[GLBSE] Bitcorp Mining Company - BTCMC 60+ GH/s, clear ASIC upgrade path. - page 10.

yochdog

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Quote from: DiabloD3 on June 20, 2012, 03:45:10 PM

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 03:27:54 PM

OK shareholders......I think P4man is correct, and we need to decide sooner rather than later how we want to proceed.

I have created a motion on GLBSE to issue and additional 6,000 shares, the proceeds of which will be used to place an order for a BFL SC mini-rig.

I will take feedback here, and you can vote on GLBSE.

Currently BTCMC represents .3% of the mining network (1/300th). If we purchase a SC mini-rig, the network capacity could leap to 300 TH/s (25x) before our share of the block reward would go down.

I own 783 shares, I've voted no.

What would be your preferred route?

DiabloD3

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DiabloMiner author

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 03:27:54 PM

OK shareholders......I think P4man is correct, and we need to decide sooner rather than later how we want to proceed.

I have created a motion on GLBSE to issue and additional 6,000 shares, the proceeds of which will be used to place an order for a BFL SC mini-rig.

I will take feedback here, and you can vote on GLBSE.

Currently BTCMC represents .3% of the mining network (1/300th). If we purchase a SC mini-rig, the network capacity could leap to 300 TH/s (25x) before our share of the block reward would go down.

I own 783 shares, I've voted no.

yochdog

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Activity: 2044

Merit: 1000

OK shareholders......I think P4man is correct, and we need to decide sooner rather than later how we want to proceed.

I have created a motion on GLBSE to issue and additional 6,000 shares, the proceeds of which will be used to place an order for a BFL SC mini-rig.

I will take feedback here, and you can vote on GLBSE.

Currently BTCMC represents .3% of the mining network (1/300th). If we purchase a SC mini-rig, the network capacity could leap to 300 TH/s (25x) before our share of the block reward would go down.

DiabloD3

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DiabloMiner author

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 02:48:11 PM

Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 02:43:44 PM

to asic or not to asic is basically the only important question for a mining operation right now, at least a mining operatoin which owns a substantial amount of BFL fpgas.

I see only two sensible approaches. One is betting the bank on getting your asic hardware sooner than most, and thus preorder as soon as you can, keep your fpgas and trade them in for asics when you can, and there is a slight chance of breaking even or even a nice profit. The window of opportunity will be short, and if BFL gives priority to pre orders that do not trade in FPGAs, you are most likely screwed.

The other approach is selling your FPGAs *asap* to someone who intends to make that bet.

Buying shares in your company now, is betting you as CEO will bet right. The rest is of little importance by comparison. Therefore, may I make a suggestion? Split the company in to gpus and fpgas. I might be tempted to buy shares in a gpu only operation with low electricity cost. Its a gamble, but if these asics get delayed and people start selling gpus in anticipation of asics and reward halving, there might be some good months ahead. Its a risk I would consider.

The FPGA/ASIC stuff, I dont want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

Interesting thoughts.....I will definitly take it into consideration. There is a lot to think about in the coming months......I suppose rather than a split, I could put forth a motion to the shareholders to float another 5,000 shares for the purpose of purchasing a 1 TH/s rig and ensure we are viable going forward.

Yeah, but you gotta worry, BFL might be lying out their ass. And if they aren't, thats a year and a half away. I say grow your farm with Enterpoint hardware until 28nm FPGAs come out at the end of this year.

yochdog

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Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 02:43:44 PM

to asic or not to asic is basically the only important question for a mining operation right now, at least a mining operatoin which owns a substantial amount of BFL fpgas.

I see only two sensible approaches. One is betting the bank on getting your asic hardware sooner than most, and thus preorder as soon as you can, keep your fpgas and trade them in for asics when you can, and there is a slight chance of breaking even or even a nice profit. The window of opportunity will be short, and if BFL gives priority to pre orders that do not trade in FPGAs, you are most likely screwed.

The other approach is selling your FPGAs *asap* to someone who intends to make that bet.

