"sturles" on bitcoin-otc will sell 1 bitcoin to new users for paypal. If your account is more than 3 days old, he may sell you more. He is very good at sniffing out scammers though because he has done it for so long.
http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php
Topic: Getting around chargebacks selling BTC via eBay? (Read 1730 times)
Paypal does not protect people against chargebacks for virtual items. DONT DO IT.
anybody selling BTC for paypal is begging to be ripped off, and it reduces everybody's trust in BTC when people do it and then scream afterwards about getting scammed
Hear, hear !! I see a lot of traders wanting to paypal, but Paypal is getting real sticky and seem consistently to side with scammers. I believe the BTC community is better served staing away from such payment methods. 
Hate PayPal and ebay sold goods which buyers say they never got!
That's not PayPal or ebay's fault, that's the nature of payment by credit card under Federal law (15 USC 1666). The payment processor can always disintermediate themselves. They're not agreeing with the buyer, they're just refusing to handle the payment because the buyer asked them not to. They are the buyer's agent, making the payment to you because, and only because, the buyer directs them to. The buyer still owes you the money. You can still collect from the buyer directly.
Hate PayPal and ebay sold goods which buyers say they never got!
There really is no way to get around the possibility of a chargeback. Regardless of how the ebay/PayPal transaction transpires, all the scammer has to do is to fund PayPal with a credit card and then dispute the charge on the credit card. The CC company will issue a chargeback and PayPal will take the money out of your account and charge you a fee on top of that.
Whenever you use credit cards or something built on top of credit cards, you have to accept that the credit card handler can disintermediate themselves from the transaction if they choose to do so. In that case, you have to collect from the buyer directly, suing them if necessary. That's just the way credit cards work. The credit card company handles the payment if the buyer wishes them to, otherwise, they don't. It is inherently a revocable payment, and in that case, it's the seller's problem to get the buyer to pay them directly. Don't like that deal? Don't take credit cards or payment services built on top of them.
There really is no way to get around the possibility of a chargeback. Regardless of how the ebay/PayPal transaction transpires, all the scammer has to do is to fund PayPal with a credit card and then dispute the charge on the credit card. The CC company will issue a chargeback and PayPal will take the money out of your account and charge you a fee on top of that.
Unless Ebay starts allowing its users to spend with Bitcoins I dont advice using it.
anybody selling BTC for paypal is begging to be ripped off, and it reduces everybody's trust in BTC when people do it and then scream afterwards about getting scammed
I meant the cash idea casascius. You can go on SR and buy cash for BTC already. Spread is low and not very profitable unless you were doing huge volumes. And even then, I'm not sure if it'd be worth it unless you were doing $100 transactions each time. Lots of $20 guys on there and I just don't see how it's worth their time and effot.
@casascius
This can be done already via SilkRoad. The spread isn't that good and there's already lots of established sellers that do this, making it difficult for new ones to come in and get any sales without reducing the spread further to entice some to try them out.
This can be done already via SilkRoad. The spread isn't that good and there's already lots of established sellers that do this, making it difficult for new ones to come in and get any sales without reducing the spread further to entice some to try them out.
Silk Road is unlikely to offer cryptographic escrow. By cryptographic, you trust the math first, and the escrow agent second. The scheme I have come up with eliminates all possibility of the escrow agent taking funds, and doesn't depend on the escrow agent to do anything to release the funds if the two parties are satisfied with their transaction and are willing to release the funds to one another.
I will probably make an iPhone client for being the escrow payer or payee, and leave the escrow agent function as a desktop app.
@casascius
This can be done already via SilkRoad. The spread isn't that good and there's already lots of established sellers that do this, making it difficult for new ones to come in and get any sales without reducing the spread further to entice some to try them out.
@Photon939
I wonder if one could sell unencrypted wallet.dat files on eBay and send them via e-mail? Then the user could download the wallet and encrypt it themselves to protect it. Seller could offer to give all purchasers a "bonus" of 1 BTC when item is marked as received and positive feedback left, sent to the address of the purchased wallet. Not sure if eBay has a rule pertaining to bonuses offered for such actions or not. I couldn't find one when doing a quick search. This eliminates shipping charges and allows the BTC to be sold cheaper and should go a LONG way to prevent chargebacks.
This can be done already via SilkRoad. The spread isn't that good and there's already lots of established sellers that do this, making it difficult for new ones to come in and get any sales without reducing the spread further to entice some to try them out.
@Photon939
I wonder if one could sell unencrypted wallet.dat files on eBay and send them via e-mail? Then the user could download the wallet and encrypt it themselves to protect it. Seller could offer to give all purchasers a "bonus" of 1 BTC when item is marked as received and positive feedback left, sent to the address of the purchased wallet. Not sure if eBay has a rule pertaining to bonuses offered for such actions or not. I couldn't find one when doing a quick search. This eliminates shipping charges and allows the BTC to be sold cheaper and should go a LONG way to prevent chargebacks.
Cryptographic escrow would be a great way to go! I am trying to make it easy and available to the masses.
