Fuel prices hitting an eight year high - page 14.

DaveF

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Quote from: stompix on October 16, 2021, 10:30:54 AM

I just find it funny how your first example is a corporation that produces only green energy. Grin

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

It was just on a list of German energy suppliers profit from low to high.
They are all for profit companies, most of which have net profit % that other businesses can only hope for.
Don't care if it's green energy or the worst dirty coal out there, for the most part there is more money going to profit then to green.

Not saying that it does not suck. Just that green is only part of the suck. Blaming green for the entire suck is just not a good argument. You could say if the green was removed it would suck less. But you can't say if the green was removed it would not suck.

Quote from: stompix on October 16, 2021, 10:30:54 AM

It is a big number!
It means 500Euros per citizen, counting in normal Us prices around 5000Kwh a year per citizen, adding the average German consumption per household! at 3000 in the equation one might wonder why are we paying 3 times the bill in subsidies each year.

Possibly, the 500 per citizen assumes that everyone uses the same amount. I can't speak for Germany, and for some reason can't find the numbers, but I would *think* (note think, don't know, can't find) that Germany like most industrialized countries heavy industry and commercial industry in general uses more energy then homes. At a guess, VW, Daimler, BMW, Airbus probably are using more energy then most towns. Could be wrong on that, just going by what I know in the US.

The cost does get passed along, but it's not a 1:1 ratio.

Opinion: This is why the there is so much arguing going on. It's not black and white. It's one big pool of grey. Kind of like the title of this post itself. Would it have the same impact if instead of 'Fuel prices hitting an eight year high' is was 'Fuel prices close to 70% of what they were in summer 2008'

If we could all move a bit, more might be accomplished.

-Dave

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Quote from: DrBeer on October 15, 2021, 03:19:53 PM

One catastrophe is enough for me - the Chernobyl disaster. I would like to wish you with all my heart that you and your family never crossed paths with this evil ...

I did, so keep your sympathy to yourself, some parts of Eastern Europe were more affected than the east of Ukraine.

Quote from: DrBeer on October 15, 2021, 03:19:53 PM

One such accident is enough for many tens of years, many millions of people to suffer.

Let's add the sufferance of those who can't afford to heat their home and live like in the dark ages to this?
Let's add the sufferance of those who are unemployed because the factory where they worked had to shut down?
Let's add the sufferance of those who will not be able to afford food with these prices?
Let's count those deaths too, shouldn't we?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/27/dying-cold-europe-fuel-poverty-energy-spending

Luckily for us even treehuggers seem to have 1% of their brain functional:
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-slashes-renewable-energy-tax-due-to-soaring-prices/a-59517333

Quote from: DaveF on October 16, 2021, 08:27:30 AM

Running around looking to blame green energy or the evil oil producing countries is not giving the full answer.
I asked about costs a few posts up and stompix posted a link about Germany spending $38 billion on green energy
Which looks like a big number.

It is a big number!
It means 500Euros per citizen, counting in normal Us prices around 5000Kwh a year per citizen, adding the average German consumption per household! at 3000 in the equation one might wonder why are we paying 3 times the bill in subsidies each year.

Quote from: DaveF on October 16, 2021, 08:27:30 AM

https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/pressreleases/2021/vattenfall--year-end-report-2020
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/RWEOY/rwe-ag/profit-margins
and so on.

Germans (and others) are paying for corporate profits. Green energy is just a scapegoat.

I just find it funny how your first example is a corporation that produces only green energy. Grin

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

DaveF

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If you look here https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gasoline-prices and click on the 25 year chart
or here https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_m.htm you can see that we are nowhere near the high price mark of fuel.
And those charts are in unadjusted $ so the price in todays money would be higher.

Now that the worlds economies are recovering from the pandemic prices are going to go up.
Transport and logistics are a mess at the moment so prices are going to go up.

