George Soros and Bezos have paid almost zero taxes - page 6.

jackg

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Quote from: Bttzed03 on June 15, 2021, 11:39:50 PM

Quote from: jackg on June 14, 2021, 06:25:35 AM

This is a problem the world seems to be dealing with as countries don't want to move their wealthy people to other countries that have less laws

It's not necessarily less laws but laws that offer more tax incentives or lower tax rates.

I kinda meant laws. You can control/police someone more easily if they live in your country.

Some areas like Scandinavia have done well to police online webservices like amazon (by banning some of their operations - example below) but they still don't have much control other than completely blocking them or completely allowing them. I think the US could directly pass laws on amazon's working conditions too for example.

Example - Iceland and Sweden require a democratic union to exist for a company that takes on employees there. Amazon don't want to have to deal with this and thus have to rely on other countries' distribution centres and postal systems in the nordics.

If bezos moved amazon to the Netherlands and started allowing cannabis to be sold internationally, it'd be more difficult and delayed to try to ban this than if it was still headquartered in the US.

Someone mentioned a wealth tax not working in France and that was probably because people can just hop country within Europe and kinda internationally too.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Bttzed03 on June 15, 2021, 11:39:50 PM

Elon's tax advisor isn't doing a good job Grin

That may be because he got most of his income in the form of salary or short term capital gains, rather than long term capital gains. Anyway, I would still say that it looks as if Elon hasn't used the loopholes that were used by the other millionaires. Forget about the "True tax rate" that is given in the chart. I understand that no one needs to pay tax on gains, unless they are realized. Here is the tax paid on realized income:

Warren Buffet: 18.96%
Jeff Bezos: 23.06%
Michael Bloomberg: 2.92%
Elon Musk: 29.93%

It can be seen that Buffet and Bloomberg paid a rate that is even below the long term capital gains tax. So obviously they have made use of loopholes. In Bloomberg's case, I am intrigued by the extremely low rate. I am not sure what sort of loophole he used.

Bttzed03

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Do we really think there are still loopholes in the tax laws? These were crafted, deliberated/debated/discussed for hours and hours, then probably revised through the years right? These are not loopholes now IMO but were intentionally placed there by politicians that would probably benefit from the same laws.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 14, 2021, 06:18:20 AM

Elon's tax advisor isn't doing a good job Grin

Quote from: jackg on June 14, 2021, 06:25:35 AM

This is a priblem the world seems to be dealing with as countries don't want to move their wealthy people to other countries that have less laws

It's not necessarily less laws but laws that offer more tax incentives or lower tax rates.

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Quote from: just_Alice on June 15, 2021, 07:37:32 PM

As I understand, you're talking strictly about wealth tax here, right? On the one hand, yes, it seems somewhat unfair and even strange that the richest men in the world pay fewer taxes in % than average people. But on the other hand, they bring huge money from the business they create in the form of income taxes, as their companies are still obliged to pay taxes. In addition, they create thousands of working places, reducing the unemployment level and, thus, have a rather positive effect on the economy.

The question is not only regarding the wealth tax (in the US, they don't have the wealth tax anyway). From the table, it looks like the billionaires have used various legal avenues to avoid paying the income tax and capital gains tax. Else how can you explain Bloomberg paying a tax of $292 million on a realized income of $10 billion? They are using various loopholes that suits them. And the Biden administration just want to increase tax rates to the right, left and center, without removing these loopholes. That means that the billionaires will continue to avoid paying taxes, and at the same time those who are in the upper middle class will see an increase in their tax liabilities.

Darker45

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This is a sad reality, and this is happening not just in the US but also in most countries as well. If the wealthy can do this in the US where the IRS is supposedly functioning pretty well, it could be more easily done in other countries, especially developing ones, where the rich people are always above the law.

The advantage of these wealthy few is that they could hire the best lawyers and accountants who could easily exploit the law, particularly the shortcomings and imperfections thereof, in their favor.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on June 15, 2021, 12:46:04 PM

This looks like a t top list of criminals and interesting thing that most of them hate Bitcoin, and we can include Elon Musk there because he keeps trying to manipulate price.
Just look at Warren Buffet who paid only 0.1% true tax rate and situation is similar with his 97 years old partner and Bitcoin hater Charlie Munger.
What about Bill Gates who also avoids paying taxes with his Gates Foundation who allegedly is trying to help people while Bill is playing world scientist and doctor.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 14, 2021, 06:18:20 AM

If people still believe in Biden and his stupid spending plans, then the future looks hopeless for the United States.

