Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 102. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
July 21, 2015, 11:39:34 PM
Meanwhile, I support the original min tx fee of 0.01 BTC, for reasons Sunny King described starting here.

If I'm not mistaken PPC burns the transaction fee. That's a function that doesn't exist in Bitcoin. I'm surprised that Sunny King didn't make the distinction in his otherwise insightful posts there.

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 11:16:54 PM
...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

Well, I was the *first* libertarian asshole who objected on principle to charging less that what the market will bear for the miraculous services Bitcoin offers.  OK maybe not literally first, but at least I'm obnoxiously pushy and outspoken... Tongue

Yep, micropayments are very much a theoretical problem in search of an on-chain solution.  (Reddit's admittedly nifty BitcoinTip thingy notwithstanding.)

I say we work out macropayments, and in the process obsolete the BIS and its subordinate TBTF bail-out munching zombies, then worry about getting paid 2 satoshis for some snarky comment about Kim Kardashian.

Meanwhile, I support the original min tx fee of 0.01 BTC, for reasons Sunny King described starting here.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
July 21, 2015, 11:10:51 PM
this one's lookin' good, eh' tvbcof?:

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
July 21, 2015, 11:09:41 PM
the once powerful Barrick Gold.  everything PM is looking sick:

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
July 21, 2015, 11:07:57 PM
Gold down already tonite.  Dow futures also down -73; that's not good:

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
July 21, 2015, 10:36:51 PM
And by "the risk of modifying the system", i mean the actual programming. I regard the current limit, or any programmed limit, as a form of defensive programming. Not as a rule inherent in the bitcoin system, as advised in the whitepaper.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
July 21, 2015, 10:26:44 PM
OROBTC:

I think you nailed the essence of the two views. But there is consequences for the current users:

With high capacity, more people will be able to use bitcoin, which is a clear advantage for the current users, because the bitcoins we have will be more liquid, and possibly higher priced.

With low capacity, there is a lower max limit to how many users there can be, because the higher fees will detract some use cases. Bluntly said, in the low capacity/high fee scenario, I might want to trade with someone that is not already a user, I have to suggest bitcoin to him, teach him everything, and if he becomes a new user, someone else is pressed out by the high fees.

I clearly favor the high capacity scenario on these grounds. Not here taking into account the risk of modifying the system.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1895
July 21, 2015, 10:12:48 PM
...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 09:39:51 PM
Quote
so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network, who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if 99% of the fee is subsidized by the cab company.  

very apt analogy

We're getting at the crux at the issue here, and thus now in danger of productive discourse occurring.

Continuing with the semi-apt metaphor of Uber's now-canonical salient example of Disruption, let us note Uber, Lyft, and Sidecar are burning copious amounts of VC funding to subsidize their ridesharing customers/drivers, so great is their fetish for market share.

Their question is to what extent is it rational to subsidize rides in order to gain market share, and our own is to what extent their model should be emulated.

(If I knew how to calculate that, I'd be too busy making big bucks programming high-frequency option trading bots to post here...)

But Bitcoin's equivalents of VC largess (block reward subsidizes and charitable community good will) do not operate on the same ROI calculus, so the metaphor breaks down quickly and catastrophically.

And thus our community cleaves (perhaps fatally) into two halves, one favoring even more generous user subsidies for the sake of Metcalfe's Law, and the other (asshole Libertarians all), who object on principle to charging less that what the market will bear for the miraculous services Bitcoin offers.
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
July 21, 2015, 09:02:31 PM

[/quote]

so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network, who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if 99% of the fee is subsidized by the cab company.  
[/quote]

very apt analogy
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
July 21, 2015, 08:48:17 PM


Peter Todd is right. Comically low fees isn't a promise Bitcoin made in the first place.

Quote
@jgarzik Any announcement like that would be giving the impression that we're in control of the system, which simply isn't true. The Bitcoin protocol itself has always obviously had a transaction rate limit and associated economic consequences. We've done a bad job in communicating that fact to the general public, but doing that correctly requires a very different message than "we've changing a policy which previously meant txs were cheap, and now will mean they're expensive" - we simply don't have that level of control because Bitcoin is a decentralized system.

tl;dr: Don't try to blame the Bitcoin Core developers for a fundamental property of the Bitcoin protocol itself.

so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network. Who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if somewhere between 100% and 96% of the fee was subsidized by the cab company.  
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 08:35:54 PM


Peter Todd is right. Comically low fees isn't a promise Bitcoin made in the first place.

Quote
@jgarzik Any announcement like that would be giving the impression that we're in control of the system, which simply isn't true. The Bitcoin protocol itself has always obviously had a transaction rate limit and associated economic consequences. We've done a bad job in communicating that fact to the general public, but doing that correctly requires a very different message than "we've changing a policy which previously meant txs were cheap, and now will mean they're expensive" - we simply don't have that level of control because Bitcoin is a decentralized system.

tl;dr: Don't try to blame the Bitcoin Core developers for a fundamental property of the Bitcoin protocol itself.



Nice to see PT, L-JR, DRAK, and especially Davout rekking the Gavincoiner Free Shit Army.

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 502
July 21, 2015, 07:48:27 PM


Peter Todd is right. Comically low fees isn't a promise Bitcoin made in the first place.

