a high transaction fee.

Sorry BTC requires 3 confirmations to be safe , anything else is just asking to be robbed.

 Cool
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000

Something else you should research : Priced Out of the Market
The higher BTC price gets, the less people that will pay it transaction fees, not everyone is a US or European Citizen.
Once BTC gets over $1.60 for transaction fees and it takes a week to process it , it is even cheaper & faster in the US to send a money order by USPS.  Wink
Odds are casual users will switch to LTC , ETH, or Doge way before that happens.

The only reason that the fees can be so high is if the network utility is valued high enough to support such use.  So you can't simultaneously say bitcoin will become irrelevant AND the fees will be high.  You would be, again, refuting your own argument. It COULD be true though that many users that use bitcoin for cheap transactions today, would use other currencies (or 2nd layers solutions) for such transactions in the future.  But this doesn't speak to the value of the system, because, and like I quoted Szabo and Finney explaining, bitcoin would be very valuable as a high powered settlement layer, and then for that function the higher fees would be completely acceptable.

The higher fees come from transactions that are sending large value.  You can't claim that the system will be irrelevant when bigger and more wealth players are using it. Its just not a system for the average citizen and it was never meant to be. 

But it is still being adopted because its value is increasing in relation to domestic fiat, which is exactly what fuels adoption, not transaction capacity, and not the cheapness to transact otherwise litecoin etc. would have a billion+ dollar market cap.

The Artificial Limit of 1MB blocksize is causing an artificial limit of transaction space , this causes the increased fee system and transaction delays.
BTC is too Young of a system to not increase OnChain Transaction capacity,
Offchain systems should happen later , BTC just does not have the market saturation to support these self imposed limitations out of greed.
And this will cause an exodus to cheaper faster Alts, which once someone gets used to a faster cheaper version, they won't go back unless BTC speeds up and cheapens up their fees.

Where are you seeing increased adoption, business have been dropping BTC usage not expanding it.
Users are more content to hold and hope the price goes up , than spend it on a daily basis.
BTC is a speculation, it has failed to be adopted as a currency and unless things change quickly , it is losing that window forever.

 Cool
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
The reason why the price is going down is because we don't like the BU threat that will give the power over the blocksize to just 5 mining pool operators (or effectively 1 ASIC manufacturer.) I like bitcoin for it's decentralization properties, not because I trust Jihan Wu so much. I will never accept the idiotic idea called "emergent consensus."

Big blocks are great. I definitely want to see safely planned blocksize increase after Segwit. And if it won't be merged in the beginning in Bitcoin Core, I will just support another client, but emergent consensus is still a joke and Segwit is still the obvious way forward.
Others have said this before, and I think it is worth saying again. The support that BU is getting is not because the ideas behind BU are so great, it is because of the strong opposition to Core and SW.

I don't believe there are any SW features that are *needed* today/now, but are rather features that might be nice to have in the future. Larger blocks on the other hand is something that Bitcoin has needed for years now. I don't see a reason why SW should get implemented prior to larger blocks, especially after what happened with the HK agreement.

Even if you don't like some Core developers, it should not be a reason to support a broken risky concept "emergent consensus" and to reject Segwit without any proper technical arguments.
I don't think there is necessarily a dislike of certain Core devs, I think it is more a dislike of Core as a whole, likely including their scaling roadmap.

I think the appeal behind EC is that it has shown to be very difficult to raise the max block size, even when there has been a reasonable argument (you may not agree with it) that the block size needs to be immidiately raised for the past two years, and EC removes the vast majority of the friction of raising the max block size in the future. I don't personally like EC very much, however I think it is better than the status quo -- I would personally like to see something along the lines of BIP 101, and if the max block size in BIP 101 turns out to be too fast, the max block size can effectively be reduced via soft forks.

