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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 52. (Read 2032247 times)

legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2015, 12:34:17 PM
it may even have been good.  except that it is encouraging this non-verification scheme for tx's which as you say, may be gamed and has contributed to quite a perversion in analyzing this particular attack and was never visualized in Satoshi's original ideas.
That isn't the problem.

The problem is that there is no way to tell an SPV client that the chain they are following because it has the most proof of work is actually invalid and should be rejected.

If that capability existed, then nobody would have to care whether or not miners choose to burn their own electricity mining invalid blocks or not.

This seems to happen frequently in Bitcoin where bad behaviour by party A can negatively effect party B, and so everybody focuses exclusively on preventing party A's bad behaviour instead of making the system more robust by removing party A's ability to negatively impact party B to solve all current and future problems.

I don't think I agree with the highlighted part.

The structure of the blockchain's proof-of-work on minimal sized headers is itself the mechanism SPV clients use to determine if a chain is valid. Yes they do not verify the chain's contents themselves. Instead they rely on the fact that producing a false longest chain is prohibitly expensive and thus very unlikely.

To effectively pull off a longest but invalid chain attack requires an attacker to spend more mining effort than the rest of the ecosystem, in order to produce a false chain that will never be acknowledged by the p2p network and can only be used to temporarily trick SPV users.

In short, proof of work on headers is itself a form of validation.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2015, 12:16:49 PM
[...]
So to answer your question, my view is that IBLT would not affect the health of the fee market (but it would reduce fees overall).
[...]

I think this unclear and could be misconstrued. This is the fee per transaction you are talking about, correct? As no one really knows about the total amount of fees without assumptions about the demand curve.

Hey awemany, great to see you here. Peter R I'm not fully understanding the implications of something like IBLT, I understand the benefits but intuitively I've always felt the risk of block propagation was a the minimum incentive necessary to regulate blocksize however I've been a little concerned It may not be enough.

So IBLT while innovative could be deployed in a way that diminishes the incentive to make small blocks, is my understanding correct that the free market system is not impeded by such an innovation and the incentives to mine smaller block is still preserved?

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 11, 2015, 12:13:56 PM

Weird.  I'm no longer seeing that post on Reddit.  Was it just censored?  I see it if I follow the link given above, but I can't find any longer of I go to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ .

It disappeared for me too ! Is Theymos really banning something this substantial ?

look, you might as well get it straight right now; he does censor.  for those who know me, i've been complaining about he and his mod plebes censoring posts for years now here on BCT.  i'm not surprised he's doing it now on Reddit.  my best guess is theymos is still in his 20's; when i first communicated with him back in 2011 he was still in school for CS.  don't expect maturity from him as has been demonstrated on a number of other issues.

i half expect this thread to be shut down any moment.

It's back now (at least for me)!
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2015, 12:05:41 PM

The problem is that there is no way to tell an SPV client that the chain they are following because it has the most proof of wo
This seems to happen frequently in Bitcoin where bad behaviour by party A can negatively effect party B, and so everybody focuses exclusively on preventing party A's bad behaviour instead of making the system more robust by removing party A's ability to negatively impact party B to solve all current and future problems.

This is a great point it's the core idea behind my diminishing faith in the majority of popular developers, they are building (developing) on top of systematic mistakes or fundamental deviations from the construct of incentives the code is needed to govern.

The problem is they are seeing their past work as progress and future fixes as necessary to overcome satoshis mistakes.

From my point of view satoshi made lots of mistakes, but where he succeeded was in aligning incentives to make a robust money, this is under threat as those incentives are sometimes considered critiqued as inefficiency.

Case in point (SPV) mining - originally employed by Ghash to improve their orphan rate this bug should have been removed to diminish their advantage, where as the developers seemed to sanction it's deployment throughout the network to balance competition.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 11, 2015, 12:00:49 PM

Weird.  I'm no longer seeing that post on Reddit.  Was it just censored?  I see it if I follow the link given above, but I can't find any longer of I go to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ .

It disappeared for me too ! Is Theymos really banning something this substantial ?

look, you might as well get it straight right now; he does censor.  for those who know me, i've been complaining about he and his mod plebes censoring posts for years now here on BCT.  i'm not surprised he's doing it now on Reddit.  my best guess is theymos is still in his 20's; when i first communicated with him back in 2011 he was still in school for CS.  don't expect maturity from him as has been demonstrated on a number of other issues.

i half expect this thread to be shut down any moment.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
August 11, 2015, 11:59:51 AM
Using logic, I can see two possible reason for being a block minimalist developer.

