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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1098. (Read 2032266 times)

full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
July 05, 2014, 09:08:45 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

Aren't you confusing the stake (which can be reused to provide signaling for many transactions over time) with the coins (which can only be used once)?

The stake is worthless as far as I can tell. Stake is just showing someone what you own, not actually giving it to them. Would someone pay me just because I show them that I have a lot of money in my wallet? I can show what's in there a million times without losing a cent.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
July 05, 2014, 03:53:23 PM
your a bit well behind the times man! lol

Yeah, I guess I should have signed up with Chuck for the mailing list.  The definition of the coin apparently changes monthly.  Crypto 2.0: The future of money indeed.   / sarc

It is not very reassuring to read the assertations that PoS is fine, because not only are they incorrect, but also they reveal that the monetary architects of PoS thingies are not well versed in monetary economics.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
July 05, 2014, 03:42:17 PM
your a bit well behind the times man! lol

Yeah, I guess I should have signed up with Chuck for the mailing list.  The definition of the coin apparently changes monthly.  Crypto 2.0: The future of money indeed.   / sarc
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
July 05, 2014, 03:32:52 PM
Nxt does not suffer from the nothing at stake issue and I'm not sure that it still uses checkpoints either.

Are there Nxt bots or something that scan the forum for the terms "PoS" and "Nxt" and send alerts to the Nxt pumpers?  It seems you can't use either of those words without attracting the them.

Anyways, last time I dipped my toe into the PoS debate, that very day Cryptsy's Nxt node went down apparently due to a blockchain convergence issue.  I entered the Nxt thread and found this jewel complete with the bright-red 20pt font formatting:

Okay, guys. I need to bother you once more:
Please update to 1.1.3 as 1.1.0 is somewhat broken.
Maybe that's the problem that cryptsy us having is there transactions are not going through. They might be on a fork.
Anyone let them know, please.
Ah, yes. And they should tell me if they wish to be added to our future update-mailing-list .

I found the nonchalant manner that the network fork possibility was dealt with quite telling: just send out new updated code and make sure you join our mailing list!  

Anyways, if it is true that checkpoints are now eliminated, then the cabal of large Nxt holders could very likely sell their coins but keep the associated private keys, wait a while, and then launch a nothing-at-stake attack to reclaim their coins.



your a bit well behind the times man! lol

and if your so sure it can be done, why dont you do it? im sure the nxt guys would put a hefty bet on with you that you or anyone cant do it.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
July 05, 2014, 03:22:35 PM
Nxt does not suffer from the nothing at stake issue and I'm not sure that it still uses checkpoints either.

Are there Nxt bots or something that scan the forum for the terms "PoS" and "Nxt" and send alerts to the Nxt pumpers?  It seems you can't use either of those words without attracting them.

Anyways, last time I dipped my toe into the PoS debate, that very day Cryptsy's Nxt node went down apparently due to a blockchain convergence issue.  I entered the Nxt thread and found this jewel complete with the bright-red 20pt font formatting:

Okay, guys. I need to bother you once more:
Please update to 1.1.3 as 1.1.0 is somewhat broken.
Maybe that's the problem that cryptsy us having is there transactions are not going through. They might be on a fork.
Anyone let them know, please.
Ah, yes. And they should tell me if they wish to be added to our future update-mailing-list .

I found the nonchalant manner that the network fork possibility was dealt with quite telling: just send out new updated code and make sure you join our mailing list!  

Anyways, if it is true that checkpoints are now eliminated, then the cabal of large Nxt holders could very likely sell their coins but keep the associated private keys, wait a while, and then launch a nothing-at-stake attack to reclaim their coins.

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
July 05, 2014, 03:09:07 PM
What I think we need, and I was talking with Chris Wilmer about this a few months ago, is to launch a peer-reviewed journal J Bitcoin, to help put an end to derpfests like these tireless PoS debates.  This way, we can point to a well-written article, reviewed by experts in the field, to both disseminate the work of our community more effectively and make the true state of knowledge more clear.  I would donate 1 BTC to such a cause if we had a credible plan to make the journal happen.
https://github.com/NakamotoInstitute/nakamotoinstitute.org
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
July 05, 2014, 03:05:08 PM
What about NXTs way of doing pos? Much better then peercoin,  safe from 51%, cheap, green, faster confirmations and potentially instant confirmations on the way. Seems like a much better system to me.
PoS$ Proof of Scam is worthless crap. nxt does not have to worry about 51% "BCNext" and friends have full control of the coin everyone else dances to the music they play.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/real-honest-money-674029
Start of nxt
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-nxt-descendant-of-bitcoin-303898
The second post is already talking about police and the 3rd post is quoting a post which is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted. There is 1 Billion of them available and most trades are a few hundreds.