Buying shares in your company now, is betting you as CEO will bet right. The rest is of little importance by comparison. Therefore, may I make a suggestion? Split the company in to gpus and fpgas. I might be tempted to buy shares in a gpu only operation with low electricity cost. Its a gamble, but if these asics get delayed and people start selling gpus in anticipation of asics and reward halving, there might be some good months ahead. Its a risk I would consider.

The FPGA/ASIC stuff, I dont want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

Interesting thoughts.....I will definitly take it into consideration. There is a lot to think about in the coming months......I suppose rather than a split, I could put forth a motion to the shareholders to float another 5,000 shares for the purpose of purchasing a 1 TH/s rig and ensure we are viable going forward.

P4man

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to asic or not to asic is basically the only important question for a mining operation right now, at least a mining operatoin which owns a substantial amount of BFL fpgas.

I see only two sensible approaches. One is betting the bank on getting your asic hardware sooner than most, and thus preorder as soon as you can, keep your fpgas and trade them in for asics when you can, and there is a slight chance of breaking even or even a nice profit. The window of opportunity will be short, and if BFL gives priority to pre orders that do not trade in FPGAs, you are most likely screwed.

The other approach is selling your FPGAs *asap* to someone who intends to make that bet.

Buying shares in your company now, is betting you as CEO will bet right. The rest is of little importance by comparison. Therefore, may I make a suggestion? Split the company in to gpus and fpgas. I might be tempted to buy shares in a gpu only operation with low electricity cost. Its a gamble, but if these asics get delayed and people start selling gpus in anticipation of asics and reward halving, there might be some good months ahead. Its a risk I would consider.

The FPGA/ASIC stuff, I dont want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

yochdog

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Quote from: bitlane on June 20, 2012, 12:22:41 PM

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 10:41:41 AM

Make sense?

Yes, actually it does make sense. Thanks for 'holding my hand' through that....lol

I just don't know enough about both securities (or common practices on the GLBSE) to distinguish between some that are being offered currently.

Cheers.

Definitly takes some time to evaluate it all!

bitlane

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I heart thebaron

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 10:41:41 AM

Make sense?

Yes, actually it does make sense. Thanks for 'holding my hand' through that....lol

I just don't know enough about both securities (or common practices on the GLBSE) to distinguish between some that are being offered currently.

Cheers.

yochdog

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Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 11:26:47 AM

As I understand, no matter how many fpga's you send back to BFL, you have to place an asic order that is 2x bigger than the value of your fpgas. IOW, you have to double your bet. Its not an easy decision to make, certainly not at this point with so many unknowns, but at least my willingness to invest in your company would depend very much on your perspective on spending money on ASICs.

Absolutely....

I understand the trade-in policy. I am viewing the singles as a stop-gap for the moment, that earn a nice yield while we wait and see what happens with ASICS. Once the dust settles and there is more clarity, then the decision on trading up can be made depending on the ROI projections at that point.

I am comitted to mining, and the shareholders.

P4man

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As I understand, no matter how many fpga's you send back to BFL, you have to place an asic order that is 2x bigger than the value of your fpgas. IOW, you have to double your bet. Its not an easy decision to make, certainly not at this point with so many unknowns, but at least my willingness to invest in your company would depend very much on your perspective on spending money on ASICs.

BTW; why did you buy those FPGAs in the first place? With nearly free electricity, it would take an eternity to become more profitable than your gpus, no?

yochdog

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Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 11:19:03 AM

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 11:09:24 AM

[
And of course all the MOBOs, PSUs, CPUs, etc that run all that equipment.

You can assign your own salvage values, but $20,000 seems VERY conservative to me.

I think people will make widely different estimates of what that hardware will be worth in 6 months, Im sure some will think pre 7xxx GPUs will be worth only very little as gpu farms sell out left and right, and its clear as mud how popular fpga singles will become to use as "credit" towards an asic purchase, but FWIW, your estimate seems relatively accurate to me.

