Global Migration of Millionaires. Can Bitcoin change this scenario? - page 3.

exstasie

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Quote from: yhiaali3 on July 30, 2020, 08:15:57 PM

If it is the fear of the dictatorial government alone that causes the rich to migrate to more free countries then transferring money to Bitcoin will be a very good way to protect their money from the government and will not have to migrate.

What's to stop authoritarian regimes from shaking down investors for their coins? Even America did it in the 1930s with gold. You think the Russian government would think twice about something like that?

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This is for sure, the rich fear their money in dictatorial countries, and therefore they resort to fleeing or migrating to the most free countries. If it is the fear of the dictatorial government alone that causes the rich to migrate to more free countries then transferring money to Bitcoin will be a very good way to protect their money from the government and will not have to migrate .
But I think the fear of confiscating their money is not the only reason for immigration but rather they want to live in a more democratic and open country where they can operate their money easily and do a lot of work that cannot be done in oppressive countries.

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I guess it could help keep them there to an extent, but most of these people are fleeing from depressive government rule all together and I'm not sure any change in type of monetary unit used will do much to change peoples minds about sticking around instead of fleeing to a more free "rule".

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Quote from: tvplus006 on July 30, 2020, 05:01:34 AM

The first priority for those who have already earned their capital is to protect it. Therefore, the priority for such people is to emigrate to countries with developed democracies. If we look at the graph, we will see that all these countries are marked by a high standard of living.

The existence of antagonism between the interests of workers and capital is increasingly indisputable, when the disappointment and anger of the lower middle class over the existing political conditions is so acute, which raises the fact that liberal democracy at the center of global capitalism is actually giving birth to a political wave of right-wing and new fascist populism. So that there arises a discourse of a socialist political agenda to offer an alternative order of democratic society based on class consciousness that frees people from the shackles of domination and oppression in various forms in the realm of politics, economics, social and culture. The free market mechanism poses a threat to democracy, while the expansion of democracy cannot limit market freedom and stop the wheel of capital accumulation.

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Quote from: bitmover on July 30, 2020, 11:05:33 AM

Quote from: stompix on July 30, 2020, 10:03:01 AM

Quote from: bitmover on July 30, 2020, 09:32:03 AM

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!

I guess the idea is not to run away with the money while they beat or process you, but to move the money way before any of those processes take place...

Similar to buying gold and storing it somewhere safe. Nobody doesn't even need to know you have it.

Edit:

Quote from: stompix on July 30, 2020, 10:03:01 AM

Besides, BTC is exactly opposing this, so you can't really be a fan of wealth redistribution and of BTC at the same time. Wink

100% agree with this. I don't get people who want the governments to control the economy buying btc at the same time.

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Quote from: stompix on July 30, 2020, 10:03:01 AM

Quote from: bitmover on July 30, 2020, 09:32:03 AM

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!

I guess the idea is not to run away with the money while they beat or process you, but to move the money way before any of those processes take place...

Similar to buying gold and storing it somewhere safe. Nobody doesn't even need to know you have it.

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Quote from: Darker45 on July 29, 2020, 10:21:56 PM

I'm afraid that's the half-empty way of looking at it. How about calling it social justice?

Justice? Probably not the one that's in front of every courthouse.
What justice is there when you take something from me just because you don't have something of your own?
You could call bullying also social justice, the bullies were taking lunch money from the kids that money. The poor were exempt from this.

Quote from: Darker45 on July 29, 2020, 10:21:56 PM

Those who have much will have to give more and those who have little will have to give less. Moreover, those who have much will have to receive less and those who have little will have to receive more. But, yeah, those who scream the loudest will have to receive nothing. Grin

Do you know how this worked in the past?
Total disaster, from the URSS to Zimbabwe, when the poor took from the rich it ended with everyone getting poor! In Zimbabwe, they took the lands from the rich farmers, what happened? The poor died of hunger even though they had their own land! Forced redistribution of wealth is creating more problems that is solving.
Besides, BTC is exactly opposing this, so you can't really be a fan of wealth redistribution and of BTC at the same time. Wink

Quote from: bitmover on July 30, 2020, 09:32:03 AM

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!

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Quote from: stompix on July 29, 2020, 10:32:24 AM

Quote from: slapper on July 29, 2020, 09:12:37 AM

Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad.

No, it's people that move, not the money, if you read the articles these are people who are getting out of those countries and choosing another, not for investment but to protect their money and in some other cases to protect their lives.
Having money in some of those listed above means you must also change your political views or learn to shut up!