I dont like when people start spamming with their NXT pump and dump, same with dark, i dont see sucess in any of those coins.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
July 05, 2014, 03:03:51 PM
What about NXTs way of doing pos? Much better then peercoin,  safe from 51%, cheap, green, faster confirmations and potentially instant confirmations on the way. Seems like a much better system to me.
PoS$ Proof of Scam is worthless crap. nxt does not have to worry about 51% "BCNext" and friends have full control of the coin everyone else dances to the music they play.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/real-honest-money-674029
Start of nxt
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-nxt-descendant-of-bitcoin-303898
The second post is already talking about police and the 3rd post is quoting a post which is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted. There is 1 Billion of them available and most trades are a few hundreds.

enter nem. evenly split 3000 ways. taint analysis used to remove sockpuppets. 1m nem per stake holder. cant get much better distribution for apos coin than that.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1001
Energy is Wealth
July 05, 2014, 03:01:13 PM
What about NXTs way of doing pos? Much better then peercoin,  safe from 51%, cheap, green, faster confirmations and potentially instant confirmations on the way. Seems like a much better system to me.
PoS$ Proof of Scam is worthless crap. nxt does not have to worry about 51% "BCNext" and friends have full control of the coin everyone else dances to the music they play.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/real-honest-money-674029
Start of nxt
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-nxt-descendant-of-bitcoin-303898
The second post is already talking about police and the 3rd post is quoting a post which is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted. There is 1 Billion of them available and most trades are a few hundreds.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
July 05, 2014, 02:56:33 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.
The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.


No.  The "signalling system" for PoS is based on coins which have value now or which had value at some point in the past.  An attacker can use coins that have already been legitimately spent (i.e., he has nothing at stake) to attempt to "re-write history" in his favour, thereby creating a new "best" chain where his coins haven't been spent.  This is the "nothing-at-stake" or "history-rewrite" problem1.  

Before one can even intelligently debate PoS, one must at least review the original proof-of-stake thread here, the many highly-refined thoughts by DeathAndTaxes (CEO of BitSimple) here, and perhaps Andytoshi's work in Section 5 of this document.  One must understand the nothing-at-stake problem.

What I think we need, and I was talking with Chris Wilmer about this a few months ago, is to launch a peer-reviewed journal J Bitcoin, to help put an end to derpfests like these tireless PoS debates.  This way, we can point to a well-written article, reviewed by experts in the field, to both disseminate the work of our community more effectively and make the true state of knowledge more clear.  I would donate 1 BTC to such a cause if we had a credible plan to make the journal happen.


1Current PoS coins get around this problem, for example, by having the developers sign blocks as valid (Peercoin) or by introducing regular blockchain checkpoints into the code (Nxt).  In other words, these PoS coins are not decentralized.

Nxt does not suffer from the nothing at stake issue and I'm not sure that it still uses checkpoints either.
44
no, nxt doesnt use checkpoints anymore.
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2014, 02:49:01 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.
The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.


No.  The "signalling system" for PoS is based on coins which have value now or which had value at some point in the past.  An attacker can use coins that have already been legitimately spent (i.e., he has nothing at stake) to attempt to "re-write history" in his favour, thereby creating a new "best" chain where his coins haven't been spent.  This is the "nothing-at-stake" or "history-rewrite" problem1.  

Before one can even intelligently debate PoS, one must at least review the original proof-of-stake thread here, the many highly-refined thoughts by DeathAndTaxes (CEO of BitSimple) here, and perhaps Andytoshi's work in Section 5 of this document.  One must understand the nothing-at-stake problem.