In regards to SW, I believe I have read that it is something like 50,000 lines of code, which implies it is horribly complex (I am not 100% sure on this stat, although this fact is given little weight in my opinion), and it leads to things that will change the security model of Bitcoin. As it stands today, the miners receive ~all of the transaction fees, which is what gives them incentives to keep the network secure. By removing revenue from the miners, you are lowering the EV of a $1 investment in mining equipment to use to secure the network, and increasing the EV of a $1 investment in mining equipment to be used to harm the network (currently negative).

Some people have said that on-chain transaction will happen anyway, and happen today, for example when someone with a Coinbase account sends money to someone else's Coinbase account. This is true, however there is significant friction by doing this because of the counterparty risk, and because of the lack of privacy that this entails. SW (via LN) will reduce this friction by nearly eliminating the counterparty risk (there are still very real ways that a party acting maliciously could attempt to steal your money, and often be successful).


Segwit will give us effectively 2.1 MB blocks (if used.) If "Roger Ver" and "Jihan Wu" really cared about "more transactions", they could have Segwit activated in just a few weeks. Any blocksize increase by HF will take much longer than that - especially if you want to have a non-contentious HF (eg no blockchain split.) This should be enough reason to activate Segwit ASAP even if someone hates "Core" so much. We can just focus on a good dynamic blocksize increase with safe thresholds etc after that.
According to coin.dance (I have some concerns about their reporting, but they will do for now), 28% of companies are not ready for SW, and an additional 5% are outright against it. Some who are "not ready" are probably against SW, but just don't want to say because they don't want to get involved in political disputes. As a result of this, I would consider SW to be a contentious fork, even if you want to sell it as a soft fork, which I disagree with (I actually have been recently unable to find any references to "soft fork" and "hard from" from days prior to Bitcoin, so I believe these terms, and definitions were made up by someone/some group within the Bitcoin ecosystem, and my understanding as to what a "soft fork" is has changed over the past couple of years, eg. I would give you a different definition of a "soft fork" in 2014, than what I would say that the devs consider a "soft fork" today, I am not sure if this is because my understanding of Bitcoin has improved, or if the devs have evolved the definition of "soft fork" over time).  

At this point, I don't think that a contentious fork is avoidable when it comes to scaling solutions, at least not for the first step. I would be very surprised if anything that resembles consensus is reached for a scaling solution, especially the unrealistic high bar that many core devs, and other prominent players have said is necessary.

In my opinion second layers like the Lightning Network are very cool too and will be much easier with Segwit too. Buying coffee was never really feasible with bitcoin, not because of the fees, but because of the slow blocks (10 min avg, but frequently 1h.) LN will not just make micro-transactions very cheap, but also allows them to be instant. Of course it would still take years before we can really use this, but if we could at least test it on mainnet already - progress will probably go even quicker. Note that there are already 6 different LN implementations: Amiko-Pay, Eclair (ACINQ), lightningd (Blockstream), lit (MIT Digital Currency Initiative), lnd(Lightning Co), Thunder (Blockchain.info) - some of them work already on testnet. While I still have many skeptical questions about LN, it does seem nice for small (low-value) payments.
I stated my primary concerns about SW (and in turn LN) above.

In 2014, it was generally safe to accept a 0/unconfirmed transaction, as the rules to determine if a transaction would confirm were fairly clear, and would not change (for the most part) from block to block, so you could look at the majority of unconfirmed transactions that you receive and say that it will either confirm within a few blocks, or that it will not confirm at all, and would usually be correct. There were multiple gambling sites that would display the result of an on-chain bet prior to the transaction/bet being confirmed, and the losses due to double spends were low enough so that they continued offering this service. Today, the criteria of if a transaction will be confirmed within the next few blocks changes from block to block and will mostly depend on recent transaction volume and what is in the mempool, however the advent of RBF further complicates this.