Running around looking to blame green energy or the evil oil producing countries is not giving the full answer.
I asked about costs a few posts up and stompix posted a link about Germany spending $38 billion on green energy
Which looks like a big number.

But the Renewable energy surcharge for Germany went from 23% in 2018 to 21% in 2019 and is 20% in 2021
The grid cost was about the same (my question) however the cost of acquisition for the power has gone up from 21% to 24% of the bill.

Part of that cost is the profit for the suppliers. Anyone want to check on their profit margins? No, OK I'll save you the effort.
Although 2021 numbers are not out yet:

https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/pressreleases/2021/vattenfall--year-end-report-2020
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/RWEOY/rwe-ag/profit-margins
and so on.

Germans (and others) are paying for corporate profits. Green energy is just a scapegoat.

-Dave

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Quote from: peter0425 on October 15, 2021, 11:35:38 PM

Quote from: Victorycoin on October 15, 2021, 11:12:09 PM

The highest price of fuel will lead the world to destruction instead of fossil fuels nuclear energy can easily be promoted as an alternative energy source after the chernoby and fukushima accidents, most people are instinctively considering nuclear power to be dangerous, making it quite unpopular now. Germany and japan have shut down many nuclear power plants since the fukushima accident. Which greatly endangers the habitation of our planet nuclear power is a good option.

People are only looking to the devastation but not in the advantage and the good effect , this is the problem why we are still in trouble of energy when there are other sources .
Nuclear power made some mistakes and people drying , but what about those people who extend their lives because of the energy from nuclear?
and besides our world now is getting advanced so yes we can prevent such mistakes in the past by doing the right thing now.

It's a normal thing where there are pros and cons about technological developments, and of course every development has its weaknesses, and those weaknesses should always be covered up, so that they are close to perfect. but in fact many people do not dare to take risks, because of various interests

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Quote from: peter0425 on October 15, 2021, 11:35:38 PM

Quote from: Victorycoin on October 15, 2021, 11:12:09 PM

The highest price of fuel will lead the world to destruction instead of fossil fuels nuclear energy can easily be promoted as an alternative energy source after the chernoby and fukushima accidents, most people are instinctively considering nuclear power to be dangerous, making it quite unpopular now. Germany and japan have shut down many nuclear power plants since the fukushima accident. Which greatly endangers the habitation of our planet nuclear power is a good option.

People are only looking to the devastation but not in the advantage and the good effect , this is the problem why we are still in trouble of energy when there are other sources .
Nuclear power made some mistakes and people drying , but what about those people who extend their lives because of the energy from nuclear?
and besides our world now is getting advanced so yes we can prevent such mistakes in the past by doing the right thing now.

If there are safer sources of energies like solar and wind, why to keep risking ourselves with nuclear energy? As everyone know it's too dangerous and nobody can predict an accident, it just happens, and once it happens there isn't anything to do besides regretting the actions which lead to that.

Green energy could be already supplying everyone, but it's not interesting for the small group who rules the world as they profit from the precariousness, so it's definitely not going to happen soon. That would be the ideal, because people would be finally autonomous in energy production paying very low costs to supply their homes and to fuel their vehicles.

peter0425

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Quote from: Victorycoin on October 15, 2021, 11:12:09 PM

The highest price of fuel will lead the world to destruction instead of fossil fuels nuclear energy can easily be promoted as an alternative energy source after the chernoby and fukushima accidents, most people are instinctively considering nuclear power to be dangerous, making it quite unpopular now. Germany and japan have shut down many nuclear power plants since the fukushima accident. Which greatly endangers the habitation of our planet nuclear power is a good option.

People are only looking to the devastation but not in the advantage and the good effect , this is the problem why we are still in trouble of energy when there are other sources .
Nuclear power made some mistakes and people drying , but what about those people who extend their lives because of the energy from nuclear?
and besides our world now is getting advanced so yes we can prevent such mistakes in the past by doing the right thing now.

