GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :) - page 2056.

jimmothy

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:29:26 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:10:19 AM

Unlike the smartphone which has loads of unique/useful features, Paycoin has no features other than the promise of getting rich quick.

The coin will have useful features, such as escrow, hashspace messaging, time-based contracts, voting and more. None of this is unique, but it's packaged all together to make the coin more useful.

Oh it will? Are you a fortune teller?

My magic Chrystal ball is telling me GAW will do what they've always done and bullshit their way to success without actually doing anything.

GAW couldn't even build their own coin so they had to completely rip off an existing coin, you actually think they will be implementing any bitcoin 2.0 features?

The only way that happens is if paycoin survives long enough for GAW to copy/paste the features from bitcoin.

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:31:40 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:12:58 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:10:49 AM

Yeah, I don't see any built-in security against a 51% attack specifically in the code. But the attack still requires collusion between a majority of prime controllers, and a bad actor(s) can be ejected from the network. All it takes is one prime to call a vote for ejection. So theoretically, GAW (or the collusion group) would have to own 100% of the prime controllers. After the ejection, Orion controllers can bid to become prime, thereby also securing against collusion.

And what if the bad actor is GAW who controls 100% of the prime controllers?

Conspiracy theories abound... doesn't make them real.

You're not understanding my point.

With bitcoin, the network is controlled by whoever owns the most hashrate. Anyone can build ASICS if they have the money.

With paycoin, the network is controlled by whoever owns the most paycoins. GAW premined 95% of those coins and you just have to trust that they are delivered to other people.

One system is built upon trusting math, the other is built upon trusting a serial bullshitter.

jackbox

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 03:38:51 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:35:48 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:28:22 AM

That's pretty strange considering ~11.5m coins haven't been touched in the past 5 days.

GAW doesn't own the customer wallets... they just host them. If 60% are out of their control, then there isn't a possibility of 51% from the primes colluding.

How do I get my private key from ZenCloud?

Just transfer the coins to a wallet on your PC.

suchmoon

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:32:50 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 03:25:00 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:13:10 AM

Can I prove that the prime controllers exist? No. But POS hasn't started yet. Prime controllers don't have anything to do with the network during POW.

Sounds like a hard fork would be needed to put them in place and we have less than 9 hours till the end of POW. Hopefully the network can still function with regular staking until this is implemented. We'll see soon enough.

No hard fork needed. POW just needs to end at the timestamp.

And then what? If the code for Prime Controllers is not there yet how does it get put in place without a hard fork?

suchmoon

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:35:48 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:28:22 AM

That's pretty strange considering ~11.5m coins haven't been touched in the past 5 days.

GAW doesn't own the customer wallets... they just host them. If 60% are out of their control, then there isn't a possibility of 51% from the primes colluding.

How do I get my private key from ZenCloud?

suchmoon

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Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:12:58 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:10:49 AM

Yeah, I don't see any built-in security against a 51% attack specifically in the code. But the attack still requires collusion between a majority of prime controllers, and a bad actor(s) can be ejected from the network. All it takes is one prime to call a vote for ejection. So theoretically, GAW (or the collusion group) would have to own 100% of the prime controllers. After the ejection, Orion controllers can bid to become prime, thereby also securing against collusion.

And what if the bad actor is GAW who controls 100% of the prime controllers?

I'm still puzzled by this whole orion-bidding-prime process. Shouldn't it all be a transparent and cryptographically verifiable process? Otherwise why bother calling it a crypto currency.

In other words, let's say I buy 125k coins on Cryptsy (or maybe my name is Craig). How can I apply to host a Prime controller? This all starts in a few hours, and there doesn't seem to be any concern from anybody (us trolls don't count) that nothing is known about it

puwaha

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Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:28:22 AM

That's pretty strange considering ~11.5m coins haven't been touched in the past 5 days.

GAW doesn't own the customer wallets... they just host them. If 60% are out of their control, then there isn't a possibility of 51% from the primes colluding.

puwaha

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 03:25:00 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:13:10 AM

Can I prove that the prime controllers exist? No. But POS hasn't started yet. Prime controllers don't have anything to do with the network during POW.

Sounds like a hard fork would be needed to put them in place and we have less than 9 hours till the end of POW. Hopefully the network can still function with regular staking until this is implemented. We'll see soon enough.

No hard fork needed. POW just needs to end at the timestamp.

puwaha

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Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:12:58 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:10:49 AM

Yeah, I don't see any built-in security against a 51% attack specifically in the code. But the attack still requires collusion between a majority of prime controllers, and a bad actor(s) can be ejected from the network. All it takes is one prime to call a vote for ejection. So theoretically, GAW (or the collusion group) would have to own 100% of the prime controllers. After the ejection, Orion controllers can bid to become prime, thereby also securing against collusion.

And what if the bad actor is GAW who controls 100% of the prime controllers?

Conspiracy theories abound... doesn't make them real.

puwaha

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Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 03:10:19 AM

Unlike the smartphone which has loads of unique/useful features, Paycoin has no features other than the promise of getting rich quick.

