Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 268. (Read 2032248 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 02:14:18 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.

Maybe its worth giving them the benefit of the doubt them. I have zero investment in sidechains, and I don't even think that sidechains even work!

Of course you could claim that I just care about sabotaging Bitcoin because Monero, but you'd be wrong about that too.

Maybe it is possible that people who actually understand the technology just have serious doubts about Gavin's approach of scaling it up the way you scale up a web site?


i'm sure some do but i think it's also true that Bitcoin can never be safe nor become a true currency unless it experiences "wider" adoption.  with 1MB, i don't think there is any doubt we get stuck where we are in terms of adoption.  i think even the skeptics see this and is why they're "hedging" the argument now by saying they're all in favor of an increase but it's a matter of how much and when.  at least from "our" standpoint, that's some progress.

the "wider" adoption is the question.  i firmly believe that we should push the tech hard to test it's limits.  the further out it spreads to the far ends of the earth, the safer and more successful Bitcoin will be.  that would be the ultimate decentralization which no gvt could reverse.  we'll never know unless we try.  the fall back is we could pull back the block size if we had to.  

i don't know man, I kind of feel the opposite, that getting nodes and miners spread out to the corners of the earth is more important to resisting hostile takeover than users. The former is probably helped by keeping the scale of transactions under control, not by increasing it.


if you've been reading my posts recently you'll know i feel that is a fundamental misunderstanding by you devs.  you view the full node as the fundamental unit of the system whereas i feel it is the user.  my view is supported by phenoms like Uber, AirBnb, Facebook and just about every other successful internet company out there who scrambled to scarf up users as fast as they could before regulations kicked in or before their competitors could react.  that way the gvt couldn't very well say no to all their same constituents who voted them in who were also using these new services.  

the way i see it, full nodes are similar to ACH or Swift services which is just the plumbing of the system dominated and driven by users.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 02:09:24 AM
I read reddit w/o posting.  Have you seen anyone with my mouth there?  No, you have not.


iCE with his mouth zipped?  my lord, there is a god!

you know from now on whenever i post there slinging shit at the Blockstream guys, i will be smiling to myself knowing you can't say anything. Grin
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 07, 2015, 02:08:58 AM
I have zero investment in sidechains, and I don't even think that sidechains even work!

Of course you could claim that I just care about sabotaging Bitcoin because Monero, but you'd be wrong about that too.

Maybe it is possible that people who actually understand the technology just have serious doubts about Gavin's approach of scaling it up the way you scale up a web site?


☐ Not REKT
☑ REKT
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 07, 2015, 02:07:49 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.

Maybe its worth giving them the benefit of the doubt them. I have zero investment in sidechains, and I don't even think that sidechains even work!

Of course you could claim that I just care about sabotaging Bitcoin because Monero, but you'd be wrong about that too.

Maybe it is possible that people who actually understand the technology just have serious doubts about Gavin's approach of scaling it up the way you scale up a web site?


i'm sure some do but i think it's also true that Bitcoin can never be safe nor become a true currency unless it experiences "wider" adoption.  with 1MB, i don't think there is any doubt we get stuck where we are in terms of adoption.  i think even the skeptics see this and is why they're "hedging" the argument now by saying they're all in favor of an increase but it's a matter of how much and when.  at least from "our" standpoint, that's some progress.

the "wider" adoption is the question.  i firmly believe that we should push the tech hard to test it's limits.  the further out it spreads to the far ends of the earth, the safer and more successful Bitcoin will be.  that would be the ultimate decentralization which no gvt could reverse.  we'll never know unless we try.  the fall back is we could pull back the block size if we had to. 

i don't know man, I kind of feel the opposite, that getting nodes and miners spread out to the corners of the earth is more important to resisting hostile takeover than users. The former is probably helped by keeping the scale of transactions under control, not by increasing it.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 07, 2015, 02:05:01 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.

We can't agree on an ex nihilo/a priori definition ahead of time, but when the "last minute" comes we will know it.

who just reads reddit w/o posting?  esp someone with your mouth?  you know you wouldn't be able to help yourself.