Quote

Electricity is amazingly cheap. 2 of our locations provide free power, and we have over 16,000 MH/s installed in those 2 locations. The other 2 locations have consumption based pricing, and the incremental cost per KWh is $.031.

Thats low indeed

Have you any thoughts on what you would do if/when difficulty increases by 5x or 10x? Do you intend to keep mining with those gpus as long as its marginally profitable, or sell ? Any thoughts on getting in to asics?

ya, the GPU's will be mining as long as there is any profitability, then sold off to invest elsewhere.

Depending on if and when the BFL asics become a reality, those 2 dozen singles will go a long way towards getting a Terahash machine. That is probably the fall-back plan as of now.

P4man

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Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 11:09:24 AM

[
And of course all the MOBOs, PSUs, CPUs, etc that run all that equipment.

You can assign your own salvage values, but $20,000 seems VERY conservative to me.

I think people will make widely different estimates of what that hardware will be worth in 6 months, Im sure some will think pre 7xxx GPUs will be worth only very little as gpu farms sell out left and right, and its clear as mud how popular fpga singles will become to use as "credit" towards an asic purchase, but FWIW, your estimate seems relatively accurate to me.

Quote

Electricity is amazingly cheap. 2 of our locations provide free power, and we have over 16,000 MH/s installed in those 2 locations. The other 2 locations have consumption based pricing, and the incremental cost per KWh is $.031.

Thats low indeed

Have you any thoughts on what you would do if/when difficulty increases by 5x or 10x? Do you intend to keep mining with those gpus as long as its marginally profitable, or sell ? Any thoughts on getting in to asics?

yochdog

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Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 10:59:42 AM

Nice to see you selling shares, rather than bonds.
However, in order to make an assessment, it would be good if you gave some more info. Specifically Id like to hear about what hardware you are running (gpu or fgpa and which kind) and how low your electricity cost really is.

Here is a breakdown of our hardware:

7970    22
5970    16
6950    7
6970    2
6870    1
6870X2    4
5850    5
5870    3

BFL singles 23

And of course all the MOBOs, PSUs, CPUs, etc that run all that equipment.

You can assign your own salvage values, but $20,000 seems VERY conservative to me.

Electricity is amazingly cheap. 2 of our locations provide free power, and we have over 16,000 MH/s installed in those 2 locations. The other 2 locations have consumption based pricing, and the incremental cost per KWh is $.031.

yochdog

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Quote from: P4man on June 20, 2012, 10:59:42 AM

Nice to see you selling shares, rather than bonds.
However, in order to make an assessment, it would be good if you gave some more info. Specifically Id like to hear about what hardware you are running (gpu or fgpa and which kind) and how low your electricity cost really is.

I was just thinking about this. Obviously saying we have 20K in equipment is asking for a lot of trust.

Let me put together a complete list and post it. I will also put together the electrical cost (which will probably make you jealous!)

P4man

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Nice to see you selling shares, rather than bonds.
However, in order to make an assessment, it would be good if you gave some more info. Specifically Id like to hear about what hardware you are running (gpu or fgpa and which kind) and how low your electricity cost really is.

yochdog

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Quote from: bulanula on June 20, 2012, 10:47:00 AM

Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 10:41:41 AM

Quote from: bitlane on June 20, 2012, 10:21:25 AM

What the payout difference and share price difference compared to gigavps's program ? (I haven't been paying attention).

What costs more to purchase, which returns more per payment and which breaks even sooner ? (with all of the recent price changes on the GLBSE)...

Currently BTCMC pays out .015 BTC per share, per month. In the next 2-3 months, we will be moving to a 100% passthrough model, less operating expenses.

The farm is running at 48 GH/s at the moment, and will have closer to 55 GH/s within 7 days.

48,000/10,000 = 4.8 MH/s per share.

Share price is @ .835, thus buyers are paying .17 BTC per MH/s. Gigamining is all over the board, but assuming 1 BTC, you pay .2 BTC per MH/s there.