All you have to do is download my Windows app, and I'll be the escrow agent and tell you what to do.
https://casascius.com/btcaddress-alpha.zip
I will probably bring this to the iPhone as well. I am already working on an app for doing BIP 38 paper wallets (which works very well! just working on dressing it up to be worthy for the app store)
All you have to do is download my Windows app, and I'll be the escrow agent and tell you what to do.
https://casascius.com/btcaddress-alpha.zip
I will probably bring this to the iPhone as well. I am already working on an app for doing BIP 38 paper wallets (which works very well! just working on dressing it up to be worthy for the app store)
How about other forums to list bitcoins for sale.trade. Payment seem to be the sticky part. Paypal is not safe, what about Neteller? Any comments or experience with that is much appreciated
I am surprised that sending cash in the mail is so overlooked as a viable option.
This is pretty much already what's happening to sustain the PayPal/eBay charade, just backwards: you're sending electronic PPUSD in order to receive paper BTC in the mail.
Why not just send paper USD in the mail and receive electronic BTC? It's no more risky, and in fact, it's less risky, since paper USD and electronic BTC don't charge themselves back.
This is pretty much already what's happening to sustain the PayPal/eBay charade, just backwards: you're sending electronic PPUSD in order to receive paper BTC in the mail.
Why not just send paper USD in the mail and receive electronic BTC? It's no more risky, and in fact, it's less risky, since paper USD and electronic BTC don't charge themselves back.
I've thought the best way to do this is send the buyer a paper bitcoin wallet, along with instructions telling the buyer that they must first mark the transaction as complete with ebay including leaving positive feedback. Once the buyer leaves positive feedback you can send the coin(s) to the paper wallet and the buyer could then redeem it.
Not sure if it's possible to dispute a transaction after you've already left positive feedback but who knows, anything is possible with FeePay. I haven't tried it.
Not sure if it's possible to dispute a transaction after you've already left positive feedback but who knows, anything is possible with FeePay. I haven't tried it.
Hahaha. Ok DeathandTaxes. Just was trying to think on my toes a bit. I guess it's still feasible that one could get away with doing that. You'd have to make it ridiculously specific, I guess, and even then they might be able to convince eBay to refund.
Maybe something like:
I'm just trying to figure out if anything if feasible as such. It sounds like a black hole I guess. Too bad, I'd like to get into the business of buying up BTC and making them easily available for purchase via Paypal/Dwolla/Quickpay to a list of trusted/confirmed buyers. Not just any random bloke off the street.
Maybe something like:
Quote
1 Delivery Confirmation Envelope via USPS - $15 + shipping
Description:
Please read this description carefully before buying! You are purchasing a delivery confirmation to come to your door from me via USPS. I will send something addressed to your verified Paypal address, in a packaging of my choice (most likely an envelope), with a delivery confirmation. You are only purchasing the right to sign for something from my verified address to your verified address. Refusal to sign or pick up from the post office by you does not warrant an item not being delivered. Must be signed for by only the addressee. Signing for the package indicates a complete transaction and getting this item as described.
If you do not understand or agree with the terms of this auction, do not purchase! Each item comes with a free bitcoin sent to a wallet address you specify upon checkout. This is not part of the auction item you are purchasing, and only a sign of goodwill on my part. Failure to receive the free bitcoin does not give cause for complaint by the purchaser.
Description:
Please read this description carefully before buying! You are purchasing a delivery confirmation to come to your door from me via USPS. I will send something addressed to your verified Paypal address, in a packaging of my choice (most likely an envelope), with a delivery confirmation. You are only purchasing the right to sign for something from my verified address to your verified address. Refusal to sign or pick up from the post office by you does not warrant an item not being delivered. Must be signed for by only the addressee. Signing for the package indicates a complete transaction and getting this item as described.
If you do not understand or agree with the terms of this auction, do not purchase! Each item comes with a free bitcoin sent to a wallet address you specify upon checkout. This is not part of the auction item you are purchasing, and only a sign of goodwill on my part. Failure to receive the free bitcoin does not give cause for complaint by the purchaser.
I'm just trying to figure out if anything if feasible as such. It sounds like a black hole I guess. Too bad, I'd like to get into the business of buying up BTC and making them easily available for purchase via Paypal/Dwolla/Quickpay to a list of trusted/confirmed buyers. Not just any random bloke off the street.
It's not viable. When adjudicating a dispute eBay don't tend to care about technicalities and, as you've already indicated, eBay generally favor the buyer.
You may get away with your suggested business model in the short term, but it's highly unlikely you'd be able to sustain it - one charge-back could wipe out all your profits for a 20+ transactions...
You may get away with your suggested business model in the short term, but it's highly unlikely you'd be able to sustain it - one charge-back could wipe out all your profits for a 20+ transactions...
Could work. Careful, e_bay have delisted several of my listings. Besides if you work with Paypal in addition, Paypal tend to side with scammers - burned several times
Bah. eBay is too difficult! What if you just auction off sending an empty envelope to the address? With delivery confirmation, they would have to sign for it, confirming the received the envelope. That would be forced proof that a letter was received.
Ok once again....
Buyer signs for order, redeems the BTC and then charges the item back as "item not as described". They happily return the worthless piece of paper back to you.
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