I read reddit w/o posting.  Have you seen anyone with my mouth there?  No, you have not.

gmax casts his pearls of wisdom before the Redditurd Gavinista cargo-cultist swine; I will not.  This venue is much more well suited to my refined tastes and high expectations of intellect.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 02:02:39 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.

Maybe its worth giving them the benefit of the doubt them. I have zero investment in sidechains, and I don't even think that sidechains even work!

Of course you could claim that I just care about sabotaging Bitcoin because Monero, but you'd be wrong about that too.

Maybe it is possible that people who actually understand the technology just have serious doubts about Gavin's approach of scaling it up the way you scale up a web site?


i'm sure some do but i think it's also true that Bitcoin can never be safe nor become a true currency unless it experiences "wider" adoption.  with 1MB, i don't think there is any doubt we get stuck where we are in terms of adoption.  i think even the skeptics see this and is why they're "hedging" the argument now by saying they're all in favor of an increase but it's a matter of how much and when.  at least from "our" standpoint, that's some progress.

the "wider" adoption is the question.  i firmly believe that we should push the tech hard to test it's limits.  the further out it spreads to the far ends of the earth, the safer and more successful Bitcoin will be.  that would be the ultimate decentralization which no gvt could reverse.  we'll never know unless we try.  the fall back is we could pull back the block size if we had to. 
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 07, 2015, 01:56:55 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.

Maybe its worth giving them the benefit of the doubt then. I have zero investment in sidechains, and I don't even think that sidechains even work!

Of course you could claim that I just care about sabotaging Bitcoin because Monero, but you'd be wrong about that too.

Maybe it is possible that people who actually understand the technology just have serious doubts about Gavin's approach of scaling it up the way you scale up a web site?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 01:56:40 AM
oh iCE, you're impossible  Wink

btw, you didn't answer phoenix this morning:

I'd rather be an impossible person with a clue about the world of mining pools than a protectionist who spouts off about affairs of which they know little.   Grin

My take on phoenix is the same as smooth and lukejr's.  IE:  Full blocks?  Good!

the "hard crash" theory is wrong. If we are already hitting the limit regularly, then the system is able to handle that. People will learn to use higher tx fees to prioritize urgent transactions, just as they learned to stop using zero fee for urgent transactions a year or two ago, and slightly longer term probably a bunch of spam will get forced off the network altogether. The market mechanism is working.

I've personally run into very slow confirms of low-fee-paying transactions twice, but it wasn't he end of the world (with a ten minute avg block time you have to be prepared for slow confirms anyway). The next time I do a transaction if I care about urgency I'll probably increase the fee a little above the default.

You need to accept the existence of trade-offs between security and convenience.  A distributed, profoundly antifragile system designed for settlement cannot be everywhere all the time, instantly.


first you claim gmax is schooling me over on Reddit, then i give you a link showing i'm schooling him based on upvotes, you then tell me you're going to take over for him, and now you're telling me you don't go over there?

can you be any more misleading?

Don't call me a liar.  I admitted to browsing nullc and other core dev commentary when linked from here.  You don't have to have an account or log in to read Reddit.

Once again, if I were posting there you would recognize my inimitable writing style (unless you've gone full paranoid and believe I'd adopt a different persona).

You know full well I've had in the past vicious quarrels with gmax.  But the truth is he has in recent posts been making a fool of you, green arrows notwithstanding.

As for upvotes from Gavinista redditards, it pains me to witness the once-mighty cypherdoc reduced to argumentum ad populum.   Cry

who just reads reddit w/o posting?  esp someone with your mouth?  you know you wouldn't be able to help yourself.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 01:52:23 AM
I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).