Quote from: LoyceV on July 29, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

That's called taxes Wink

It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.
No wonder France has managed to get a place there when the crowds shout to tax the kulaks what choice you have?
There are countries that match France in normal taxes for the average Joe, but France was one of the last that scrapped the wealth tax in the EU, guess who put it there in the first place? It starts with Socialist and ends with Party Grin

Those are the exact points that I though when I posted the images.
I live in a country were rich people have a very good quality of life (brazil). We have a good weather, there is a good health care for who is rich, beautiful place, and so on... But the problems comes in security, "changing political views or learn to shut up", abusive taxes to give away mooney to screamers who don't work and so on.

France is a good example of that. Amazing country in many aspects, but socialist policies and just kicking away millionaires

Quote

Anyhow, just as bitcoin won't be able to make watermelons grow in the Sahara it won't be able to change people's opinion and needs

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

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People who have millions of dollars or euros logically want to see the world and are actually looking for an ideal place to live. I don't think China or Russia are ideal places to live, especially in terms of human rights and security - but they are ideal places to get rich very quickly - of course if you have a good relationship with the authorities.

As others have already commented, Bitcoin cannot change anything in this case, the rich unlike the poor have the privilege to choose not only better tax havens, but also countries where life is generally healthier considering the quality of air, water, food or crime rates. After all, one should not be deceived who will survive in the event of a global catastrophe - the one who has the money to pay for the ticket (movie 2012).

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Quote from: el kaka22 on July 29, 2020, 01:01:24 PM

...However another thing is, when you live in a country like China where there is a dictator, that is also a bad country to live in, you could be rich yourself but everyone and everything around you is poor, so when you are rich, why not go to a country that is much better and live a much better life?

The first priority for those who have already earned their capital is to protect it. Therefore, the priority for such people is to emigrate to countries with developed democracies. If we look at the graph, we will see that all these countries are marked by a high standard of living.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 29, 2020, 03:10:18 PM

I'm not sure how much taxation has to do with this so-called millionaire migration. It does make sense if the tax advantages are huge and you have an extremely high income, but I really doubt most people would move to a different country for strictly economic reasons. Then again, I'm not massively wealthy and thus don't think like someone who is.

I agree, if you are very rich I would assume you choose a country you enjoy living in, not because it has so many tax benefits. Being rich should allow you to pay taxes, especially if you already have the wealth. And since you paid taxes when you got that money you don't have to pay taxes again on it.

If you would really want to avoid taxation the best would be to buy a yacht and live in international waters. If you spend more than 2/3 of a year in no country you wouldn't have to pay any taxes at all. Check out "The World" it's a luxury cruise ship travelling year around the world and rich old people buy their cabins. It's like an apartment building on the ocean to avoid taxes. Must be boring as hell. I prefer paying taxes and stay on land.

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Quote from: BIT-BENDER on July 28, 2020, 01:47:06 PM

Some millionaire move there wealth not because of the countries they are in will steal it but because they stole the money and are looking for countries to hide it away in, large millions if not billions leaves African countries to other countries from corrupt leaders/politicians and are hidden off.
I hope bitcoin does not become like an -option/alternative- for these likes.

I think those who you are referring to are real people and part of those millionaires who moves from country to country, but I sincerely believe that mostly those are honest people who did a great job and not trying to hide anything from anyone.
Bitcoin will always remain as an alternative option for people who still as a place to hide money in, but thats inevitable, its just how decentralized money works and thats part of the game.

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Quote from: abhiseshakana on July 29, 2020, 05:10:24 AM

Quote from: teosanru on July 28, 2020, 11:55:25 PM

Interesting infographic. But are you sure it's because of freedom only? Because UK is a pretty free country as far as I know why are numbers in negative there? I think people move out of countries like China and India in exploring better opportunities and better flavour of living. I mean even if you make a list of normal people the metric would still more or less be same. So it's not the millionaires who are migrating in this direction.

The motives of the population of China and India, all over the world, have different motives. Migration from China to the whole world is known as the diaspora. Diaspora actually became a government program, because China is not a country, China is civilization. The majority who work abroad and live in other countries are employees of Chinese state-owned enterprises who have also been trained and militarized and military educated to survive in other countries. At present, almost all countries in China always have a Chinese community and the number is getting more and more day by day.

Many countries now concentrate on building GNP rather than GDP. So what China has done is a strategy to build its GNP.

This is true thanks for pointing out. China has multiple corporations abroad and not only they post chinese employees there you would see a complete chinese culture prevelant in that office like the office norms and canteen stuff would all be chinese, i have experienced this in a factory owned by chinese company. Even though there were Indian Employees and Ex-pat Chinese employees but both of them didn't intermingled with each other. I even saw the same in case of Japanese at Honda factory in India. This could be a possible reason of migration from China for sure.