Quote
@jgarzik Any announcement like that would be giving the impression that we're in control of the system, which simply isn't true. The Bitcoin protocol itself has always obviously had a transaction rate limit and associated economic consequences. We've done a bad job in communicating that fact to the general public, but doing that correctly requires a very different message than "we've changing a policy which previously meant txs were cheap, and now will mean they're expensive" - we simply don't have that level of control because Bitcoin is a decentralized system.

tl;dr: Don't try to blame the Bitcoin Core developers for a fundamental property of the Bitcoin protocol itself.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
July 21, 2015, 06:50:14 PM

30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC.

'cuz everything one reads after looking for 30 seconds on the internet is totally 100% true, right?

I didn't make any claims about the truth value of "everything one reads after looking for 30 seconds on the internet."

I said "30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC."

If you're going run away from the specific fact in question, retreat into generalities, and play baby games like solipsism, I'm done with you.

Adios Amigo

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 06:31:15 PM

30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC.

'cuz everything one reads after looking for 30 seconds on the internet is totally 100% true, right?

I didn't make any claims about the truth value of "everything one reads after looking for 30 seconds on the internet."

I said "30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC."

If you're going run away from the specific fact in question, retreat into generalities, and play baby games like solipsism, I'm done with you.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
July 21, 2015, 06:20:24 PM

30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC.

'cuz everything one reads after looking for 30 seconds on the internet is totally 100% true, right?


If you spent 1% of the time researching that you spend on rambling counterfactual speculation, you would already know that.

My hypothesis are based on things which are very factual indeed.  It takes contortions like yours and Zwhatever's to come up with alternatives to the hypothesis that cypherdoc best fits the description of 'predatory scammer'.  Observations apart from his Hashfast shilling only lend strength.

And like a True Liberal you breathlessly and carelessly invoke the victimological frame, casting Frap.doc as a predator.

The problem with that (besides your lack of basic contextual knowledge) is that HF customers (EG icebreaker, gmax, Frap.doc, etc.) were not "little fish" possessing no agency and doomed to be the witless, hapless prey of Evil HF Inc.

I'm not complaining about being victimized in the least.  Cypherdoc has impacted my own financial actions not at all over the years but I feel bad for those who have listened to his bullshit.  And I already knew that investing in mining gear was a loser just from simple basic analysis.  Investing in pie-in-the-sky hypothetical gear at some point in the future is so retarded that I can hardly believe anyone fell for it.  Especially gmax (although he did make some poor decisions related to Mt. Gox IIRC, so it seems that he doesn't exactly have the best judgement in investments/bets at all times.)  Perhaps gmax wanted some sha256 ASIC tech for other purposes than making money mining Bitcoin.  That is the only reason I've ever bought any ASIC gear.

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 05:57:23 PM
- Is there any question that cypherdoc accepted money to shill for Hashfast?

 - Is there any question that people who sent money to Hashfast didn't get what they expected in return?

 - Is there any question that some of that money which victims used to control is now controlled by cypherdoc?

- No, that fact was prominently disclosed in Frap.doc's HF OP, as everyone else noticed two years ago

- No, but that has zero bearing on an explicitly paid endorser's sales commission

- Yes, because you are begging the question by using the loaded conclusive term "victims" without proper justification, and even if you used the proper term "customers" that has zero bearing on an explicitly paid endorser's sales commission
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 05:50:22 PM
I apologize for not realizing that Hashfast actually did eventually get something delivered (apparently.)  I've not researched things enough to figure out whether Hashfast just bought a few of obsolete chips left over from the old days for a few cents and shipped them to fulfill some obligation and help them get by in court.  Doesn't matter since nobody can make a dime one way or another.

As is the case since I got involved, it just makes sense to either buy Bitcoin or sit on cash waiting to do so.  By the laws of economics few if any people are going to make any money mining except in temporary and corner-case scenarios.  Any semi-competent analyst could tell you that (and I have a number of times.)

Naturally it is very possible to make a ton of money scamming people who are not bright enough to see why mining economically futile.  Lots of people have made a ton doing so.  If cypherdoc had publicly informed people of this opportunity to put other people's money into their own pockets I would have some respect for him as a human being.  That he kept it to himself and put ton of other people's money into is own pocket by this means makes it so that I have to respect his ability to correctly read the ecosystem.  It only makes him more of a Lowelife in my book though.

Cypherdoc displays the worst aspects of Libertarianism and none of the good ones.  Big fish scam little fish in a cold hard world and any attempts for the little fish to form schools to mitigate the threat are bad.  At the same time he fully adopts the Socialist line that everyone should be subsidized in order to enjoy the benefits of Bitcoin without paying for them.  Just like most real Socialists he is likely just wishing to fatten up the small fish to they are a more fulfilling mouthful at some point in the future and much easier to catch.

30 seconds on the The Google is sufficient to ascertain the fact HF made the the first 3rd gen 28nm BTC mining ASIC.

If you spent 1% of the time researching that you spend on rambling counterfactual speculation, you would already know that.

And like a True Liberal you breathlessly and carelessly invoke the victimological frame, casting Frap.doc as a predator.

The problem with that (besides your lack of basic contextual knowledge) is that HF customers (EG icebreaker, gmax, Frap.doc, etc.) were not "little fish" possessing no agency and doomed to be the witless, hapless prey of Evil HF Inc.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 21, 2015, 05:38:55 PM
my, my.  the anger is getting obvious.  no wonder tvbcof is going off:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3e34x7/do_you_remember_gold_it_was_kind_of_an_analog/ctb3zwz

"Do you remember gold? It was kind of an analog bitcoin."

No "anger" here; I laughed out loud at that one.   Cheesy

But as a buyer, I am loving these low PM prices.   Cool
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