That mans is such a joke and he will probably be remembered as worse American puppet president in history, he is increasing taxes like crazy and most recent thing he said is new 15% global tax for all world.
There is no reason for people to trust this crooked dirty politicians, billionaires and their fiat system when we have invention like Bitcoin.

It's what they do. They are proud to say that secret to wealth is learning how taxes work. Trump also did say he evade tax. This is why there is going to be transparency soon when this CBDC is going to be used. I guess by that time, there will be younger millionaires because Musk or Bessos won't be able to stop someone that's small to become bigger like them.

just_Alice

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As I understand, you're talking strictly about wealth tax here, right? On the one hand, yes, it seems somewhat unfair and even strange that the richest men in the world pay fewer taxes in % than average people. But on the other hand, they bring huge money from the business they create in the form of income taxes, as their companies are still obliged to pay taxes. In addition, they create thousands of working places, reducing the unemployment level and, thus, have a rather positive effect on the economy.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: BrewMaster on June 15, 2021, 12:04:14 PM

if there were loopholes then i would agree, anyone else who is wise enough could have used them too. but the problem is that there is no loophole, it is the tax law that lets them get away with it. the same law that they have put there to benefit them! compare the tax laws of today with tax laws of 1980 for example and you'll see how over the years the same wealthy people have inserted favorable laws silently Wink

The exemptions need to be done away with. If needed, then the tax rates can be reduced. But the exemptions make tax calculation very complicated and it results in some people paying disproportionately higher amount of tax and some others paying almost nothing.

BTW, the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell as usual has gone in to ballistic mode regarding the tax leaks. He wants those who are responsible to be "hunted down and thrown into jail". I don't understand this over-reaction from the GOP. If you check the list of billionaires, 95% of them are left liberal. Their political affiliation ranges from moderate-left (Warren Buffett, Alice Walton.etc), to far-left (Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg.etc), with a considerable section being rabidly left (Jack Dorsey, Sergey Brin.etc).

I don't understand what the GOP is going to gain by supporting these left-wing billionaires. Times have changed and white working class make up the core support group for the Republican Party. Rather than siding with them, leaders such as McConnell are siding with the billionaires who never support the GOP.

dkbit98

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This looks like a t top list of criminals and interesting thing that most of them hate Bitcoin, and we can include Elon Musk there because he keeps trying to manipulate price.
Just look at Warren Buffet who paid only 0.1% true tax rate and situation is similar with his 97 years old partner and Bitcoin hater Charlie Munger.
What about Bill Gates who also avoids paying taxes with his Gates Foundation who allegedly is trying to help people while Bill is playing world scientist and doctor.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 14, 2021, 06:18:20 AM

If people still believe in Biden and his stupid spending plans, then the future looks hopeless for the United States.

That mans is such a joke and he will probably be remembered as worse American puppet president in history, he is increasing taxes like crazy and most recent thing he said is new 15% global tax for all world.
There is no reason for people to trust this crooked dirty politicians, billionaires and their fiat system when we have invention like Bitcoin.

BrewMaster

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on June 14, 2021, 03:27:51 PM

If the super-rich can find loopholes in the tax code or other methods in order to pay less taxes, good for them.

if there were loopholes then i would agree, anyone else who is wise enough could have used them too. but the problem is that there is no loophole, it is the tax law that lets them get away with it. the same law that they have put there to benefit them! compare the tax laws of today with tax laws of 1980 for example and you'll see how over the years the same wealthy people have inserted favorable laws silently Wink

swiftbits

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I guess that's how things work. You can experience it first hand on a job; people in a higher position contribute less on projects, just giving most if not all the tasks to their low position employee. they make their money work for them.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: stompix on June 15, 2021, 09:35:58 AM

