Topic: GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :) - page 2220. (Read 3377790 times)

I am familiar with the Howey case (and the Shavers case, which is where it came up). Buying a non-Zen solo hashlet is a different thing because what you're primarily buying is processing time. It's like buying time on a mainframe back in the 80s. Although there might be a small amount of maintenance, the computer is already set up, and you're renting timeslices on an item. In Howey and Shavers, the investors were primarily buying the efforts of people (harvesting, selling, etc.). Here, you're buying time with items.

Now, ZenPool is different because he's admitted that he does other activities that create the profits enjoyed by those "mining" the pool. That's where the Howey test scores big. For the other solos, I don't see it.

on the 19th paybase will launch and josh will say you cant trade paycoin for btc yet but please stake

I have been reading everything Gaza writes recently and it struck me. He absolutely believes everything he is saying!
I had an old girl friend like this once.
Nothing she said was ever true so some people thought she was a pathological liar,
however she stated that they were completely wrong,
she just "changed her mind a lot".

The shills over on HT have gotten out of hand, they are desperate to keep prices pumped up while they bail out of their remaining investments.
For most of them that means paycoin launch and BTC conversion enabled so they can cash out against the "WALL".
The non-morons have all caught on now and they are pushing each other to greater and greater heights of idiocy trying to pump up the crapcoin in hopes of getting out with a profit.

Just in case someone wants to argue:

https://hashtalk.org/topic/20296


Edited 2020-11-28 to fix a broken image

As far as Paycoin (1) is concerned, I think its different than Bitcoin because of the staking and revenue from staking features which make it a security.  Bitcoin, Litecoin etc. do not have these profit generating features.

As far as cloud mining goes, read the Howey case I have cited both over at HT and here.  In that case, the argument was that they were just renting an orchard and orchard management time from the promoter.  The Supreme Court was not impressed with that argument and stated it very clearly: any interest in profits gained through purchase (without participation in the business) is a security.  Note that it would not be a security if the machines were owned by the buyer of the cloud mining service OR if there was participation such as in choosing pools.

I don't think it's a financial instrument because crypto isn't "money" from a regulatory standpoint.

If I'm a physicist working on a hard problem that requires data from a hard problem I've already solved, so I rent space on a huge mainframe to do the calculations, is that like a CD or a bond? No, because that data isn't currency. It's an asset with value, but it's not currency. That's like saying planting seeds is like a CD or a bond. Or making widgets.

The more I think about it, the more (3) kind of stands out. There you're not renting anything because "mining" ZenPool involves things like taking money from renting hashpower to other companies, which pretty much sounds like a security under the scope of the SEC.

A bond is a security.

A CD is a bank deposit regulated even more than a security.  I think GAW would be better off staking it as a security versus a bank deposit.

Because people want to believe the lies. I was in a merchant account (credit card) sales business many years back (before PayPal existed). The competitors lied to people about the leases for credit card terminals being cancellable. We told the potential customers the truth but they argued with us and said so and so said they can be canceled. Well, low and behold they went with so and so and then later call us up and say so and so lied to me I cannot cancel the lease. I would say no duh, what the fuck do you want me to do about it? You bought the service from so and so, they lied to you just like I told you they were but you argued with me and told me I was wrong. No go fuck off you stupid shit. Of course, so and so is very rich now and I was shortly thereafter out of business. The moral of the story; liars do well in business. Honest people go out of business. Josh is a good liar and the people want to believe the lies because they are greedy fucks and eat the shit he spews right out of his mouth. They sort of deserve what is coming to them.

Plea for rational discourse regarding GAW...

I am **really** worried that GAW is going to impode, explode and otherwise send shrapnel every which way.  I know it is a blast to poke fun at some of the crazy things that are happening over there; the lies, mis-steps, religious-like ferver, etc.  I have impugned GAW several times harshly.

However, please consider that when GAW does go bust, it might take cryptocurrency with it for a long time.  Mt. Gox took about $300 per BTC out of the price of BTC.  The Chinese government probably did the rest.  Do we really need another major disaster in cryptocurrency?  Maybe it is for the best that GAW is moving to Paycoin so at least we can say "They had nothing to do with BTC"... but you know the media won't understand the distinction and BTC will be set back years possibly.

If the SEC gets involved, it is very likely that ICOs and cloud mining could be outlawed completely.  Maybe a good thing but it will have major impacts.

What I would like folks to consider is that we might still be able to have some kind of an impact on what is going on over there; but regardless what happens over there will impact us in some way.

Last point is regarding the religious stuff. 

Early in my career I worked with a top private equity firm on an investment that was being made in a technology company.  This company, we found out, was essentially a cult.  The 20 or so employees were all members of a church, headed by the President.  They all lived together in a large home, that also served as the church itself.  The members/employees gave up their life savings to the President/church/company.  It was creepy and made us seriously rethink the investment thesis.  We did the deal with great trepidation.    The cult members were so devoted that they would work 20 hour days, and there were no arguments over shares or profits.  They lacked the greed that often splits apart hugely successful small companies.  Five years or so later, the cult-company had quadrupled its EBITDA (net profits measure) and was sold for many times what we paid for it. 

I am not saying that the church connection is entirely irrelevant - it explains why some are so trusting without any objective bases and so might be a reason to largely disregard the litany of those who would elevate Josh to godlike (or Steve Jobs - like) status.  Just keep it in perspective.

I don't know if it's a security as per SEC, but it is definitely a financial product such as a CD or a bond. The CEO confirmed this in his usual non-committal way when someone suggested that on HT. Nothing to do with hardware/software, just like your bank deposit is not about hardware/software.

Why do hashtalkers want to 'kill us' and they call us trolls?

https://hashtalk.org/topic/22900/gaw-and-trolls/2

We are trying to help them by uncovering the truth and we are essentially re-insuring that their investment is actually safe.
Why do people on hashtalk care about what we say about gawminers?

well sold off all primes/zen/clever/waffle/multi....Stuck in 9.2 btc got back 18 or so btc and have 80k hp's but i'm not to hopeful on that...but that would be around another 9btc @ 20 a coin...so  least i'm totally out from this nightmare with double my btc maybe triple if crapcoin actually gets converted and i can sell all those...I kept 5 stakers just for the hell of it lol doesn't matter if its all useless anyways...guess it only pays out if you got in early and i feel bad that all the suckers are gonna get gox'd/bfl'd but oh well if they have that much blind faith there is no stopping them

This is funny. PayCoins can be worthless. Well, no duh! CashTakers may return nothing to you but we will keep the coins locked up for six months. ROFL.

I get (3). That's been on my mind for a while. (1)'s kind of a bigger issue, but there's enough support now for bitcoin not being a security directly subject to SEC regulation that I don't think that's an issue.

How is (2) a SEC-scoped security? You're renting disk space, processing time, and software.

Well their TOS won't protect them from the LAW.

It's called covering your back... Read any corporate ToS where a paid service is being offered and you'll find the same 

If that isn't the biggest red flag you've ever seen.. what is?
Someone should post this on hashtalk.

Told you. Calling CEO a troll doesn't end well

You see the problem here, don't you? I mean you're essentially saying we are profiting from a bubble. If you said "finding new sources of revenue" instead of "upping the prices", this might have a chance of being legit, but we haven't really seen such new sources so far.

I can confirm that the employee working on GAW's case is interested in all of Gaw's info even unrelated to the SEC.
I'm sure they work with other government agencies.