Accepting a 0/unconfirmed transaction (assuming there is sufficient block space) is not all that different from accepting a check or a credit card payment, as the risks are very similar. Some people have claimed that transaction fees will move towards zero if the max block size is too large, however this can be resolved by making transactions that include a fee of under x BTC/byte outright invalid, and in order to account that an acceptable fee rate might change over time, this can be done via a series of soft forks (eg have a soft fork that says that any transaction confirmed in blocks 500,000 through 550,000 that contain a tx fee of under 100 sat/byte are invalid, then around block 500,000 a new soft fork could be implemented that says any transaction confirmed in blocks 550,001 through 600,000 that contain a tx fee of under 98 sat/byte are invalid, and so on). If this was implemented, then the block size could be set so that the mempool is effectively cleared when each block is found.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

Something else you should research : Priced Out of the Market
The higher BTC price gets, the less people that will pay it transaction fees, not everyone is a US or European Citizen.
Once BTC gets over $1.60 for transaction fees and it takes a week to process it , it is even cheaper & faster in the US to send a money order by USPS.  Wink
Odds are casual users will switch to LTC , ETH, or Doge way before that happens.

The only reason that the fees can be so high is if the network utility is valued high enough to support such use.  So you can't simultaneously say bitcoin will become irrelevant AND the fees will be high.  You would be, again, refuting your own argument. It COULD be true though that many users that use bitcoin for cheap transactions today, would use other currencies (or 2nd layers solutions) for such transactions in the future.  But this doesn't speak to the value of the system, because, and like I quoted Szabo and Finney explaining, bitcoin would be very valuable as a high powered settlement layer, and then for that function the higher fees would be completely acceptable.

The higher fees come from transactions that are sending large value.  You can't claim that the system will be irrelevant when bigger and more wealth players are using it. Its just not a system for the average citizen and it was never meant to be. 

But it is still being adopted because its value is increasing in relation to domestic fiat, which is exactly what fuels adoption, not transaction capacity, and not the cheapness to transact otherwise litecoin etc. would have a billion+ dollar market cap.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000


Of Course BTC is controlled by a Conspiracy,

An increasing BTC Price Hurts Adoption as it prices it out of the Reach of many in Foreign countries where they have an extremely low exchange rate with the US or Europe.

I'm only going to address this because the rest is an extension of your belief in such conspiracies while ignoring the basis for market theory and especially in regard to rational self interest.

What you have said here is that the price of bitcoin going up (and implied) in relation to respective domestic fiat hurts adoption.  But this is a very silly and incorrect understanding of the effects of bitcoin's rising value/price.  If the price is going up then it makes more sense for people of a national to exchange their fiat for bitcoin.  This is why countries like venezuela have a steadily increasing adoption rate, and why local bitcoin's has a growing user base.

It's nonsensical to imply that bitcoin's price prices out users. It doesn't make sense, you can always buy less bitcoin for the same price if it is rising, and you always benefit from it rising.

Something else you should research : Priced Out of the Market
The higher BTC price gets, the less people that will pay it transaction fees, not everyone is a US or European Citizen.
Once BTC gets over $1.60 for transaction fees and it takes a week to process it , it is even cheaper & faster in the US to send a money order by USPS.  Wink
(Also No Worries about Price Fluctuations with a Money order, BTC could decrease by $200 in a week.)
Odds are casual users will switch to LTC , ETH, or Doge way before that happens.
Crypto transaction have to be Fast , to avoid market fluctuations that can destroy value, before it is even received.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/priced-out.asp
Quote
DEFINITION of 'Priced Out'

The state of being unable to invest in a particular market or purchase a particular product or service. When someone is priced out of a market, their choices are to simply remain out of the market, to wait for the market to become more affordable, to improve their own financial situation to the point where they can afford to buy, or, if possible, to consider a different market. For example, someone who was priced out of the luxury car market could look at economy cars instead.
BREAKING DOWN 'Priced Out'

"Priced out" is commonly used to refer to the real estate market. For example, residents of cities with extremely high average home prices, such as Newport Beach, Calif., would be said to be priced out of the market if they could not afford even an entry-level home. The options available to someone who is priced out of a real estate market would include buying in a different area, waiting for the supply of housing to increase enough to lower housing prices or getting a higher-paying job that would allow them to afford a property.

