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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1053. (Read 2032274 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
August 03, 2014, 11:07:29 AM
While the concept of a "necessary backing" is a fallacy in my book
"Backing" is a kind of awkward hack that attempts to limit the production of currency.

It never really worked in the first place, and it's completely unnecessary now that we can just use math to limit the supply of the currency.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
August 03, 2014, 11:03:25 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

In fact, it is.
Bitcoin is backed by many things.
Everything for which you can redeem your bitcoin is what backs it.
The math and software and block chain hashing make bitcoin valuable, but that is different from backing.  Backing requires redeemability.

Quote
The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
This is not a true gold standard.  If it were, then a fixed amount of bitcoin would be directly redeemable for a fixed amount of gold.  This cannot exist in a trusless environment.  What you speak of are just market rates.  By your logic, the Argentinian peso is backed by gold.

There is no true Scotsman.

If you define 'true gold standard' as one of the many gold standards that have existed in history and literature you can pick one that doesn't match the facts of today.

The gold standards elucidated by Richard Salsman's excellent work "Gold and Liberty" published by the AEIR list many including probably the one you are thinking of, and presents very strong evidence for what would be the best and ultimate gold standard, one based on the free market rather than a centralized authorities proclamation.  Very close to what you dismiss as 'just market rates' is a gold standard that can stand the test of time.


Quote
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.

Gold and silver cannot be sent over the internet.  Period.  All you can do is send an IOU for gold or silver over the internet, which requires third party trust.  Bitcoin gives us 1 and 3 but not 2.  All 3 cannot exist simultaneously.  Unless someone can make all 3 happen at the same time, then bitcoin is our best option.

I would suggest that all three can (and do) exist simultaneously, and that with all three, Bitcoin remains our best option.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
August 03, 2014, 11:01:11 AM

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.


It is backed by gold it's backed by the productive wealth of those who choose to be part of the ledger.

If my memory serves Cypher backed Bitcoin with gold by using the dollar as a proxy. Even the likes of Schiff are backing Bitcoin with gold, they're using BitPay as a proxy.

Backing with gold is an idea whose time had gone, Bitcoin is backed by much more ultimately it's faith in the maths that governs the ledger.

While the concept of a "necessary backing" is a fallacy in my book, I did like this definition I heard early in my bitcoin days:

"Bitcoin is backed by the lack of faith in central bankers and politicians."
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
August 03, 2014, 10:51:08 AM

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.


It is backed by gold it's backed by the productive wealth of those who choose to be part of the ledger.

If my memory serves Cypher backed Bitcoin with gold by using the dollar as a proxy. Even the likes of Schiff are backing Bitcoin with gold, they're using BitPay as a proxy.

Backing with gold is an idea whose time had gone, Bitcoin is backed by much more ultimately it's faith in the maths that governs the ledger.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
August 03, 2014, 10:47:41 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

Quote
The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
This is not a true gold standard.  If it were, then a fixed amount of bitcoin would be directly redeemable for a fixed amount of gold.  This cannot exist in a trusless environment.  What you speak of are just market rates.  By your logic, the Argentinian peso is backed by gold.

Quote
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.

Gold and silver cannot be sent over the internet.  Period.  All you can do is send an IOU for gold or silver over the internet, which requires third party trust.  Bitcoin gives us 1 and 3 but not 2.  All 3 cannot exist simultaneously.  Unless someone can make all 3 happen at the same time, then bitcoin is our best option.

Bitcoin doesn't need backing any more than gold does. They are both scarce commodities that are valued in the marketplace for the utility that they provide.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 03, 2014, 09:16:19 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

I hereby promise to give 1 oz of gold for 21,000,000 BTC or fractions of 1 oz of gold for respective fractions of Bitcoin to anyone who is willing to meet me in person. PM me if you want to redeem.

Here we go. Bitcoin is backed by gold.