And when he sells those he will pay tax, right? So what has he avoided?
Exactly what I've said, you're looking at all this without trying to analyze the situation one step further, you show a general situation and you draw a conclusion before it is even finalized. What if those plots fall by 50% next year? Why should have paid taxes for losses?
~~~

In this case, the total purchase price for the 10 plots is $10 million, and the selling price is also $10 million. So in the end, the individual pays zero taxes, since the capital gains amount to $0. But it will be unfair to say that only the super-rich can do this. For example, I am using this strategy (with stocks, and not with real estate) for the last one decade to avoid paying any capital gains tax (here in India, long term capital gains up to a certain limit is exempted from tax). One negative that I could foresee is that people like me may face financial emergencies, and may need to sell stocks that are up by 100% or 200%. The super-rich may have enough liquid cash in their hand, to take care of these emergencies. So they don't need to sell such stocks.

aurora

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cause they employ tons of people. make them pay taxes and they wont hire as much

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Quote from: icopress on June 14, 2021, 02:58:34 PM

Perfectly said ... in my opinion, in this discussion, people forgot to mention donations, because this is exactly the option when you play with the tax system and get public approval. I'm pretty sure that the article that the OP refers to misses this aspect, so the figures of taxes paid by these guys may differ significantly from reality (charity is actually one of the forms of taxes).

There's a limit to how much you can write off in your taxes through donations although it is a pretty big number and the remaining balance is carried on to the next year. The reason that they pay zero taxes is because of lobbying.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 14, 2021, 11:21:15 AM

Now comes the interesting part. The investor sells the plots A to J, and he receives a total of $10 million after the sale. Now on this $10 million he needs to pay zero tax, since the losses from plots A and B makes up for the profits from the other plots. And meanwhile, he is still left with $15 million worth of property.

And when he sells those he will pay tax, right? So what has he avoided?
Exactly what I've said, you're looking at all this without trying to analyze the situation one step further, you show a general situation and you draw a conclusion before it is even finalized. What if those plots fall by 50% next year? Why should have paid taxes for losses?

Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 14, 2021, 11:21:15 AM

But it puts the super-rich at an unfair advantage compared to the others.

Unfair? They are putting more money into an investment than others, what's unfair? They might gain more and they might lose more, he gained 5 million but he risked 20 million, the average Joe can invest 5$ in 20 investment funds and do the same! You don't need a full bitcoin, right? Wow, that rich mofo, he bought 20 plots, and look at the price it went up, he took the risk just as the seller took a risk too and end up losing potential gains. If we're taxing unrealized gains probably the next step would be to tax the seller also because look, he could have made 5$ if he hadn't sold!!! Grin

Quote from: Sithara007 on June 14, 2021, 10:23:15 PM

The problem here is that it is near impossible for the middle class to make use of these loopholes. They have been designed in such a way that only the wealthiest of the wealthiest can use them.

Tell me one of those loopholes that only the wealthiest of the wealthiest can use!

Quote from: davis196 on June 15, 2021, 07:45:05 AM

The idiot that made the infographic doesn't know,that taxes are paid for your income,not your wealth gains.

He knows perfectly, but that newspaper is socialist to the core, the article is just one of those "investigations" with the only purpose of propaganda.

davis196

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There's something wrong with that infographic.
The taxes are paid upon their reported income,not their wealth growth.
The idiot that made the infographic doesn't know,that taxes are paid for your income,not your wealth gains.
Income tax and Capital gains tax are very different.
Even if you own assets worth 200B dollars and your reported income is 200 million dollars,you pay income taxes for your income,not your assets.
I don't know about whether of not those ultra rich people are involved into tax evasion schemes,but having 125 million USD yearly income out of 100 billion USD assets doesn't seem normal to me.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on June 14, 2021, 03:27:51 PM

Yep, I agree. And you know what? If the super-rich can find loopholes in the tax code or other methods in order to pay less taxes, good for them. That's not their fault, is it? Wouldn't you or I do the same? I sure as hell know I would, because who wants to willingly give more to the government than they have to? Just because Bezos, Gates, Buffett, and all the rest of them are ultra-wealthy doesn't mean they have to let their wealth trickle down to the less wealthy (if that even happens).

So I bear no grudges whatsoever toward the billionaires who legally pay the minimum amount of tax that they can. I don't begrudge them their wealth either. They've worked hard to get to where they are, and most of them run companies that employ thousands, if not millions, of people.

You still haven't answered my question. My question is, whether these billionaires have the right to call for higher income tax and capital gains tax (fully knowing that they won't be impacted). People like Soros have campaigned for higher taxes for the "rich". How can these people do this, when they themselves are paying almost nothing in taxes?

