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Topic: Gigamining / Teramining - page 66. (Read 216450 times)

hero member
Activity: 614
Merit: 500
November 24, 2012, 04:06:35 PM
This begs the question:

If the list given by Nefario to Giga is false, how is a lawyer going to fix this? It's not like the lawyer has the true list and we have to prove ourselves to him first.
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
November 24, 2012, 03:56:25 PM
To the bitcoin community:

We are all in the very unenviable position of riding in the wake of the aftermath of James McCarthy. I have been placed in a very bad spot in this wake, and my only goal is to protect and serve Gigaminers as I have over the last half year.

I would like to point out that I am the only asset issuer on GLBSE, as far as I am aware, who is trying to move forward and abide by all the laws of local, state, federal and international law. I am the only asset issuer, as far as I am aware, to hire legal counsel and to send via certified mail, a demand letter to James McCarthy after multiple unanswered emails and phone calls. I am fairly confident that the asset lists only started arriving once the letter was received.

Further more, how exactly would you like me to handle situations where claims are made against gigamining that are not in the list provided from GLBSE? Should I and all Gigaminers just keep trusting nefario? This is the exact reason to have a claims process in the first place. Nefario is withholding information for a mistake he made, Gigaminers should not have to suffer because of Nefario's mistakes any longer.

I have received claims for over 10% of Gigamining that are NOT on the lists given to me by GLBSE. This is a significant percentage and it warrants the claims process.

Finally, what should happen if I pay the wrong individual a large amount of the held coins? Guess what, I'm still on the hook according to the law. It is only right to protect the interests of all Gigaminers by making sure I have legal recourse should such a situation occur.

I hope it is clear that I am only trying to clean up and move forward from the situation at hand.

Best regards,
James

I've decided that gigavps will not get a scammer tag for this. Nefario has proven himself to be untrustworthy, so it would be unreasonable for gigavps to pay out large sums of money based entirely on Nefario's list. Requiring affidavits and proofs of identity are reasonable precautions. It's impossible to strictly follow the contract in a safe way.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
November 24, 2012, 03:47:31 PM
Though the 5 Mh will worth nothing once the ASICs are out. But still, the Bitcoin( dividend of the shares) worth something. Shouldnt they be distrubuted? Giga knows our address!

The only one who will make a profit is giga's lawyer  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
November 24, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
There's a lot of sets, a lot of overlap and pretty much nothing definite to go on. Anyone can claim they're in the Fo. With the information so far available there's not in fact any way to either prove or falsify such a claim. Being able to verify the control of a Bitcoin address is a good step forward. However, NOT being able to do so does not necessarily prove anything.

It seems you're focusing on my use of the word 'proof' which I admit was poorly chosen. Perhaps 'verification' would've been more appropriate.

Suppose the person used an old wallet they meanwhile abandoned to send money to GLBSE a significant interval ago and never since made withdrawals. Suppose the person only used a 3rd party, such as for instance some webwallet service that doesn't support signing or that mixes client funds.

If ownership of an address cannot be established (particularly in conjunction with an email address), then sadly no further action can be taken. In this circumstance, responsibility rests with the address owner as it is completely outside of giga's control, as well as nefario's.

1. Person makes claim for Fo, is on list, is able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (unless, for instance, they colluded with Nefario to falsify the list for their benefit - which'd be one possible explanation for the delay).

This is the only option offering a reasonable solution because of the ability to sign. Yes, it's still a maybe to the extent that the list could be misrepresented. However, from the contact I've received, the process appears to be above-board (both from the asset-issues and nefario) and I'm inclined to accept it as legitimate thus far.

If existing forum registration exists and can be associated with an email, it could provide an additional form of verification without submitting personally identifiable information. Illegitimate control of both an email address and Bitcoin address is unlikely.

Perhaps giga can put any unclaimed funds back into the operation.

Now, you say "it's reasonable to conclude". Is this you offering an indemnity, in the sense you'll pay out of pocket anything and everything if that assumption turns sour? Yes, my choice of words may not be to your liking. Sticks and stones.

This depends on whether asset ownership is retained or liquidated. If funds are to be returned, then there is no way to truly provide indemnification, even with personal information being provided. On the other hand, if the shares issued are to remain linked to the respective Bitcoin and email addresses, I would have no reason to deny indemnity (which would not require personal information, either). Of course, I cannot speak for everyone.
sr. member
Activity: 411
Merit: 250
November 24, 2012, 02:05:14 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

It's too early to tell and too early to even make tentative plans because gigavps and his legal counsel have no idea how many will end up being unclaimed and what the actual legal responsibilities are for contracts made on GLBSE specificially. Once legal representation is involved, things move slowly - so we might find out the answer to this several months to several years after operations start as normal, depending upon any legal or regulatory action that is taken against his LLC or Bitcoin itself. The primary responsibility is moving forward in a conservative, bureaucratic manner so that the shares that do get claimed don't have another problem like this again.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
November 24, 2012, 01:00:08 PM
Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.

Good point!!! So there is no right decision...

The right decision is to send the scammer in a supermax jail in company of Madoff a.s.a.p., since he likes the law.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
Casper - A failed entrepenuer who looks like Zhou
November 24, 2012, 12:58:24 PM
Though the 5 Mh will worth nothing once the ASICs are out. But still, the Bitcoin( dividend of the shares) worth something. Shouldnt they be distrubuted? Giga knows our address!
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 531
First bits: 12good
November 24, 2012, 12:55:14 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others.

Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.

Good point!!! So there is no right decision...
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
November 24, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others.

Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
November 24, 2012, 12:49:19 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

This is a good question. Maybe start the gigacharity?
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
November 24, 2012, 12:45:50 PM
Do not the two emails I've received from him already confirm that I am on the list?

Correct.
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 531
First bits: 12good
November 24, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others. Anyway this topic is getting out of control....

One more thing, about the Terramining upgrade... what will be the terms, it's important to know this information, so that we can decide whether or not to do the claims, because IF everything is OK with the ASICs these 5 MH/s will worth nothing in just several weeks (months), and no point to invest money and time for "affidavit" documents.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
November 24, 2012, 12:43:16 PM
Information linking emails to Bitcoin addresses has been provided. The next step is to contact the email address and request a signed message from the respective Bitcoin address. Once that is done, it's reasonable to conclude the owner is legitimate.

Let's sum things up here:

I. GIGAMINING shares were being traded on the GLBSE platform.

II. GLBSE is discontinued (in the most disorderly way possible).

A month passes.

III. The operator is tagged as a scammer.

Another month passes.

IV. A list of asset holders is produced, by the ex-operator now tagged as a scammer. This list is declared incomplete by the author himself. The list is delivered as plaintext over mail to the issuer of GIGAMINING.

This brings us about up to date. Of the multitude of people on this Forum (F), some are (Fo) and some are not (Fno) owners of GIGAMINING shares. Those who claim shares (Fc) will be some but not all of Fo and some but not all of Fno. Of the Fo, some but not all will be on the list. Of the people on the list, it is at this point hoped but unprovable that all are in fact Fo.

There's a lot of sets, a lot of overlap and pretty much nothing definite to go on. Anyone can claim they're in the Fo. With the information so far available there's not in fact any way to either prove or falsify such a claim. Being able to verify the control of a Bitcoin address is a good step forward. However, NOT being able to do so does not necessarily prove anything. Suppose the person used an old wallet they meanwhile abandoned to send money to GLBSE a significant interval ago and never since made withdrawals. Suppose the person only used a 3rd party, such as for instance some webwallet service that doesn't support signing or that mixes client funds.

So look at it from the other end:

1. Person makes claim for Fo, is on list, is able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (unless, for instance, they colluded with Nefario to falsify the list for their benefit - which'd be one possible explanation for the delay).
2. Person makes claim for Fo, is on the list, is not able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe.
3. Person makes claim for Fo, is not on the list. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (and they for any of a host of reasons weren't included).
4. Person makes no claim for Fo. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe.

All I see is Maybes. For this to be resolvable painlessly i'd have to see nothing but Yes or No. No Maybes.

Now, you say "it's reasonable to conclude". Is this you offering an indemnity, in the sense you'll pay out of pocket anything and everything if that assumption turns sour? Yes, my choice of words may not be to your liking. Sticks and stones.

Sticks and stones, because this is a story of sticks and stones, and apparently words cannot quite paper over the chasm of a categorical difference.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
November 24, 2012, 12:39:09 PM
RE: the LLC - if I was in his position I'd do the same thing and protect my livelihood and my personal assets.

It does not seems the wisest move in order to that aims, and I actually hope that it will backfire spectacularly. It is more likely a trick to try to steal legally.
Neither is wise to ask "how high?" when he says "jump!", since the answer may well be "higher".
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
November 24, 2012, 12:31:32 PM
What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
November 24, 2012, 12:24:42 PM
May I ask that if James is taking the legal route that everyone else does the same.

He is requesting information via PM on this forum and at the same time asking everyone to correspond with his lawyer. Do not help him fuck you over.

The request for PM is for if you need to know if you are on the GLBSE list.

Do not the two emails I've received from him already confirm that I am on the list?
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
November 24, 2012, 12:15:47 PM
Hopefully I'm not putting words in gigavps's mouth here.

You are not and thanks for the support.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
November 24, 2012, 12:13:54 PM
If there were some form of cryptographic proof of ownership that avenue would probably be pursued. Except you were all idiots and flocked to GLBSE so THERE IS NO PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.

Ya know?

Information linking emails to Bitcoin addresses has been provided. The next step is to contact the email address and request a signed message from the respective Bitcoin address. Once that is done, it's reasonable to conclude the owner is legitimate.

Also, exercise restraint when insulting those who may be your own clients.
sr. member
Activity: 411
Merit: 250
November 24, 2012, 12:01:14 PM
May I ask that if James is taking the legal route that everyone else does the same.

He is requesting information via PM on this forum and at the same time asking everyone to correspond with his lawyer. Do not help him fuck you over.

The request for PM is for if you need to know if you are on the GLBSE list - for instance in my case, isolating which of my BTC addresses associated with an email account had shares on the list from GLBSE. This was resolved quickly, and enables me to file the required information information for the process to go ahead instead of getting mired in a simple question. He's not asking you to provide any information via PM - he is saying that if you are having a similar issue that would prevent you from providing the information to his legal counsel, then PM him and he'll help clear it up to the best of his ability. Hopefully I'm not putting words in gigavps's mouth here.
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
November 24, 2012, 11:22:19 AM
...
RE: the LLC - if I was in his position I'd do the same thing and protect my livelihood and my personal assets.

Except that you can't do business as an individual and then simply transfer your liabilities to another entity (LLC lol) as you wish. That's not how it works.

edit: And lying about your legal form is illegal here, and I'm pretty sure it's in the states, or almost everywhere else.
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