 Cool
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


Of Course BTC is controlled by a Conspiracy,

An increasing BTC Price Hurts Adoption as it prices it out of the Reach of many in Foreign countries where they have an extremely low exchange rate with the US or Europe.

I'm only going to address this because the rest is an extension of your belief in such conspiracies while ignoring the basis for market theory and especially in regard to rational self interest.

What you have said here is that the price of bitcoin going up (and implied) in relation to respective domestic fiat hurts adoption.  But this is a very silly and incorrect understanding of the effects of bitcoin's rising value/price.  If the price is going up then it makes more sense for people of a national to exchange their fiat for bitcoin.  This is why countries like venezuela have a steadily increasing adoption rate, and why local bitcoin's has a growing user base.

It's nonsensical to imply that bitcoin's price prices out users. It doesn't make sense, you can always buy less bitcoin for the same price if it is rising, and you always benefit from it rising.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

Referencing market cap only gives you away as having no opinion of your own re the technology. Two years from now most successful coins will be Proof-of-Stake or some hybrid of PoW/PoS.
Successful in their own right perhaps, which is why I am a fan of projects like ethereum, but in the meantime there is no scientific basis or empirical evidence to suggest such projects are secure long term.  Quoting a future that hasn't happened is not a founded argument. The discussion is interesting but you can't move the markets with an assertion and the bitcoin network will not accept an unfounded proposal for significant change, the collective of checks and balances between all the different interests won't allow it-the collective is smarter than the irrational unfounded individual or any faction made up of such individuals (which is a point I make based on a well expressed argument given by Hayek which I have already partially cited/quoted).
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
Should we take a little look in your own backyard? Zander & Jannsen caught lying:



Roger Ver lying & dishonesty:
https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/846142941441744897


-snip-
They seem to have a task force specifically assigned to close block size increase pull requests.  Grin So fast reaction.
Any consensus changes can't be made on a whim. You should know that. I was about to comment on the stupidity of the pull request. Segwit is a pretty great change, supported by a supermajority of the people whom you may consider *experts* in this technology.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
https://i.imgsafe.org/8a71a2139b.png

They seem to have a task force specifically assigned to close block size increase pull requests.  Grin So fast reaction.

Closed within 7 minutes, that is extremely fast for pull request standards, you can almost hear the alarm bells going off.

I've always found the name 'SegWit' too technical and too confusing to non developers. They really should just name the whole thing after the desperate Blockstream cut outs and call it FukWit instead.

This way people can get the gist of it immediately without going through the technical manual.

I welcome side chain developments, just don't do it at the cost of limiting the main chain and stop using dirty tactics.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
I'm still asking for clarity on whether or not you think bitcoin is controlled by a conspiracy. The examples you are pointing out do not speak to the point that markets are to serve as our only objective basis for valuation.

What you are pointing out is what bitcoin is meant to address which is the negative effects that monopoly and regulation create (even though the claim is the regulation is meant to make the markets more fair).  Bitcoin has whales and early adopters and they will serve their own rational self interest.  This is what the system was built on and how it was intended to function.  To call that manipulation is not scientific its the will of the markets.  Giving it a negative connotation is your subjective viewpoint just like the news articles that gives sentiments and narration (zero hedge is known as a fringe cite for example).

Of Course BTC is controlled by a Conspiracy,

An increasing BTC Price Hurts Adoption as it prices it out of the Reach of many in Foreign countries where they have an extremely low exchange rate with the US or Europe.
For BTC Price to increase so dramatically within a year , it can only be manipulation by the Elite Few that have been stockpiling BTC at much lower prices,
since it's Utility Usage has been on the decline the entire time.