$100 was just pulled out of my ass.  but your response illustrates exactly what i was saying the other day.  i contend that lukejr and gmax would say the same thing, they don't know that $100/tx would be fine.  according to them it could be based on whether they see Bitcoin as a reserve currency or b/c they are financially captured and wish to see their SC's benefit.

pt being, there is no sense waiting for the "last minute" b/c no one will agree what the "last minute" is.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 07, 2015, 01:51:47 AM
oh iCE, you're impossible  Wink

btw, you didn't answer phoenix this morning:

I'd rather be an impossible person with a clue about the world of mining pools than a protectionist who spouts off about affairs of which they know little.   Grin

My take on phoenix is the same as smooth and lukejr's.  IE:  Full blocks?  Good!

the "hard crash" theory is wrong. If we are already hitting the limit regularly, then the system is able to handle that. People will learn to use higher tx fees to prioritize urgent transactions, just as they learned to stop using zero fee for urgent transactions a year or two ago, and slightly longer term probably a bunch of spam will get forced off the network altogether. The market mechanism is working.

I've personally run into very slow confirms of low-fee-paying transactions twice, but it wasn't he end of the world (with a ten minute avg block time you have to be prepared for slow confirms anyway). The next time I do a transaction if I care about urgency I'll probably increase the fee a little above the default.

You need to accept the existence of trade-offs between security and convenience.  A distributed, profoundly antifragile system designed for settlement cannot be everywhere all the time, instantly.


first you claim gmax is schooling me over on Reddit, then i give you a link showing i'm schooling him based on upvotes, you then tell me you're going to take over for him, and now you're telling me you don't go over there?

can you be any more misleading?

Don't call me a liar.  I admitted to browsing nullc and other core dev commentary when linked from here.  You don't have to have an account or log in to read Reddit.

Once again, if I were posting there you would recognize my inimitable writing style (unless you've gone full paranoid and believe I'd adopt a different persona).

You know full well I've had in the past vicious quarrels with gmax.  But the truth is he has in recent posts been making a fool of you, green arrows notwithstanding.

As for upvotes from Gavinista redditards, it pains me to witness the once-mighty cypherdoc reduced to argumentum ad populum.   Cry
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 07, 2015, 01:35:32 AM
Would any of you guys care to comment on these two articles that assert that :

1) We are already hitting the 1MB block limit "an average of more than four times per day so far in 2015"

I haven't had time to read the articles (links at quoted post above) but my initial response to the claim is that is suggests the "hard crash" theory is wrong. If we are already hitting the limit regularly, then the system is able to handle that. People will learn to use higher tx fees to prioritize urgent transactions, just as they learned to stop using zero fee for urgent transactions a year or two ago, and slightly longer term probably a bunch of spam will get forced off the network altogether. The market mechanism is working.

I've personally run into very slow confirms of low-fee-paying transactions twice, but it wasn't he end of the world (with a ten minute avg block time you have to be prepared for slow confirms anyway). The next time I do a transaction if I care about urgency I'll probably increase the fee a little above the default.

this just tells me we'll never reach an agreement.  and i'm sure you fully believe what you're saying.  i'm sure if fees hit $100/tx you'd probably say it's fine, it will just settle out with time.  the problem is, many ppl are going to quit using Bitcoin well before then and adoption won't go anywhere and probably will go into reverse.

but it's useless debating this anymore b/c opinions are entrenched.  those of us who want to fork off will just have to do so for us to realize our vision of a more widespread network effect.  and that will be ok.  you can do what you want.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the block size. I'm perfectly comfortable popping some corn and watching Gavin and MP go at it.

If I were king I would increase it modestly (less than 20 MB).

I don't know whether $100/tx would be fine. As a reserve currency it might be fine. As a transactional currency it obviously wouldn't.

I also don't know that $100/tx is a realistic estimate any time soon given that we are now at something like $0.05 to nearly aways get into the next block (and getting into the very next block is not always needed -- for a lower fee you can be still be very confident of getting in the next several blocks).

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 01:32:28 AM
Would any of you guys care to comment on these two articles that assert that :

1) We are already hitting the 1MB block limit "an average of more than four times per day so far in 2015"

I haven't had time to read the articles (links at quoted post above) but my initial response to the claim is that is suggests the "hard crash" theory is wrong. If we are already hitting the limit regularly, then the system is able to handle that. People will learn to use higher tx fees to prioritize urgent transactions, just as they learned to stop using zero fee for urgent transactions a year or two ago, and slightly longer term probably a bunch of spam will get forced off the network altogether. The market mechanism is working.