The coin will have useful features, such as escrow, hashspace messaging, time-based contracts, voting and more. None of this is unique, but it's packaged all together to make the coin more useful.

Just like when smartphones first came out... there were very few useful "apps". It takes time to develop the ecosystem.

Quote

Can you prove that GAW doesn't own 50/50 prime controllers?

Nope. Can you prove that they do?

Quote

You mean the source code of peercoin which includes absolutely none of the features claimed by GAW?

I think he's refering to the multiple times Josh stated that you will be able to reverse payments, freeze wallets, recover lost btc, all without the private keys. Then again this could have been thrown out the window like everything else in the ever changing pipeline.

I think it would be interesting to recover lost btc from a paycoin wallet.

I don't think any of these features exist yet.

jimmothy

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Found some more interesting bits.

Quote

There are now 6 Primary investors that own Prime controllers. They are:

   A large group of private partners and myself. This was done under a separate company, and provide GAW with Prime controllers to fund it's Hashstakers. GAW will pay the investment group out of it sales of Hashstakers
   One nonprofit
   4 other private investors.

https://archive.today/b7q8o

So 6 people control the entire paycoin network? Sounds to me like there might be 5/50 prime controllers not owned by GAW.

Quote

About 60% of the 12 million coins are going to customers, 40% are going to investors.

https://archive.today/b7q8o

Quote

Well, all customer coins were released last night, all at once.

Even though we knew the market would stabilize, we were a little concerned about what would happen to prices immediately after.

It's been about 12 hours and we have almost fully recovered!

That's pretty amazing when you consider the the bulk of all XPY are now out in the wild.

https://archive.today/2qKXN

That's pretty strange considering ~11.5m coins haven't been touched in the past 5 days.

suchmoon

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:13:10 AM

Can I prove that the prime controllers exist? No. But POS hasn't started yet. Prime controllers don't have anything to do with the network during POW.

Sounds like a hard fork would be needed to put them in place and we have less than 9 hours till the end of POW. Hopefully the network can still function with regular staking until this is implemented. We'll see soon enough.

puwaha

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 02:57:00 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:48:50 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 01:44:12 AM

I know the whitepaper, that's now what I asked though. You know very well that the whitepaper is almost useless here because the coin is completely different from what was described in it.

So is that functionality in the current source? Or is there going to be another ninja hard fork and relaunch within the next ~10 hours?

And if the latter, then of course there are other questions, given how poor the quality of the initial code/launch was, but I'll wait until I see it in action.

It was a rhetorical question on your part, and I tried to allay your concern with what is in the white paper. Nothing more.

I'm not going to debate what has not happened.

You stated that "the prime controllers were already created on Monday the 15th". I asked: "Are you sure? Any evidence of that in the source code? Or how else is that going to work?"

So just to make sure (and this is not rhetorical), which of the following is correct:

a) "the prime controllers were already created on Monday the 15th"
b) "has not happened."

Can I prove that the prime controllers exist? No. But POS hasn't started yet. Prime controllers don't have anything to do with the network during POW.

jimmothy

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 03:10:49 AM

Yeah, I don't see any built-in security against a 51% attack specifically in the code. But the attack still requires collusion between a majority of prime controllers, and a bad actor(s) can be ejected from the network. All it takes is one prime to call a vote for ejection. So theoretically, GAW (or the collusion group) would have to own 100% of the prime controllers. After the ejection, Orion controllers can bid to become prime, thereby also securing against collusion.

And what if the bad actor is GAW who controls 100% of the prime controllers?

puwaha

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 02:51:07 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:45:30 AM

A large amount of the initial 12.5million coins are staked in the prime controllers. This weight is what gives these special nodes authority for the transaction's authenticity. There are 50 prime controllers staked with at least 1% of all available coins. The rest of the coins are now in the hands of the former hashlet owners' wallets, and the last little bit are being mined now... and floating around on exchanges.

So... no... GAW doesn't control 96% of the hashrate or the stake rate.

It sounds to me that you just described a 51+ scenario. They control at least 50% in Prime Controllers and then a significant amount in ZenCloud accounts.

Yeah, I don't see any built-in security against a 51% attack specifically in the code. But the attack still requires collusion between a majority of prime controllers, and a bad actor(s) can be ejected from the network. All it takes is one prime to call a vote for ejection. So theoretically, GAW (or the collusion group) would have to own 100% of the prime controllers. After the ejection, Orion controllers can bid to become prime, thereby also securing against collusion.

jimmothy

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:54:57 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 02:03:03 AM

Sounds incredibly pointless.

Paycoin is like a cryptocurrency for people who don't like or understand cryptocurrency.

And that's the market GAW is going after. Most people don't know, don't care, or just don't understand cryptocurrency. But if you give them an easy way to use it, they will. It's just like smartphones. Before they were around, people didn't even know what they were missing. Now, you'd be hard pressed to take it away from the masses.

This is where GAW wants to go with paycoin. Get it out there... make it easy to use, and understanding and adoption comes hard and fast.