Check this:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tax-the-ultra-rich-more-george-soros-and-17-other-american-billionaires-urge-2019-06-24

Tax the ultra-rich more, George Soros and 17 other American billionaires urge

How shameless these people are, when they themselves are using all sort of loopholes to avoid paying taxes, and at the same time asking others who are not as wealthy as them (and unable to use these loopholes) to pay a higher rate of tax?

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on June 14, 2021, 03:27:51 PM

Yep, I agree. And you know what? If the super-rich can find loopholes in the tax code or other methods in order to pay less taxes, good for them. That's not their fault, is it? Wouldn't you or I do the same? I sure as hell know I would, because who wants to willingly give more to the government than they have to? Just because Bezos, Gates, Buffett, and all the rest of them are ultra-wealthy doesn't mean they have to let their wealth trickle down to the less wealthy (if that even happens).

So I bear no grudges whatsoever toward the billionaires who legally pay the minimum amount of tax that they can. I don't begrudge them their wealth either. They've worked hard to get to where they are, and most of them run companies that employ thousands, if not millions, of people.

The problem here is that it is near impossible for the middle class to make use of these loopholes. They have been designed in such a way that only the wealthiest of the wealthiest can use them. Biden administration want tax rates to go up for those who earn above $400,000 per year. Obviously the welfare rats are charged up, since they think that the rich are now paying more taxes. That is not the case in reality. Someone who earns $400,000 per year will have $200,000 in hand after taxes, if he is residing in California or Oregon. I would consider such an individual as "upper middle class" rather than "rich". The rich are the ones who earn tens of millions of USD per year. And they don't really care about the income tax or capital gains tax hike, because they pay almost nothing in taxes irrespective of the hike in tax rates.

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Some celebrities, movie stars, musicians, athletes, politicians and dictators of small countries pay similar extravagantly low tax rates. (I think in exchange for pushing woke narratives.)

Quote

Leaked documents reveal how TWELVE world leaders – plus Russian leader's inner circle, British politicians and Lords – hide their millions in tax havens

A host of celebrities, sports stars, British politicians and the global rich are all implicated in the so-called Panama Papers - a leak of 11million files which contain more data than the amount stolen by former CIA contractor Edward Snowden in 2013.

Documents were leaked from one of the world's most secretive companies, Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca, and show how the company has allegedly helped clients launder money, dodge sanctions and evade tax.

Megastars Jackie Chan and Lionel Messi are among the big names accused of using Mossack Fonseca to invest their millions offshore. And the Panama Papers also reveal that the £26million stolen during the Brink's Mat robbery in 1983 may have been channelled into an offshore company set up by the controversial law firm.

Meanwhile, Egypt's former president Hosni Mubarak, Libya's former leader Colonel Gaddafi, Syria's president Bashar al-Assad and Chinese president Xi Jinping are among those alleged to have links to tax havens through families and associates.

Lord Ashcroft, Baroness Pamela Sharples and former Tory MP Michael Mates are the only British politicians who have been named in the data release so far, while several dictators make up the 12 world leaders listed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3521830/Tax-havens-world-s-rich-famous-revealed-huge-data-leak.html

....

The goal of generational wealth in the US has somewhat become an impossibility due to the 40% estate tax (death tax).

I think that many of these famous figures avoid the estate tax through the utilization of offshore tax shelters and loopholes.

The reason politicians and celebrities will never truly support closing these loopholes for the rich. Is they themselves use them.

Most elected officials are super rich and own 5 luxury houses.

Why would they close tax loopholes for the wealthy, on themselves?

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: stompix on June 14, 2021, 06:58:18 AM

I can't really take seriously any paper that has its main category of news labeled "racial justice", it's just another of those attempts to make the rich look bad and that we have to tax them as much s we can so that the new social paradise can be built.

Yep, I agree. And you know what? If the super-rich can find loopholes in the tax code or other methods in order to pay less taxes, good for them. That's not their fault, is it? Wouldn't you or I do the same? I sure as hell know I would, because who wants to willingly give more to the government than they have to? Just because Bezos, Gates, Buffett, and all the rest of them are ultra-wealthy doesn't mean they have to let their wealth trickle down to the less wealthy (if that even happens).

So I bear no grudges whatsoever toward the billionaires who legally pay the minimum amount of tax that they can. I don't begrudge them their wealth either. They've worked hard to get to where they are, and most of them run companies that employ thousands, if not millions, of people.

Topic: George Soros and Bezos have paid almost zero taxes - page 6. (Read 1087 times)