I've personally run into very slow confirms of low-fee-paying transactions twice, but it wasn't he end of the world (with a ten minute avg block time you have to be prepared for slow confirms anyway). The next time I do a transaction if I care about urgency I'll probably increase the fee a little above the default.

this just tells me we'll never reach an agreement.  and i'm sure you fully believe what you're saying.  i'm sure if fees hit $100/tx you'd probably say it's fine, it will just settle out with time.  the problem is, many ppl are going to quit using Bitcoin well before then and adoption won't go anywhere and probably will go into reverse.

but it's useless debating this anymore b/c opinions are entrenched.  those of us who want to fork off will just have to do so for us to realize our vision of a more widespread network effect.  and that will be ok.  you can do what you want.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 01:26:04 AM
I don't have an account on Reddit or any other Conde Naste organ.  That ant-farm is occasionally amusing, but overall too smug and mid-brow for my taste.  They don't even allow more than one side of the anthropogenic climate change debate to be represented!

If I posted at Reddit you would have recognized my writing style.  But I will not contribute free content to any such lumpen bastion of preening, asinine normativity.  I'm shocked and disappointed you fit in so well over there, but alas, so goes the Gavinista movement...

first you claim gmax is schooling me over on Reddit, then i give you a link showing i'm schooling him based on upvotes, you then tell me you're going to take over for him, and now you're telling me you don't go over there?

can you be any more misleading?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 07, 2015, 01:19:54 AM
Would any of you guys care to comment on these two articles that assert that :

1) We are already hitting the 1MB block limit "an average of more than four times per day so far in 2015"

I haven't had time to read the articles (links at quoted post above) but my initial response to the claim is that is suggests the "hard crash" theory is wrong. If we are already hitting the limit regularly, then the system is able to handle that. People will learn to use higher tx fees to prioritize urgent transactions, just as they learned to stop using zero fee for urgent transactions a year or two ago, and slightly longer term probably a bunch of spam will get forced off the network altogether. The market mechanism is working.

I've personally run into very slow confirms of low-fee-paying transactions twice, but it wasn't he end of the world (with a ten minute avg block time you have to be prepared for slow confirms anyway). The next time I do a transaction if I care about urgency I'll probably increase the fee a little above the default.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 01:12:27 AM
oh iCE, you're impossible  Wink

btw, you didn't answer phoenix this morning:

Good morning!!

Would any of you guys care to comment on these two articles that assert that :

1) We are already hitting the 1MB block limit "an average of more than four times per day so far in 2015"

and

2) The 'real' speed of the Bitcoin network is only 2.8 TPS - "largely a result of increasingly complex transactions, often using multiple inputs and outputs"

https://tradeblock.com/blog/bitcoin-network-capacity-analysis-part-1-macro-block-trends

https://tradeblock.com/blog/bitcoin-network-capacity-analysis-part-2-macro-transaction-trends

Thanks!
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 07, 2015, 01:04:17 AM
actually, there's no way f2pool, Eligius, and BTCPool add to 31% of the network.  i count 10% max and f2pool isn't even on the chart.

*...180 degrees later...*

so what if f2pool is Discus fish.  i still say, let them cry.  if the community adopts XT, they will be forced to come along esp if they have inferior connections.  if anything, it's a great opportunity for US mines funded by Wall St to get into the market which is what the USG should encourage to create parity, just like Fred Wilson and i have been recommending.  they should want XT to grow the mkt and enable our mines. 

you really have nothing else to grasp onto do you having contributed nothing to greater understanding in Bitcoin.  i still want to know your handle over on Reddit or are you scared? Wink

OMG you finally figured out f2pool *is* DF.  Some BTC guru you are.  Perhaps you should be more charitable, humble, and resourceful before questioning rudely disputing my superior expertise in that domain?   Cheesy

I already told you the "so what" just as the Discus f2pool ops told Gavin how the cow ate the cabbage.

