Generating a paper wallet securely - page 3.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Tolosi on November 11, 2019, 05:32:47 AM

-snip- Then I tried to connect my two PC-s via local network - (very complicated in recent Windows 10) and noticed that the BitAddress folder on my desktop was marked as a sharing folder. I did not do this and it is strange and I do not like it.

Try to make a new folder in the same directory where you created "BitAddress" folder and check if that folder is also marked as sharing folder.
If it is, then it's your desktop or the directory where it is located is the one that's shared ('coz anything in it will be shared too).

I've also downloaded the source (https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org), extracted the zip but it isn't shared.

Tolosi

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I just notices something strange on BitAddress paper wallet generator - I downloaded complete page on my computer desktop and it works fine. No coins were sent to generated addresses - it was just a test in case I need it later to generate some address while off-line. Then I tried to connect my two PC-s via local network - (very complicated in recent Windows 10) and noticed that the BitAddress folder on my desktop was marked as a sharing folder. I did not do this and it is strange and I do not like it.
Maybe somebody could explain this.

LoyceV

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Quote from: Dabs on November 08, 2019, 12:20:31 PM

I think Loyce did say children's books have lasted decades.

Here's an example from 1947, back when manual type writers probably used ink and had much lower quality than a modern laser printer.

Dabs

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I'm thinking it's much better to protect the paper wallet with something else, like those fire and water resistant envelopes. That you then place in a safe, which can be fire resistant as well.

And if the safe is stored in a separate location or surrounded by mud, earth, cement, or ... like you make it's own area...

I think Loyce did say children's books have lasted decades.

So I type fire envelope in amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fire+envelope

One of the first results:
https://www.amazon.com/Fireproof-MoKo-Resistant-Valuables-Protection/dp/B076V8C5J9/
https://www.amazon.com/COLCASE-Fireproof-Non-Itchy-Resistant-Documents/dp/B074S2H4H9/

Quote

Fire proof water resistant - made of high quality silicone coated retardants-fiberglass exterior and aluminum foil interior, which can withstand temperatures as high as 1000°c (about 1832°f), so you can keep all your valuables 100 percentage safe.

So, my advice, print two or three physical hard copies of your paper wallet and stick them in that fire proof bag. No need for fancy paper, but of course you can also do that.

DaveF

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On a side note. I have used and do use Revlar paper for paper wallets among other things:

https://relyco.com/products/durable-papers/revlar-waterproof-paper/

From their marketing:

Quote

REVLAR paper is waterproof, tear-proof, durable, impervious to grease and chemicals, weatherproof and specifically designed to withstand high/low temperature fluctuations. It is an extremely tough product; some have even called it “virtually indestructible” after running it through various durability tests. Yet, it can still be scored, punched or die-cut, which makes it versatile.

I do have some of their laser printer paper.

If you are US based and want to send me shipping I'll get you 2 or 3 pieces.

If you want it in a flat envelope that has a piece of cardboard in it to keep it rigid it's $4.06 to ship
If you want it in a flat envelope that is not rigid I can get it to you for $1.25 but if USPS bends it and leaves a crease don't complain to me.

It's Friday, Monday is a postal holiday so anyone who wants some please get to me before Tuesday.

PM me and I'll get back to you with a payment address.
Not going to fill out customs paperwork so US only.

Just cleaning up and figure some people might want some.
Laser only. You try to use an inkjet it's going to be a blurry mess.

-Dave

Dabs

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Paper wallet = also other materials like wood, plastic, metal, bricks, stone. The intention being that it is not in any electronic form but it some physical form, either hand written or printed or engraved or stamped.

If you get a sharpie (or other permanent marker) and write legibly on some thick card, I would consider that a "paper wallet".

If you need to print it, I'd recommend a laser printer not an inkjet. Laser printed stuff last longer and don't smear or smudge when exposed to moisture or water.

Quote from: Kprawn on November 07, 2019, 12:57:18 PM

My tried and tested way to do this was to buy a old second hand computer and printer and to use that to create loads of paper wallets and then
to physically destroy it after you are done with it.

Depending on how much it cost, I wouldn't go that far. It can still be cleaned and erased. I'd actually reformat the thing first because used computers usually have loads of bloatware installed. If you have the time, I'd erase the drive first, repartition, reformat, install OS offline, probably run full disk encryption too while you're at it.

Dice is a little bit more fun and cheaper. But old hardware is fun to tinker with too.