What I think we need, and I was talking with Chris Wilmer about this a few months ago, is to launch a peer-reviewed journal J Bitcoin, to help put an end to derpfests like these tireless PoS debates.  This way, we can point to a well-written article, reviewed by experts in the field, to both disseminate the work of our community more effectively and make the true state of knowledge more clear.  I would donate 1 BTC to such a cause if we had a credible plan to make the journal happen.


1Current PoS coins get around this problem, for example, by having the developers sign blocks as valid (Peercoin) or by introducing regular blockchain checkpoints into the code (Nxt).  In other words, these PoS coins are not decentralized.

Nxt does not suffer from the nothing at stake issue and I'm not sure that it still uses checkpoints either.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
July 05, 2014, 02:43:36 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.
The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.


No.  The "signalling system" for PoS is based on coins which have value now or which had value at some point in the past.  An attacker can use coins that have already been legitimately spent (i.e., he has nothing at stake) to attempt to "re-write history" in his favour, thereby creating a new "best" chain where his coins haven't been spent.  This is the "nothing-at-stake" or "history-rewrite" problem1

Before one can even intelligently debate PoS, one must at least review the original proof-of-stake thread here, the many highly-refined thoughts by DeathAndTaxes (CEO of BitSimple) here, and perhaps Andytoshi's work in Section 5 of this documentOne must understand the nothing-at-stake problem.

What I think we need, and I was talking with Chris Wilmer about this a few months ago, is to launch a peer-reviewed journal J Bitcoin, to help put an end to derpfests like these tireless PoS debates.  This way, we can point to a well-written article, reviewed by experts in the field, to both disseminate the work of our community more effectively and make the true state of knowledge more clear.  I would donate 1 BTC to such a cause if we had a credible plan to make the journal happen.


1Current PoS coins get around this problem, for example, by having the developers sign blocks as valid (Peercoin) or by introducing regular blockchain checkpoints into the code (Nxt).  In other words, these PoS coins are not decentralized.
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2014, 02:40:56 PM
What about NXTs way of doing pos? Much better then peercoin,  safe from 51%, cheap, green, faster confirmations and potentially instant confirmations on the way. Seems like a much better system to me.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
July 05, 2014, 02:37:48 PM
PoW = economics of scale and division of labor guarantee eventual centralization.

Not necessarily: a byproduct of mining is heat. It's hard to get rid of the heat in large centralized operations. In small operations less so, it may even be useful in some cases.

At some point mining cost will mostly be energy, not hardware. I've recently encountered a weird situation regarding solar electricity production (pretty decentralized in germany, where I live): in certain cases the array produces excess electricity which can neither be used locally nor fed into the grid for profit (due to stupid laws and regulations). Usually what is done in such cases is the electricity is just injected for free to the grid... what a waste economically, right? Well, if you have some cheap asics (so cheap that you can just have them laying around idle if not needed) you can make good use of the excess electricity.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
July 05, 2014, 01:59:50 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.

The systemic incentives are opposite though.  Where PoW encourages decentralization, PoS encourages centralization.
Really???
PoS = anyone can/does and even possibly is forced to mine with any size investment. 
PoW = economics of scale and division of labor guarantee eventual centralization.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
July 05, 2014, 01:42:40 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.

The systemic incentives are opposite though.  Where PoW encourages decentralization, PoS encourages centralization.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
July 05, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
Down to 35% Wink

LOL... or is it?

Big fish in a lot of little pools...
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
July 05, 2014, 01:38:29 PM
PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

The criterion of having no value is a theoretically sound one for proof of work systems. I am not convinced it's correct to apply this criterion to proof of stake systems the way you did it, because PoS and PoW solve the distributed consensus problem in a different manner. Let me try to explain:

What's the reason behind the criterion that the calculations in a PoW system must have no value (either practical or intellectual)? This simply to increase the cost for an outsider to successfully attack the system, right? To ensure that "telling the truth" is more profitable than "lying".

With PoS, the signalling system is indeed based on coins which have value. This means outsiders (those who don't own coins) can't influence the signalling system. The coins however only have value as long as the system functions as it should (the same is of course true for PoW systems). I therefore think this system also ensures that "telling the truth" (which makes the system functions as it should) is more profitable than "lying", and could thus be a viable mechanism for honest signalling.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
July 05, 2014, 10:27:24 AM
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
July 05, 2014, 09:52:54 AM
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