Gavin listened, and backpedaled to 8MB.  You, OTOH, are too stubborn and prideful to admit fault even when >30% of the network is asking us to calm down and stop exaggerating. 

And now we find you making some kind of silly, desperate, profoundly anti-libertarian protectionist argument against Asian Bitcoining.  Excuse me while I indulge in an epic eye roll...



I don't have an account on Reddit or any other Conde Naste organ.  That ant-farm is occasionally amusing, but overall too smug and mid-brow for my taste.  They don't even allow more than one side of the anthropogenic climate change debate to be represented!

If I posted at Reddit you would have recognized my writing style.  But I will not contribute free content to any such lumpen bastion of preening, asinine normativity.  I'm shocked and disappointed you fit in so well over there, but alas, so goes the Gavinista movement...
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 12:14:16 AM
I don't know, but I'm happy to find out.

i hate to say it, but iCE is right about you guys.

Maybe we're all sort of right about each other :p

What are audiences for, if not to mirror?

What am I right about?  I hope you're not putting words in my mouth again, as when you said blocksize gaming was my #1 concern about GavinCoin.

We three (and gmax too) clearly have far more in common with each other than with the rest of the useless eaters, hence our few points of disagreement are psychosomatically magnified in importance by the phenomenon called narcissism of small differences.

I say we just hug it out.  Except for that weirdo Shelby, he just gets a friendly, semi-patronizing pat on the back.   Cheesy

Doc, did you find the egregious amateur error in this post yet?

actually, there's no way f2pool, Eligius, and BTCPool add to 31% of the network.  i count 10% max and f2pool isn't even on the chart.

C'mon little slugger, I know you can do it!   Wink

so what if f2pool is Discus fish.  i still say, let them cry.  if the community adopts XT, they will be forced to come along esp if they have inferior connections.  if anything, it's a great opportunity for US mines funded by Wall St to get into the market which is what the USG should encourage to create parity, just like Fred Wilson and i have been recommending.  they should want XT to grow the mkt and enable our mines. 

you really have nothing else to grasp onto do you having contributed nothing to greater understanding in Bitcoin.  i still want to know your handle over on Reddit or are you scared? Wink
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 07, 2015, 12:04:02 AM
I don't know, but I'm happy to find out.

i hate to say it, but iCE is right about you guys.

Maybe we're all sort of right about each other :p

What are audiences for, if not to mirror?

What am I right about?  I hope you're not putting words in my mouth again, as when you said blocksize gaming was my #1 concern about GavinCoin.

We three (and gmax too) clearly have far more in common with each other than with the rest of the useless eaters, hence our few points of disagreement are psychosomatically magnified in importance by the phenomenon called narcissism of small differences.

I say we just hug it out.  Except for that weirdo Shelby, he just gets a friendly, semi-patronizing pat on the back.   Cheesy

Doc, did you find the egregious amateur error in this post yet?

actually, there's no way f2pool, Eligius, and BTCPool add to 31% of the network.  i count 10% max and f2pool isn't even on the chart.

C'mon little slugger, I know you can do it!   Wink
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 07, 2015, 12:00:51 AM
I will thus continue the humiliation process gmax started by schooling you on reddit.  It's for your own good.   Smiley


iCE, what's your handle over on Reddit so i can be sure to pay extra attention to stomp on you when you come around?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 06, 2015, 11:26:23 PM
actually, let me memorialize that right here as, given gmax's history of erasing erroneous statements of his, i wouldn't want this one to disappear magically:

[–]pwuillePieter Wuille - Bitcoin Expert 16 points 1 month ago*

Removing the limit enforced by full nodes is equivalent to making miners choose the block size themselves.
It has been shown that there is an unfairness possible in that case. More geographically-centralized, better-connected, and mostly higher-hashpower miners have an incentive to create larger blocks than their smaller more distant colleagues, increasing mining centralization pressure even more.
Enforcing a limit in blocks is a way full nodes have to prevent large miners from getting an advantage over smaller ones. And even further: it is way for them to not make themselves irrelevant because they can't keep up.

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