Victorycoin

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The highest price of fuel will lead the world to destruction instead of fossil fuels nuclear energy can easily be promoted as an alternative energy source after the chernoby and fukushima accidents, most people are instinctively considering nuclear power to be dangerous, making it quite unpopular now. Germany and japan have shut down many nuclear power plants since the fukushima accident. Which greatly endangers the habitation of our planet nuclear power is a good option.

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Quote from: Gyfts on October 15, 2021, 05:58:27 PM

Quote from: DrBeer on October 10, 2021, 07:37:06 AM

Quote from: Gyfts on October 09, 2021, 04:43:00 AM

Quote from: stompix on October 08, 2021, 02:13:37 PM

...

It's always troubled me that the green folks wanting to eliminate fossil fuels will turn their head away from nuclear energy, pretending that the fate of Chernobyl is emblematic of all nuclear energy plants. OPEC has the monopoly on oil and the R&D into green forms of energy aren't happening fast enough, especially when you eliminate nuclear as an option.

My position is as follows.
- oil and gas, in a world where its consumption will drop noticeably in the future, is now becoming a weapon, or a means of terrorism in some hands. This means that it is necessary to look for an alternative and diversify the supply of this resource, in order to reduce the effect of economic terror to zero. As you can see, on the market only 1 semi-monopolist begins to "show" what he can do if his conditions are not met, and has already exponentially inflated the gas price over $ 2,000. Such suppliers should simply be removed from the market.
- NPP is a rather controversial decision. On the one hand, it is a highly efficient source of electricity. On the other hand, over the past decades there has been a huge number of very serious accidents. Each nuclear power plant is a potential global collapse. And given that cheap and affordable electricity for some entities is an inconvenient competitor, and they have no moral principles, NPPs can become the next means of terror. It is enough to stop the nuclear power plant - and entire regions will be without electricity, the collapse of production, logistics and other things. But this may not seem enough, and people who swarmed the idea of world terrorism, and who easily use chemical warfare agents against citizens of other countries, will commit a full-fledged terrorist attack at nuclear power plants without unnecessary torment of conscience. And this is already tens of thousands of lives, millions of kilometers of territories polluted for centuries ... No, this is not paranoia. This is a simple statement of what will happen if no alternative paths are found.
- Solar, tidal, wind, and other technologies - may well become the alternative that will provide the required amount of energy, without significant risks. For this, a good step would be a legislative norm - taxes on the production and sale of oil and gas for the development of more efficient green technologies. Just imagine what will happen if today's efficiency of mass-produced solar panels becomes 2-3 times more efficient and the price falls? Who will need oil and gas in such volumes?

I don't really think that nuclear is as dangerous as people think it is.

Chernobyl isn't emblematic of nuclear energy, although it's something a lot of people think about on this topic. Keep in mind, what happened in Chernobyl was during the Soviet era with low safety standards and ancient technology. We're light years ahead of what we had then, and I don't think the small risk of accidents outweigh the amount of energy you can produce. Realistically, nuclear waste is the only downside, but oil production produces a lot of waste within itself. Oil results in larger CO2 emissions as well, so the trade off isn't that bad.

All countries should have nuclear energy unless they want to exploit countries' resources until it's all gone. Big countries always want to oppress the countries that are not developed and prevent them from improving by spreading the lies about what happened to Chernobyl could happen to them while their own country has their nuclear power. Did they think they are better to handle nuclear plants than the ones who have not tried yet? It happens to Japan but it's all because of a natural event, there was a Tsunami. Yes, it's dangerous but it's only if not taken cautiously.

Gyfts

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Quote from: DrBeer on October 10, 2021, 07:37:06 AM

Quote from: Gyfts on October 09, 2021, 04:43:00 AM

Quote from: stompix on October 08, 2021, 02:13:37 PM

...