FYI: BTC is just History Repeating itself
Read the Following to Compare
https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/diamond-de-beers-marketing-campaign#sm.001ja9o8j17uje94zbj2hil8a92hy
Quote
How It All Started

Diamonds haven't been rare stones since 1870, when huge diamond mines were discovered in South Africa. Soon after the discovery, the British financiers behind the South African mining efforts realized the diamond market would be saturated if they didn't do something about it. So in 1888, they set two audacious goals:

1) Monopolize diamond prices. They succeeded by creating De Beers Consolidated Mines, Ltd. and taking full ownership and control of the world diamond trade. While they stockpiled diamonds and sold them strategically to control price, De Beers Chairman Sir Ernest Oppenheimer cultivated a network of wholesalers all over the world.

2) Stabilize the market. To succeed here, De Beers would have to figure out a way to control both supply and demand for diamonds worldwide. For this, they would need to find an ad agency.

When De Beers began looking for an ad agency, the global economy was suffering and Europe was under threat of war. Their challenge was to figure out which country or countries had the most potential to support a growing diamond market, and then to hire an agency to implement a marketing campaign in those countries. Because of Europe's preoccupation with the oncoming war, the U.S. was chosen -- even though the total number of diamonds in the U.S. had declined by nearly 50% since the end of World War I.

https://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/
Quote
MYTH: Diamonds are rare.
MYTH: Diamonds are the most valuable gem.
MYTH: Diamonds are precious.
MYTH: A person can make a lot of money selling diamonds.

Compared to BTC Myths
MYTH:  BTC is the Best Coin ,  (Techically the oldest and slowest and least # of transactions per second.)
MYTH:  BTC only goes up in Price.  (People that purchased in Nov 2013 have been in the hole , until Jan 2017, and barely broke even.)
MYTH:  BTC will make you Rich.  (Aside from early adopters , no regular guy has done well since 2013. Not enough to be Rich.)

Same Scam , just a different product , replace De Beers with China & Miners and Diamonds with BTC.  Wink

 Cool
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250


NXT is 100% Proof-of-Stake, no inflation currency/platform. It has been in production since late 2013.
Research papers and tools can be found here:
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch
If you haven't read about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Bitcoin should draw from the Proof-of-Stake coins experience and implement a hybrid PoW/PoS to be more secure and not depend on miners so much. The sufferings will continue if users don't have any power over consensus. Proof-of-Stake coins give power back to users.
nxt's market cap is $11million dollars.  It is not proof of anything.

Referencing market cap only gives you away as having no opinion of your own re the technology. Two years from now most successful coins will be Proof-of-Stake or some hybrid of PoW/PoS.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


NXT is 100% Proof-of-Stake, no inflation currency/platform. It has been in production since late 2013.
Research papers and tools can be found here:
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch
If you haven't read about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Bitcoin should draw from the Proof-of-Stake coins experience and implement a hybrid PoW/PoS to be more secure and not depend on miners so much. The sufferings will continue if users don't have any power over consensus. Proof-of-Stake coins give power back to users.
nxt's market cap is $11million dollars.  It is not proof of anything. If users had control of the fate of bitcoin they would run it into the ground just like the citizens of the US would destroy their own freedom if they had a pure democracy.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
Szabo has also laid an extensive argument for bitcoin to function as a settlement system and the purpose and value of it and Finney also discussed this based George Selgins observations and writings/teachings:



Quote
I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash. Most Bitcoin transactions will occur between banks, to settle net transfers.~https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2500.msg34211#msg34211
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1015


They seem to have a task force specifically assigned to close block size increase pull requests.  Grin So fast reaction.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
That isn't simple economics its a circular argument.  IF bitcoin's most optimal and valuable use case is to transact then we might be able to see a fee increase would negatively affect its utility as such and that this would discourage use.

But bitcoin can serve a different purpose which is a fairly stable value settlement system for meta-players (ie big banks), and this would serve a valuable purpose as well.