LoyceV

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Quote from: aundroid on November 03, 2019, 01:42:00 PM

A fully air-gapped pc would be physically completely separated from other networks.

For the truely paranoid (which is what you should be when creating private keys!), you may want to disconnect your speakers too. See Black Hat Researcher Shows Why Air Gaps Won't Protect Your Data.

And close your curtains Tongue

Kprawn

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My tried and tested way to do this was to buy a old second hand computer and printer and to use that to create loads of paper wallets and then

to physically destroy it after you are done with it. We have a lot of Pawn shops in town, where they sell old second hand computers and printers

and I pick up these computers for just a few dollars. A lot less than what people are paying for hardware wallets. Just copy the scripts from the

Github page and run it offline. Wink

ABCbits

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Quote from: Macadonian on November 05, 2019, 01:54:34 PM

Not true. Only those that are generated by programs and wallet software usually have QR codes but many paper wallets are generated by copying the seed or private key. So to say that almost all paper wallets have a QR code would be inaccurate without any statistics to back it up it would be safer to assume that only a small amount of paper wallets have QR codes unless they are commercially developed.

I get the point, but from what i've seen,
1. People usually assume paper wallet always have QR code
2. Paper which contain seed/private key text (whether it's printed or written by hand), usually isn't called paper wallet.

funsponge

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Quote from: Krislaw on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 AM

There's no way you can generate a paper wallet offline.
The only way is to use an old computer, generate the paper wallet and print it on an old printer that has no access to Wi-Fi. Or why not get an Hardware wallet and store all your funds there and bury the wallet seeds. Since Y'all trust hardware wallets alot.

......

Ok ignoring the second half of your post which clearly explains a offline wallet but it is possible to generate a wallet using Bitcoin core on a offline computer and transfer the private key to a piece of paper. Generating a paper wallet should only be done offline so saying that it cant be generated offline is just false.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Krislaw on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 AM

There's no way you can generate a paper wallet offline. -snip-

Uhh, the next sentence in your post is defined as "offline".

Quote from: Krislaw

Or why not get an Hardware wallet and store all your funds there and bury the wallet seeds. Since Y'all trust hardware wallets alot.

The one you suggested to bury can be used as the paper wallet, you can throw away the hardware wallet after.
The point is, paper wallets can only be used exclusively for cold storage, no outgoing transactions until you decided to.
Hardware wallets are mainly "hot wallet" where you can spend your bitcoins without exposing your keys to the net (some use it for cold storage though).

ABCbits

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 04, 2019, 05:42:09 PM

Quote from: ABCbits on November 04, 2019, 02:19:22 PM

Clever idea, but i wouldn't call it paper wallet since paper wallet usually have QR code which contain your private key.

Is there a "formal" definition? I would call any set up where the means to spend the bitcoin are solely stored on a piece of paper a "paper wallet". Doesn't really make much difference if the information is stored as a seed, a seed phrase, a private key, a QR code - it all leads to the same end result: Import to an electronic wallet and spend the coins.

It's true that there aren't any formal definition of paper wallet, but it doesn't change the fact that almost all paper wallet have QR Code,

Krislaw

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There's no way you can generate a paper wallet offline.
The only way is to use an old computer, generate the paper wallet and print it on an old printer that has no access to Wi-Fi. Or why not get an Hardware wallet and store all your funds there and bury the wallet seeds. Since Y'all trust hardware wallets alot.

Macadonian

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Quote from: ABCbits on November 05, 2019, 01:18:22 PM

It's true that there aren't any formal definition of paper wallet, but it doesn't change the fact that almost all paper wallet have QR Code,

Not true. Only those that are generated by programs and wallet software usually have QR codes but many paper wallets are generated by copying the seed or private key. So to say that almost all paper wallets have a QR code would be inaccurate without any statistics to back it up it would be safer to assume that only a small amount of paper wallets have QR codes unless they are commercially developed.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ABCbits on November 04, 2019, 02:19:22 PM

Clever idea, but i wouldn't call it paper wallet since paper wallet usually have QR code which contain your private key.

Is there a "formal" definition? I would call any set up where the means to spend the bitcoin are solely stored on a piece of paper a "paper wallet". Doesn't really make much difference if the information is stored as a seed, a seed phrase, a private key, a QR code - it all leads to the same end result: Import to an electronic wallet and spend the coins.