It's always troubled me that the green folks wanting to eliminate fossil fuels will turn their head away from nuclear energy, pretending that the fate of Chernobyl is emblematic of all nuclear energy plants. OPEC has the monopoly on oil and the R&D into green forms of energy aren't happening fast enough, especially when you eliminate nuclear as an option.

My position is as follows.
- oil and gas, in a world where its consumption will drop noticeably in the future, is now becoming a weapon, or a means of terrorism in some hands. This means that it is necessary to look for an alternative and diversify the supply of this resource, in order to reduce the effect of economic terror to zero. As you can see, on the market only 1 semi-monopolist begins to "show" what he can do if his conditions are not met, and has already exponentially inflated the gas price over $ 2,000. Such suppliers should simply be removed from the market.
- NPP is a rather controversial decision. On the one hand, it is a highly efficient source of electricity. On the other hand, over the past decades there has been a huge number of very serious accidents. Each nuclear power plant is a potential global collapse. And given that cheap and affordable electricity for some entities is an inconvenient competitor, and they have no moral principles, NPPs can become the next means of terror. It is enough to stop the nuclear power plant - and entire regions will be without electricity, the collapse of production, logistics and other things. But this may not seem enough, and people who swarmed the idea of world terrorism, and who easily use chemical warfare agents against citizens of other countries, will commit a full-fledged terrorist attack at nuclear power plants without unnecessary torment of conscience. And this is already tens of thousands of lives, millions of kilometers of territories polluted for centuries ... No, this is not paranoia. This is a simple statement of what will happen if no alternative paths are found.
- Solar, tidal, wind, and other technologies - may well become the alternative that will provide the required amount of energy, without significant risks. For this, a good step would be a legislative norm - taxes on the production and sale of oil and gas for the development of more efficient green technologies. Just imagine what will happen if today's efficiency of mass-produced solar panels becomes 2-3 times more efficient and the price falls? Who will need oil and gas in such volumes?

I don't really think that nuclear is as dangerous as people think it is.

Chernobyl isn't emblematic of nuclear energy, although it's something a lot of people think about on this topic. Keep in mind, what happened in Chernobyl was during the Soviet era with low safety standards and ancient technology. We're light years ahead of what we had then, and I don't think the small risk of accidents outweigh the amount of energy you can produce. Realistically, nuclear waste is the only downside, but oil production produces a lot of waste within itself. Oil results in larger CO2 emissions as well, so the trade off isn't that bad.

DrBeer

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Quote from: stompix on October 11, 2021, 04:07:37 PM

Quote from: DrBeer on October 11, 2021, 02:52:53 PM

Quote from: stompix on October 10, 2021, 10:56:23 AM

Quote from: DrBeer on October 10, 2021, 07:37:06 AM

On the other hand, over the past decades there has been a huge number of very serious accidents

~

It's easy to scoff when you don't know the information

I'll throw it around, there will be a desire - you sort it out as it is convenient for you, you will find the details of the accidents - I see you are using the Internet somehow

Yeah, so except 3 of them in 50 years, what's so serious about the rest of them?
....

One catastrophe is enough for me - the Chernobyl disaster. I would like to wish you with all my heart that you and your family never crossed paths with this evil ... One such accident is enough for many tens of years, many millions of people to suffer.
And a counter question - give examples of accidents at the facilities of "green energy"?

RealMalatesta

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Quote from: Ucy on October 13, 2021, 04:15:12 AM

So what you are basically saying there is that it's a price increase caused by low supply and high demand.

I dont particularly pay attention to oil price but I notice that people were talking about it with it's consequences on the price of certain products and services. This should remind us that these things are somewhat interconnected just like in nature. If you affect something that have lots of things that are dependent on it, the dependent ones may likely suffers along with what they're depending on. Same thing happens in nature and human society. You don't "negatively" affect those that have lots of others depending on them. Lots of people depend on something important without knowing it. They should be really careful affecting it negatively

Depending on something could be a problem if it is something that is bad for the world. Oil is bad, fuel is bad, it hurts the world we live and that is why we are having so many fires all around the world whenever summer approaches. This is why we can't really have anything that is decent in the world because all the things that profit people are also things that hurt the world as a whole as well.