HOWEVER, Gigamining is simply a bond, with no interest in the underlying assets. BTCMC shareholders have a claim on the salvage value of the operating assets, which is easily $20,000 assuming very conservative recovery rates.

My rough calculations show that each BTCMC share is worth .307 in equipment ALONE. Which leaves the buyer paying .535 for the actual hashes. That means they are really paying .111 BTC per MH/s. Far and away the best deal on GLBSE.

Make sense?

Know what I find funny ?

All the miners on GLBSE claiming their company is "the best deal on GLBSE".

Can't all be winners, can we ?

(subbing)

Its simple math really.....you can confirm it yourself if you like. Pretty black and white.

I never found quantitative matters to be that challenging, but it seems to be hard for a lot of members.

bulanula

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Quote from: yochdog on June 20, 2012, 10:41:41 AM

Quote from: bitlane on June 20, 2012, 10:21:25 AM

What the payout difference and share price difference compared to gigavps's program ? (I haven't been paying attention).

What costs more to purchase, which returns more per payment and which breaks even sooner ? (with all of the recent price changes on the GLBSE)...

Currently BTCMC pays out .015 BTC per share, per month. In the next 2-3 months, we will be moving to a 100% passthrough model, less operating expenses.

The farm is running at 48 GH/s at the moment, and will have closer to 55 GH/s within 7 days.

48,000/10,000 = 4.8 MH/s per share.

Share price is @ .835, thus buyers are paying .17 BTC per MH/s. Gigamining is all over the board, but assuming 1 BTC, you pay .2 BTC per MH/s there.

HOWEVER, Gigamining is simply a bond, with no interest in the underlying assets. BTCMC shareholders have a claim on the salvage value of the operating assets, which is easily $20,000 assuming very conservative recovery rates.

My rough calculations show that each BTCMC share is worth .307 in equipment ALONE. Which leaves the buyer paying .535 for the actual hashes. That means they are really paying .111 BTC per MH/s. Far and away the best deal on GLBSE.

Make sense?

Know what I find funny ?

All the miners on GLBSE claiming their company is "the best deal on GLBSE".

Can't all be winners, can we ?

(subbing)

yochdog

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1000

Quote from: bitlane on June 20, 2012, 10:21:25 AM

What the payout difference and share price difference compared to gigavps's program ? (I haven't been paying attention).

What costs more to purchase, which returns more per payment and which breaks even sooner ? (with all of the recent price changes on the GLBSE)...

Currently BTCMC pays out .015 BTC per share, per month. In the next 2-3 months, we will be moving to a 100% passthrough model, less operating expenses.

The farm is running at 48 GH/s at the moment, and will have closer to 55 GH/s within 7 days.

48,000/10,000 = 4.8 MH/s per share.

Share price is @ .835, thus buyers are paying .17 BTC per MH/s. Gigamining is all over the board, but assuming 1 BTC, you pay .2 BTC per MH/s there.

HOWEVER, Gigamining is simply a bond, with no interest in the underlying assets. BTCMC shareholders have a claim on the salvage value of the operating assets, which is easily $20,000 assuming very conservative recovery rates.

My rough calculations show that each BTCMC share is worth .307 in equipment ALONE. Which leaves the buyer paying .535 for the actual hashes. That means they are really paying .111 BTC per MH/s. Far and away the best deal on GLBSE.

Make sense?

bitlane

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

I heart thebaron

What the payout difference and share price difference compared to gigavps's program ? (I haven't been paying attention).

What costs more to purchase, which returns more per payment and which breaks even sooner ? (with all of the recent price changes on the GLBSE)...

yochdog

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1000

Attention all shareholders:

Recent upgrades to the new Datacenter have increased our speed to 48 GH/s. In the next 10 days we will easily exceed 50 GH/s, and have a good shot at 60.

At the current price, BTCMC shares offer the best value of any mining company on GLBSE.

Topic: [GLBSE] Bitcorp Mining Company - BTCMC 60+ GH/s, clear ASIC upgrade path. - page 10. (Read 17418 times)