Topic: [GLBSE] BFLS - Bitcoin Mining & Sales - page 8. (Read 17867 times)

I (as an investor) don't have an issue with it being public; it would likely stop many "When am I getting my BFLS/Where in this list am I/This is unfair" type questions.

I guess to keep track of them the shares must be numbered? They should be in the GBLSE DB, so maybe Nefario can expose that?

As for public or private, dunno. Needs more thought.

I have been trying to figure that out... I need to talk to Nefario about that.  Right now, I'm selling them privately and transferring them manually, so I know who they are going to and how many shares there are.  Should I make the list public in the first post in this thread, or keep it private?

Well, I'm open to suggestions.  The 45 day thing is just for the first "round" as it were, it's not going to be an ongoing thing.  Once the mining is settled down and going and I have a rotation of Singles coming (and going, I'm sure), exchanges for physical hardware will be immediate, no waiting required.  My intention with the 45 days it to prevent people from just buying up the shares and then getting an instant single.  I want a mining operation going that is paying dividends to all the share holders first and foremost, with hardware sales as the secondary bonus given to everyone.  

So, in essense I am "sticking with exchanging the single when I have one to replace it" -  since I don't have a rotation going yet, I don't have anything to replace the exchanges.  Now that I have the IPO, I have more units on order and I'll have units to exchange - with BFLS.FUTURES, it will enable me to have a constant rotation of hardware, instead of a stuttered order of every 6 weeks.  The BFLS.FUTURES shares will then guarantee you the BFLS shares.

As far as dilution goes, I am structuring it so as to avoid dilution specifically.  200 shares will roughly give you 800 MH/s hashrate, always.  Even if I were to issue 10,000 more shares, it would all be backed by hardware, and your 200 shares would still be worth ~800 MH/s.  So if the total shares outstanding is 2000, or 20,000, 1 share = 4 MH/s dividend... that's really the whole point of this venture.  I want to provide the ability for people to own a fraction of a unit that always maintains it's value in MH/s, no dilution or changes regardless of what happens with the stock.  You'll always know 1 share = 4 MH/s.  

The original concept was a "rent-to-own" that kind of grew into this, and I think it's a great idea.  It will allow people to purchase parts of a single and slowly buy more of the single until they own the whole thing.  This applies to MiniRigs as well - you can/will be able to trade in ~5200 shares fro a MiniRig - you can acquire the shares over time and have your "fractional" Single or MiniRig working for you the whole time, instead of being stuck with all or nothing.

You can ignore BFLS.FUTURES and concentrate on BFLS if that's what you want. FUTURES won't take anything away from BFLS, it works in addition to BFLS.  Once the initial 45 day waiting period is over, it will operate exactly as you describe.

This seems a very good method. My only question is if you'll be able to verify how many shares are sold to each person in the public sale, so that when someone says to you "I just bought 100 shares, add me up to the list for conversion" you can really verify that, otherwise the BFLS<=>BFLS.FUTURES ranking list for can be easily cheated.

When the concept of this venture was presented I was really excited.  I thought it sounded like an amazing idea and that it gave something unique to the approach.  I loved that one could trade in their shares for a single given there was another one there to replace it and have more shares issued.  The concept was clear and presented well.

Now I think this whole thing has turned into a mess.  The 45 day rule is lame.  If you just stick to not exchanging the single till you have another to replace it with, you would be fine.  Only issuing 900 shares at first blew it for me as I was only in the top 1600 according to price offering, but figured that was all I needed as there would be 2000 shares.  I also think this whole BFLS.futures thing wont sell as people will just have to sit on their investment to even get into the real investment.

I thought BFLS was great in its creation, but feel that it has majorly failed in execution.

True, I shouldn't have said extra, but my point was that there's no reason for him to take on your risk (ordering a single [or fraction])I disagree, I say the shareholders are buying stuff and paying him 15% to manage the purchase and operation of said stuffThat would be a reason not to buy now, unless you are bullish on the value of BTCBuy the main shares at the market-set premium if you want instant gratification; buy the futures if you want to order part of a single that you don't have to operate at much closer to the proportional market rate of said single; buy the single directly from BFL if you don't want to pay a premiumIf this is true, it is still true if you order it directly from BFL, only you have to set it up and operate.  I don't understand why you think Inaba should take on your risk in order to offer you a service.

Inaba isn't taking any real risk if he's not backing the bonds nor paying interest. He's buying stuff for free, with the money of the shareholders. If everything goes well, he's making his living by reserving for himself 15% of the shares of each unit, which is the same as taking 15% of the purchasing value as well as 15% of the operational revenue. His operating costs will be covered by that 15%.

Lets add that the share is slightly overpriced at current rates (should be 0.625 with BTC @4.8, 0.6 with BTC @5, I really can't understand those who are trading it for more than 1.4), and we have a great business, almost risk free... from the operator's pov...

I understand the advantages of the fractional purchase for the buyer and that was what appealed me when the proposal appeared. But it only works if you have your capital immediately working after you buy the shares. If you have it in limbo for who knows how long, all the possible advantages are lost. You are just buying a piece of overpriced used hardware, and you doesn't even have a clue if this piece is ever arriving or working...