All in all high demand gets covered with high supply instead of alternatives and that causes the problem. Oil prices reached literally under zero at some point, during the start of the pandemic, and now its high, this could be avoided with alternatives getting more attention so that oil is not the only thing we depend on.

geegaw

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Quote from: dark1234 on October 12, 2021, 04:50:03 PM

World oil prices have moved up this year. From the beginning of the year until now, the world benchmark Brent oil price has risen 53%. The oil price even touched US$ 80/barrel, the highest in the last three years, on Tuesday's trading. For producing countries, the increase in oil prices provides benefits, but it will be difficult for oil importing countries, including in my own country and this is very different from gold even though there is an increase but it does not make it scarce in the market, while fuel oil when there is an increase is usually followed by a lack of supply in the market. market leading to scarcity

Yes, although many countries will be happy with the price of fuel when they are at the top in production and exploitation but it is subtle to realize this is the time when prices should be pushed down to support very low economic levels, people in countries are still facing widespread unemployment, huge psychological crisis and when costs rise like that, governments get the benefits but people in producing and non-producing countries, they also have to buy fuel at a high level. Once not moving down to stable fuel prices, money printing and inflation are very likely to resume a big war

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on October 08, 2021, 12:40:58 PM

Fuel prices have skyrocketed in the past few months, on a worldwide scale. Here in Greece, the average price per liter for 95 Unleaded petrol is €1.75, while for diesel it's approximately €1.45. A huge surge is also expected, in the soon-to-be launched season of heating gas oil, which is expected to start within the next few weeks, with a rumored price of at least €1.10/liter.

I've read that this spike in prices is triggered by an increase in price per barrel, due to oil companies worrying about the pandemic, while their production is limited compared to the higher demand. Have you heard anything relative? What's causing this surge in prices, could it be a one-off thing which lasts a couple of months at most?

What's the average cost of petrol/diesel in your country? Share your thoughts on what exactly is causing this crisis, which is also spiking electricity costs up, increasing the budget for the average household.

Well, the price did increase in my country to a ridiculous price and it last for a month, but later it was decreased again, though it’s still a bit high compared to what it used to be for now. Maybe with time we should hope that everything will get better. This pandemic has really destabilized a lot of things around the world.

A lot of things just keep increasing in price and currencies are facing the risks of inflation because of the government’s steady printing of money. A lot of things are not as it should be, even things you can buy in the market are now too costly and you have to pay more than what you would have paid last year. The only thing that has not increased is how much people being paid at their work place, to match the situation at hand, it’s very bad.

Apes

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The fuel price in my country every year does increase, however for certain types of fuel the government provides price subsidies so the fuel price becomes cheap, and lately the percentage of fuel subsidies has been reduced and some are even not given subsidies at all, this is done so that government finances are not burdened.
related to fuel scarcity in several countries, I believe this is only a problem of hampered distribution supply because in my country there is no effect at all.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on October 08, 2021, 12:40:58 PM

Fuel prices have skyrocketed in the past few months, on a worldwide scale. Here in Greece, the average price per liter for 95 Unleaded petrol is €1.75, while for diesel it's approximately €1.45. A huge surge is also expected, in the soon-to-be launched season of heating gas oil, which is expected to start within the next few weeks, with a rumored price of at least €1.10/liter.

I've read that this spike in prices is triggered by an increase in price per barrel, due to oil companies worrying about the pandemic, while their production is limited compared to the higher demand. Have you heard anything relative? What's causing this surge in prices, could it be a one-off thing which lasts a couple of months at most?

What's the average cost of petrol/diesel in your country? Share your thoughts on what exactly is causing this crisis, which is also spiking electricity costs up, increasing the budget for the average household.