Quote from: bitmover on November 04, 2019, 05:25:56 PM

You could just take a picture of the public addresses qr codes

Of course. I forgot that iancoleman.io will also generate QR codes for you, although I guess you could also have downloaded a second site such as bitaddress.org and plugged the private key you generated from iancoleman.io in there. You are of course right that using QR codes is the best option for avoiding errors and also avoiding accidentally spreading malware via USB drives or other removable media.

ABCbits

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 04, 2019, 01:07:13 PM

As bitmover says, you want to use the oldest printer you can get your hands on, definitely one without WiFi capabilities. Older printers have very limited amounts of RAM, which will be cleared of all data within a few minutes of losing power. Newer printers, however, have their own hard drives which will often store a record of the last x number of documents printed and allow you to print them again, so as you say, if using a newer device you either have to wipe the printer's memory or destroy it.

Using one without wireless connection should be good enough. But there's no guarantee old printer don't have non-volatile memory, unless you managed to find technical specification of your printer.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 04, 2019, 01:07:13 PM

You could do the whole thing without a printer at all, for example by downloading https://iancoleman.io/bip39/, running it offline, flipping a coin 256 times, entering the entropy, writing down the seed phrase and treating that as your paper wallet, and either (carefully!) copying the address by hand or transferring it on a USB stick to a live device to transfer coins to.

Clever idea, but i wouldn't call it paper wallet since paper wallet usually have QR code which contain your private key.

bitmover

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 04, 2019, 01:07:13 PM

You could do the whole thing without a printer at all, for example by downloading https://iancoleman.io/bip39/, running it offline, flipping a coin 256 times, entering the entropy, writing down the seed phrase and treating that as your paper wallet, and either (carefully!) copying the address by hand or transferring it on a USB stick to a live device to transfer coins to.

I always thought like this. A seed in a piece of paper is a paper wallet

Imo there is no need to use a printer or even to copy paste addresses. You could just take a picture of the public addresses qr codes . When you want to spend, you just insert your seed in Electrum or any other software.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: charlie137 on November 04, 2019, 03:27:25 AM

after that you also need to wipe printer cache Grin

As bitmover says, you want to use the oldest printer you can get your hands on, definitely one without WiFi capabilities. Older printers have very limited amounts of RAM, which will be cleared of all data within a few minutes of losing power. Newer printers, however, have their own hard drives which will often store a record of the last x number of documents printed and allow you to print them again, so as you say, if using a newer device you either have to wipe the printer's memory or destroy it.

You could do the whole thing without a printer at all, for example by downloading https://iancoleman.io/bip39/, running it offline, flipping a coin 256 times, entering the entropy, writing down the seed phrase and treating that as your paper wallet, and either (carefully!) copying the address by hand or transferring it on a USB stick to a live device to transfer coins to.

1Referee

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Quote from: ?? on ??

But I always remember a few messages from people here, if you want to store your bitcoin in large quantities, then choose a wallet that you believe is safe and never store it in one wallet because if you lose then all your bitcoins will be lost.

I think you're mixing up wallets and addresses. Wallets are clients such as Bitcoin Core and Electrum, while an address can be generated by any wallet. It's not necessarily so that people are recommended to use different wallets to 'store' their coins, but more so that people should spread their coins amongst various addresses.

Important factor is that whenever you download a client, you have to make sure it's from the main source only, and to verify the signatures provided. Unfortunately, most newbies and even some people who've been here for a long time don't verify the signatures, either because they don't know that it's important, or they don't know how to do so.

With all that in mind, it once again points out the importance of hardware wallets as these tools provide easy and safe storage without requiring too much knowledge to use.

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Quote from: DaveF on November 03, 2019, 01:22:39 PM

Depends on how paranoid you want to be.
You say you are not a tech guy, but are you good enough to remove a drive from a PC and put in a new one.
Or, at least remove and destroy the drive?

You could get a copy of the paper wallet generator on an online PC and put it on a USB stick.
Bring it to a PC that is not online (no wi-fi no wired network connected)

Run the app
Generate wallet.
Print wallet.

Destroy both the usb stick and drive in the PC.

Done.

The above method is overkill, but just about foolproof.

If you have some more ability, then running DBAN to wipe the drive is just about as good.

You can also get some hardware wallets and do it that way.

https://opendime.com/

It generates an address. And until you punch the hole nobody in any way get to the private key.

-Dave

after that you also need to wipe printer cache Grin

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