Your argument is premised on the former and ignores the possibility of the latter.  In regard to the latter bitcoin's other advantage you are ignoring is that it is far more secure in regard to its value proposition than any other coin.  Ethereum is far from mature in the security sense and they still have to get to PoS which is uncharted water, it hasn't been scientifically tested/proved.

It's not scientific to not consider a different possibly valid perspective.

NXT is 100% Proof-of-Stake, no inflation currency/platform. It has been in production since late 2013.
Research papers and tools can be found here:
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch
If you haven't read about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Bitcoin should draw from the Proof-of-Stake coins experience and implement a hybrid PoW/PoS to be more secure and not depend on miners so much. The sufferings will continue if users don't have any power over consensus. Proof-of-Stake coins give power back to users.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
I'm still asking for clarity on whether or not you think bitcoin is controlled by a conspiracy. The examples you are pointing out do not speak to the point that markets are to serve as our only objective basis for valuation.

What you are pointing out is what bitcoin is meant to address which is the negative effects that monopoly and regulation create (even though the claim is the regulation is meant to make the markets more fair).  Bitcoin has whales and early adopters and they will serve their own rational self interest.  This is what the system was built on and how it was intended to function.  To call that manipulation is not scientific its the will of the markets.  Giving it a negative connotation is your subjective viewpoint just like the news articles that gives sentiments and narration (zero hedge is known as a fringe cite for example).

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1015
Clear evidence of Blockstream controlling the Core code base to prevent block size increase can be seen here,  someone offered to help increasing the blocksize, but the issue was closed immediately by sipa (Pieter Wuille, Blockstream co-founder):
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10028

You can see Pieter Wuille closed the issue immediately but then try to justify it with the usual corporate double speak by claiming the issue is up to the community and out of his hand.

This is what we call 'lying'.

If we're talking about increasing block size from 4MB to 8MB, there maybe some room for debate.

But nothing can justify not going form 1MB to 2MB, there is a real backlog and the safety limit is above 4MB.

Blockstream is clearly holding the bitcoin code base hostage.

Here is another pull request for block size increase, closed immediately without any comment:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10014


This should do it:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10092
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

I see the problem, you don't know that the Bitcoins Markets are Pure Manipulation by a few power players.
Every Single Market that has a Global Reach is being manipulated , until you comprehend that you are only a pawn in their games.



 Cool

Ok so just to be clear you are saying its a conspiracy?

What I am suggesting to you is that you don't understand market theory and that your argument about how the markets work is not based on accepted scientific theory.

For your education:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-14/markets-are-manipulated

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1185&context=yjreg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-16/athena-to-pay-1-million-in-sec-hft-manipulation-case

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-08/deutsche-bank-records-alleged-to-show-banks-rigged-silver-prices

Best for last
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-11/bitcoin-plummets-after-china-launches-market-manipulation-investigations-bitcoin-exc

 Cool
newbie
Activity: 3
Merit: 100
Quote
Bitcoin as a settlement layer is the most valuable technological solution in the world and the macro economic implications are incredible.  The problem is that it would be impossible for Satoshi to explain it to people like you who think banks are simply intrinsically "evil" (which is a religious view not based on science).

Do I really need to say why banks are terrible? What your begging for is fractional reserve banking through bitcoin to appear. Banks are EVIL. They do not create wealth in society they steal it by creating debt without paying for it. Their only needed service is to be a middle man to secure "funds" and provide better liquidity (real gold is not liquid), which right up until bitcoin is the only reason why they needed to exist.

The cheap credit that banks create through fractional reserves are DIRECTLY responsible for the misallocation of capital that causes unnecessary hard ship.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

I see the problem, you don't know that the Bitcoins Markets are Pure Manipulation by a few power players.
Every Single Market that has a Global Reach is being manipulated , until you comprehend that you are only a pawn in their games.



 Cool

Ok so just to be clear you are saying its a conspiracy?

What I am suggesting to you is that you don't understand market theory and that your argument about how the markets work is not based on accepted scientific theory.
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