Of course, you all know that backing is a concept that only applies at the institutional level of gubmint, the emitter of paper fiat. If they aren't willing to play ball by backing their worthless paper with Bitcoin, or even gold, your attempts to prove a point are pointless. That is what is required along with a free and open market in Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 03, 2014, 09:09:42 AM
"In other words, were we to return to panic mode, the value of the implied taxpayer backing would rocket. The threat of high-cost taxpayer bailouts remains very much with us."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/business/big-banks-still-a-risk.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0&referrer=
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
August 03, 2014, 02:41:33 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

I hereby promise to give 1 oz of gold for 21,000,000 BTC or fractions of 1 oz of gold for respective fractions of Bitcoin to anyone who is willing to meet me in person. PM me if you want to redeem.

Here we go. Bitcoin is backed by gold.
hero member
Activity: 622
Merit: 500
August 03, 2014, 02:36:59 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

Quote
The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
This is not a true gold standard.  If it were, then a fixed amount of bitcoin would be directly redeemable for a fixed amount of gold.  This cannot exist in a trusless environment.  What you speak of are just market rates.  By your logic, the Argentinian peso is backed by gold.

Quote
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.

Gold and silver cannot be sent over the internet.  Period.  All you can do is send an IOU for gold or silver over the internet, which requires third party trust.  Bitcoin gives us 1 and 3 but not 2.  All 3 cannot exist simultaneously.  Unless someone can make all 3 happen at the same time, then bitcoin is our best option.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 01:37:35 PM
I wish I could sell aall my gold for BTC, but its so little that its not worth it
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
August 02, 2014, 12:59:01 PM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 02, 2014, 12:35:03 PM
and the other side...



Draw it for yourself  Wink

Nice, I haven't seen that one before.  Shocked

lol annunaki

zomg evil lizards from planet x

quick ma, hide the gold!   Grin
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 02, 2014, 12:07:59 PM
Bears weakening:

hero member
Activity: 622
Merit: 500
August 02, 2014, 09:56:42 AM
The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
August 01, 2014, 09:25:36 PM
By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


hehe if you superimpose the pyramid with its opposite it completes a Star of David whose points point to



and the other side...




Draw it for yourself  Wink
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
August 01, 2014, 08:39:48 PM
He doesn't understand that an algorithm of consensus is superior to authority. Turk get's it.
When did you change your mind on this subject?
huh? I've always been a Bitcoin permabull. The minor issues I've had were regarding absolute anonymity and scalability. I need to make a trip to Austin one day soon, probably later this month.
Last time I remember you had some different thoughts about effective governments would be at dictating the fate of cryptocurrencies.

I appreciate the sentiment of the anti-establishment people. Prisons and unemployment lines are full of them. The best way to win a war isn't always a direct assault. I'm in the long game. My goal is to eliminate the need for money as well as governments. To me, Bitcoin is just a transitional technology that will help us get there and help me with my rapidly approaching golden years.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
August 01, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
Couldnt say I agree on that one even though Madoff did accuse the same and to be fair he really isnt that far wrong.   much as I hate to say it, government does have a use, provide a utility for its operation.  It might be a giant leaky bucket of failing inefficency and dangerously self justified and self serving convolution but there is some water carried and tasks of some use to society.  Some functions of government do provide security.  Its often the case that private companies would be superior not that government operations are totally false.

  A true pyramid money really does go in one end  and is never to be seen again hence is no where near to investment at all

Madoff ran a ponzi. He deceived his customers. A pyramid is open, everybody knows the endgame. (Most people underestimate the speed of which an exponential function increases). Bitcoin could be understood as a pyramid, except the endgame is not expected to be crash and burn.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 01, 2014, 08:23:11 PM
best not ignore:

STT
legendary
Activity: 4102
Merit: 1454
August 01, 2014, 08:03:03 PM
Couldnt say I agree on that one even though Madoff did accuse the same and to be fair he really isnt that far wrong.   much as I hate to say it, government does have a use, provide a utility for its operation.  It might be a giant leaky bucket of failing inefficency and dangerously self justified and self serving convolution but there is some water carried and tasks of some use to society.  Some functions of government do provide security.  Its often the case that private companies would be superior not that government operations are totally false.

  A true pyramid money really does go in one end  and is never to be seen again hence is no where near to investment at all
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 01, 2014, 08:01:36 PM
By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


hehe if you superimpose the pyramid with its opposite it completes a Star of David whose points point to


no mas?  Grin
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