Yes, that's how I saw it. Too risky for the buyer. Great business for the operator. There's a big (and inexplicable) spread now, but I guess it won't last long. And if this mechanism really is implemented this way, it's guaranteed that the BFLS shares won't ever going to go too high, because the continuing issuing and selling of new shares at nominal price (the exchange of bonds for shares is effectively doing this) is going to dilute the value of the existing shares.

It is basically an interest free loan given to the mining company for the agreement to exchange the bonds for shares in the company in the future.  The only profit would be if there is some kind of difference between the price of the bond now and the future price of the BFLS shares when they are converted or the dividend payments when having the BFLS shares.

Maybe the market will have a spread between how much the bonds cost and how much the shares cost.  It will be fun to watch, but for current shareholders it may be more economical to just get a 0% interest loan with a credit card to purchase more boards.

Those who do see it are probably the ones who would rather have a partial stake in a unit or rather, risk a partial stake in a unit.  You could pay BFL for a unit and you would be in the exact same boat, waiting for hardware to arrive and out the money if it doesn't.  As such, why should Inaba take on extra risk to satiate you when he is essentially doing the same thing for you in a fractional manner?

Let me see if I understand. So BFLS.FUTURES will work almost as a bond to raise capital, but without any interest payment. So, you get the credit to buy equipment for free, and the buyer of the share/bond/asset/whatever has to wait on a line for the hardware to arrive and become functional. And he'll begin to be compensated for the invested capital only if he's granted it's place on the line for exchanging this asset one on one for another supposedly more valuable...

It's that it? Am I missing something? What if the minirigs won't ever arrive? What if it take forever? We all will be stuck with an useless electronic asset without any compensation for the waiting?

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me... Maybe if you include some dividend payments as a form of interest and some guarantee to buy back or exchange the assets at least partially if something goes wrong it could work, but otherwise I'm not seeing it...

Ok, I think I've responded to all the PMs, if not, I apologize, please contact me again.

I am offering BFLS.FUTURES shares as per these conditions:


If you wish to purchase shares prior to the IPO, please contact me with the number of shares of BFLS.FUTURES you want and at what price.  I will allocate out shares so they are as equitably distributed as possible.  Once that is done, I will offer additional shares for public sale.

I'm not trying to hold on to them, but I want to get a rotation going, otherwise I'm just selling shares for singles with no dividends to return to investors.  Ideally, I would like to have at least 10 singles and 1 MiniRig physically mining at a minimum (thus ~7200 shares outstanding) and I can rotate more in as hardware allows.  As VBS said, it would just be a way to get quick singles or an MR otherwise, which is not the intention.

I got a ton of PMs with regards to the shares, I want to be clear to everyone that I am going to be offering shares of BFLS.FUTURES, which is a non-dividend paying asset that you can trade, once the hardware is physically in my possession for BFLS shares.  BFLS shares will pay dividends, BFLS.FUTURES will not.  BFLS shares will be always be backed by physical hardware, BFLS.FUTURES will be 'backed' by hardware on order.

As far as the price for BFLS.FUTURES, it will be the same .7 BTC initial offering as BFLS shares, since it's a 1:1 trade when hardware arrives.

My thought is that if/when you buy BFLS.FUTURES shares, you contact me and tell me how many shares you bought and when and I will put your name on a list.  Once the hardware arrives, each share will be traded for BFLS shares in the order you bought/contacted me with your intention to trade BFLS.FUTURES for BFLS.  I realize some people may just be interested in trading both BFLS and BFLS.FUTURES, so this may be irrelevant to some of you - but the # of shares purchased is what will buy your place in line, not an individual, so if someone wants to buy BFLS.FUTURES shares and sell them later at a premium because they are "first" in line, that's fine - it's the shares that are holding the place, not any specific individual.  I hope that makes sense.  

Since GLBSE has no way for me to verify who bought how many shares when, I have to go with the contact/list route... until such time as GLBSE offers this ability, I can't see any other way to do it.  

Until BFL starts shipping them with regularity, I think he should hold onto them. Otherwise, this asset is just a guaranteed "quick" (45 days) shortcut for buying singles, with a delivery estimate you can count on, unlike the delivery dates of BFL that we know are written in sand. So, for some people, having a definite date is worth paying premium.

Where I live, FNAC selled the iPhone 4 on its release day for 1200€ (at that time, ~$1740). It still sold out!

Inaba, it seems (to me anyway) like you are trying to back your offer with singles, but at the same time you do not want to give them up.

What will the price for these shares be?  Will it be a 15% discount from the IPO price of BFLS, or 15% off the current market price?

Yeah, that would probably be best.  If you want shares, contact me via PM with the number of shares you wish to purchase and at what price.  I will be offering a portion of the shares privately, so I can be sure that multiple people get them and then I will offer the rest on the public exchange.

Yeah a 1:1 ratio will simplify a lot.

As for avoiding just a very few ppl snatching all shares, maybe using some kind of small batch round robin assignment would work? You'll have to do it manually, based on user forum info here (or other differentiation mechanic), since GBLSE is anonymous and anyone can create accounts at will.

Yeah, I was just thinking about that... for sanity sake, I will just do a 1:1 ratio and take the 15% off the FUTURES shares as opposed to the BFLS shares.  So BFLS.FUTURES shares can be traded for BFLS shares at a 1:1 ratio when hardware becomes available.

Why not 1:1 ratio to keep things simple?