It only ends up being good for bitcoin as well, and lends legitimacy to it as an alternative. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

Visa and Mastercard live successfully side-by-side, I don't see why bitcoin and xyz coin can't do the same.

Unlike the smartphone which has loads of unique/useful features, Paycoin has no features other than the promise of getting rich quick.

Quote

A large amount of the initial 12.5million coins are staked in the prime controllers. This weight is what gives these special nodes authority for the transaction's authenticity. There are 50 prime controllers staked with at least 1% of all available coins. The rest of the coins are now in the hands of the former hashlet owners' wallets, and the last little bit are being mined now... and floating around on exchanges.

So... no... GAW doesn't control 96% of the hashrate or the stake rate.

Can you prove that GAW doesn't own 50/50 prime controllers?

Quote

So prime controllers basically means Visa/Mastercard/Paypal where Gaw can change/block/reverse any transaction they chose, they will control the ponzicoin blcokchain....that's not crypto

Or... you could go read the source code and point to where this is possible?

You mean the source code of peercoin which includes absolutely none of the features claimed by GAW?

I think he's refering to the multiple times Josh stated that you will be able to reverse payments, freeze wallets, recover lost btc, all without the private keys. Then again this could have been thrown out the window like everything else in the ever changing pipeline.

puwaha

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 02:10:32 AM

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:06:47 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on December 19, 2014, 09:51:06 PM

Another question - which merchants are exclusive to Paycoin? I think I missed that announcement if there was one.

Is that even necessary? What would that prove?

A retailer is going to want to make it easy for anyone (including paycoin holders) to buy their crap. Why would they not accept bitcoin too?

Why are you answering a question with a question? Grin

That was based on a quote from the CEO's announcement. An important one, illustrating how Paycoin is better than any other coin since it's accepted everywhere where Bitcoin is accepted, PLUS those exclusive merchants.

Are you implying that he maybe lied? There are no exclusive Paycoin merchants? Shocking Shocked

Ah, I see what you are asking about. I didn't see that part. You are right. There wasn't any announcement of paycoin exclusive merchants, but he did say that there are some.

Paybase hasn't even launched yet, so it might be a little premature to announce exclusive merchants when paybase isn't even live yet.

suchmoon

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Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:48:50 AM

Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 01:44:12 AM

I know the whitepaper, that's now what I asked though. You know very well that the whitepaper is almost useless here because the coin is completely different from what was described in it.

So is that functionality in the current source? Or is there going to be another ninja hard fork and relaunch within the next ~10 hours?

And if the latter, then of course there are other questions, given how poor the quality of the initial code/launch was, but I'll wait until I see it in action.

It was a rhetorical question on your part, and I tried to allay your concern with what is in the white paper. Nothing more.

I'm not going to debate what has not happened.

You stated that "the prime controllers were already created on Monday the 15th". I asked: "Are you sure? Any evidence of that in the source code? Or how else is that going to work?"

So just to make sure (and this is not rhetorical), which of the following is correct:

a) "the prime controllers were already created on Monday the 15th"
b) "has not happened."

puwaha

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Quote from: jimmothy on December 20, 2014, 02:03:03 AM

Sounds incredibly pointless.

Paycoin is like a cryptocurrency for people who don't like or understand cryptocurrency.

And that's the market GAW is going after. Most people don't know, don't care, or just don't understand cryptocurrency. But if you give them an easy way to use it, they will. It's just like smartphones. Before they were around, people didn't even know what they were missing. Now, you'd be hard pressed to take it away from the masses.

This is where GAW wants to go with paycoin. Get it out there... make it easy to use, and understanding and adoption comes hard and fast.

It only ends up being good for bitcoin as well, and lends legitimacy to it as an alternative. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

Visa and Mastercard live successfully side-by-side, I don't see why bitcoin and xyz coin can't do the same.

suchmoon

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Activity: 3654

Merit: 8909

https://bpip.org

Quote from: puwaha on December 20, 2014, 02:45:30 AM

A large amount of the initial 12.5million coins are staked in the prime controllers. This weight is what gives these special nodes authority for the transaction's authenticity. There are 50 prime controllers staked with at least 1% of all available coins. The rest of the coins are now in the hands of the former hashlet owners' wallets, and the last little bit are being mined now... and floating around on exchanges.

So... no... GAW doesn't control 96% of the hashrate or the stake rate.

It sounds to me that you just described a 51+ scenario. They control at least 50% in Prime Controllers and then a significant amount in ZenCloud accounts.

puwaha

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Quote from: suchmoon on December 20, 2014, 01:44:12 AM

I know the whitepaper, that's now what I asked though. You know very well that the whitepaper is almost useless here because the coin is completely different from what was described in it.

So is that functionality in the current source? Or is there going to be another ninja hard fork and relaunch within the next ~10 hours?

And if the latter, then of course there are other questions, given how poor the quality of the initial code/launch was, but I'll wait until I see it in action.

It was a rhetorical question on your part, and I tried to allay your concern with what is in the white paper. Nothing more.

I'm not going to debate what has not happened.

Topic: GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :) - page 2056. (Read 3377922 times)