Sources:
https://www.bruegel.org/2021/09/is-europes-gas-and-electricity-price-surge-a-one-off/
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58718148

I'm regard to the bolded part:
So what you are basically saying there is that it's a price increase caused by low supply and high demand.

I dont particularly pay attention to oil price but I notice that people were talking about it with it's consequences on the price of certain products and services. This should remind us that these things are somewhat interconnected just like in nature. If you affect something that have lots of things that are dependent on it, the dependent ones may likely suffers along with what they're depending on. Same thing happens in nature and human society. You don't "negatively" affect those that have lots of others depending on them. Lots of people depend on something important without knowing it. They should be really careful affecting it negatively

tyz

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Quote from: awik p on October 11, 2021, 09:38:28 PM

Quote from: Blawpaw on October 11, 2021, 06:28:10 PM

Well, they sure want us to abandon fossil fuels and this all seems to me, an orchestrated move. Fuel prices are doomed to go over the counter as this will be a way to force people to move from fossil fuels onto electric energy-powered vehicles. The problem is that electric energy-powered is not the future. The future of mobility is Hydro.

Oil is a non-renewable fuel, while the need is increasing every year, along with the increase in the human population. Therefore, alternative energy that is environmentally friendly has been developed, including electricity, but it cannot be switched immediately, of course it requires a process, it is possible that the fuel will be completely replaced later.

Your analysis may be correct in the long run. But the current situation has nothing to do with a shortage of oil to be available but with the massive cutbacks in production during the Corona crisis. Oil companies completely cut production last year and even stopped the expensive exploration of new wells completely. One remembers only too fondly that in the early summer of 2020, people were even paying money to take oil. So the price of oil was negative for a short time. Now the economy is recovering strongly and production has to be slowly ramped up again, resulting in a shortage. Next year, the situation will calm down again and the price will fall significantly, unless no new unforeseen situations arise.

Argoo

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This is very bad, given that it is fossil fuels that make a big contribution to climate change on our planet. World governments are still doing very little to switch to renewable energy sources and to manufacture cars using electrics and other alternative fuels. It is necessary to give up the consumption of oil and gas altogether, otherwise our civilization will be destroyed.

bittraffic

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The report was that the countries needing fossil fuels didn't secure their prices so now they are buying at spot price. The market price will increase this high because of it and it will not stop because of the demand. I miss the time when we can only buy gas for $0.60/liter. If I only knew the price will blow up this high, I could have bought more for my reserve. I don't travel a lot though because of the curfews though.

bussybuddy

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The management of gasoline prices is to contribute to ensuring the implementation of the target of controlling inflation and stabilizing the market in 2021, supporting people and businesses that are facing difficulties due to the impact of the Covid-19 epidemic.
I think this increase will not stop when production demand is operational, a bad scenario for the economy is waiting for us.

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Quote from: dark1234 on October 12, 2021, 04:50:03 PM

World oil prices have moved up this year. From the beginning of the year until now, the world benchmark Brent oil price has risen 53%. The oil price even touched US$ 80/barrel, the highest in the last three years, on Tuesday's trading. For producing countries, the increase in oil prices provides benefits, but it will be difficult for oil importing countries, including in my own country and this is very different from gold even though there is an increase but it does not make it scarce in the market, while fuel oil when there is an increase is usually followed by a lack of supply in the market. market leading to scarcity

The increase in oil price is beneficial for only a few dictators such as Vladimir Putin and Mohammad Bin Salman Al Saud. Even the population in these countries doesn't get much benefit from the price increase. Along with the oil prices, LNG prices are also increasing (benefitting producers like Russia, Qatar, Australia and Norway). For the oil-importing countries, this is catastrophic. Here in India, the inflation rate is surging because of rising gasoline prices. The trade deficit is also reaching historic highs.

Topic: Fuel prices hitting an eight year high - page 14. (Read 3994 times)