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Quote from: stompix on July 29, 2020, 10:32:24 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on July 29, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

That's called taxes Wink

It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.

I'm afraid that's the half-empty way of looking at it. How about calling it social justice? Those who have much will have to give more and those who have little will have to give less. Moreover, those who have much will have to receive less and those who have little will have to receive more. But, yeah, those who scream the loudest will have to receive nothing. Grin

Anyway, millionaires are moving probably due to a combination of reasons: safety and security, better overall life experience, shirking tax responsibilities, and so on. And so I don't think converting their wealth from fiat into Bitcoin will make them stay.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: bitmover on July 28, 2020, 12:28:54 PM

With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.

Um, yeah....I don't know exactly what you mean by the above statement, but I don't think that's a legitimate strategy for people who aren't looking to do time in prison.

Quote from: LoyceV on July 29, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

Quote from: bitmover on July 28, 2020, 12:28:54 PM

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money.

That's called taxes Wink

And I can imagine this is a large reason for rich people to move to another country, while it's also a reason not to tax capital too much: countries don't want to scare off their rich people.

I'm not sure how much taxation has to do with this so-called millionaire migration. It does make sense if the tax advantages are huge and you have an extremely high income, but I really doubt most people would move to a different country for strictly economic reasons. Then again, I'm not massively wealthy and thus don't think like someone who is.

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Well, it is not only about repressive countries trying to battle it out with the millionaires. To make it more clear, when you live in a dictatorship like China, government wants a bribe from you because you are rich, since they are dictators they want you to accept them and like them and because you like them you should be bribing them anyway and if you don't that means you do not like them enough and that means you are against the dictator which is something every dictator hates, and that could be a cause to leave.

However another thing is, when you live in a country like China where there is a dictator, that is also a bad country to live in, you could be rich yourself but everyone and everything around you is poor, so when you are rich, why not go to a country that is much better and live a much better life?

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Quote from: slapper on July 29, 2020, 09:12:37 AM

Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad.

No, it's people that move, not the money, if you read the articles these are people who are getting out of those countries and choosing another, not for investment but to protect their money and in some other cases to protect their lives.
Having money in some of those listed above means you must also change your political views or learn to shut up!

Quote from: LoyceV on July 29, 2020, 12:54:46 AM

That's called taxes Wink

It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.
No wonder France has managed to get a place there when the crowds shout to tax the kulaks what choice you have?
There are countries that match France in normal taxes for the average Joe, but France was one of the last that scrapped the wealth tax in the EU, guess who put it there in the first place? It starts with Socialist and ends with Party Grin

Quote from: gentlemand on July 28, 2020, 01:38:31 PM

Would I rather live in a penthouse apartment in Murmansk or the Bahamas? The latter sounds a bit more fun.
Even if tax rates were lower in the place you left and there was no question of your wealth being nicked most people would still prefer to be somewhere that didn't make you want to top yourself every time you walked out your front door.

I don't know really, what if we compare Sochi to the Bahamas?
Once you get rid of the cold you are left with hurricanes, a crime rate 3 times that of Russia and 20 times that of Finland, vs learning to kiss each day a picture of Putin! Grin

Probably that's why Australia gets 6 times more than the entire Caribbean.

Anyhow, just as bitcoin won't be able to make watermelons grow in the Sahara it won't be able to change people's opinion and needs

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Bitcoin might help for the millionaires to hold their assets but I doubt they will simply hold their assets because people love to play with their money to make more money but if they are still in the same country then all the laws will be applied to them as well.So they are moving to a country where investments are encouraged, tax rate is fair and much more causes.

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Leaving emerging markets to immigrate into wealthy Western countries has been around for ages. Security, life expectancy, education, etc. are much better in Western countries. If I had the money I would also start moving west.
crypto currencies are a great tool for that, all you need is Internet access and you convert your money to different currencies such as bitcoins. The transaction fee is lower than in fiat currencies and you are independent of banks.
However if you have a nice portfolio of other financial assets with a global bank, you don't even need to see your assets just to move them around. A bank can easily do that for you. It might be even better to hold your stocks and bonds for now and just hedge any currency risk.
I would not put all my money into one currency.

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Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad. There are many places that can passively generate money for rich people. Lots of projects are being concerned and charities are covered many parts of our world.

Although bitcoin is a safe place for anyone who wants to avoid tax and inflation, it is not really bad to pay tax to the government. Can we live in the world without being controlled by the government? Are we dependent enough to live without relying in anyone? Bitcoin and other cryptos may take many years to be accepted as a currency and used. And I believe that the government will things to avoid this to happen.

Topic: Global Migration of Millionaires. Can Bitcoin change this scenario? - page 3. (Read 584 times)