1)  Since "Uh oh, here it is we who decide the size of the blocks", because having power is good. Since there is no consensus within the self appointed dominator group, we have to wait until the royals can come to agreement.

2) They want to suffocate bitcoin, permanently if possible, to get a head start on their endevour into competing systems.

I'm leaning more and more towards 2, judging by the percentage of Blockstream supremacists and monero pimps between block minimalists.

I don't follow your logic.
Larger blocks would help Blockstream be effective.
I doubt there are many people (if any) in either Blockstream or Monero that are seeking for Bitcoin to not succeed.

It is disingenuous to assume a wicked motive in this debate just because you disagree on the risk assessment.
Those that disagree with you could do the same and say that you want big blocks ahead of other developments because you want Bitcoin to fail and it would also not make any sense or be useful to getting the right answer.

I used "logic" to sound arrogant, it is a bad habit. Anyway, there is absolutely no higher risk with 1.1 MB than 1.0 MB. I don't want to repeat all the other arguments either way.

There is also absolutely no point to move from 1.0 MB to 1.1 MB.


I think it would be a good move. Revitalise trust from those with only toes in, then moon...

 Shocked

Hard fork the network and risk catastrophic consensus failure to "revitalise trust" is a good move!?

You are out of your mind.



Look if you are that risk averse - how do you dare touch the Internet. There are child molesters on the net, didn't you know?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
August 11, 2015, 11:55:50 AM
Quote
Anyways, to really understand what happens when R->0 I think we need to make a new model that takes into account what we just learned from your chart above (that miners won't necessarily be hashing all the time).

That seems to be an interesting point illustrating how the best interest of users and miners incentives could diverge.
For users, an empty block is always better than no block because it adds work to the chain and increases the security of the previous transactions.

1 If this turns out to be frequent, the difficulty would adjust.

2 If there are no transactions, a block is really not needed.
legendary
Activity: 1473
Merit: 1086
August 11, 2015, 11:55:18 AM

Weird.  I'm no longer seeing that post on Reddit.  Was it just censored?  I see it if I follow the link given above, but I can't find any longer of I go to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ .

It disappeared for me too ! Is Theymos really banning something this substantial ?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 11, 2015, 11:53:19 AM

Weird.  I'm no longer seeing that post on Reddit.  Was it just censored?  I see it if I follow the link given above, but I can't find any longer of I go to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ .

yes it was censored.  this is why i've switched to: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
August 11, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
Using logic, I can see two possible reason for being a block minimalist developer.

1)  Since "Uh oh, here it is we who decide the size of the blocks", because having power is good. Since there is no consensus within the self appointed dominator group, we have to wait until the royals can come to agreement.

2) They want to suffocate bitcoin, permanently if possible, to get a head start on their endevour into competing systems.

I'm leaning more and more towards 2, judging by the percentage of Blockstream supremacists and monero pimps between block minimalists.

I don't follow your logic.
Larger blocks would help Blockstream be effective.
I doubt there are many people (if any) in either Blockstream or Monero that are seeking for Bitcoin to not succeed.

It is disingenuous to assume a wicked motive in this debate just because you disagree on the risk assessment.
Those that disagree with you could do the same and say that you want big blocks ahead of other developments because you want Bitcoin to fail and it would also not make any sense or be useful to getting the right answer.

I think what he is saying is that he doesn't think the [2] people want bitcoin to fail, they want to leverage the artificial fee market to push the adoption of their preferred alternative technology.


Right, hold back, not kill entirely, because what they have is only dreams and vaporware.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gldfn/alpha_thundernetwork_a_lightning_network/

Vaporware you say?

So I was 2 hours out of sync with reality.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 11, 2015, 11:51:25 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/comments/3gl8oc/mike_hearns_plans_for_bitcoin_xt_this_upcoming/

i will be upgrading my current XT nodes to the master 0.11 when it comes out.  that will be the one WITH bigger blocks.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 11, 2015, 11:45:56 AM

Weird.  I'm no longer seeing that post on Reddit.  Was it just censored?  I see it if I follow the link given above, but I can't find any longer of I go to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/ .
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 11, 2015, 11:40:00 AM

This is very interesting.  Here's the corresponding Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3glfo1/44_of_bitcoin_mining_hash_power_is_currently/

Let's say you are an exchange or a payment company and you are impartial to big versus small blocks.  What is the rational thing to do?  Well, the rational thing is to run XT (or Core with an 8 MB patch) because then you will follow the longest proof-of-work chain no matter what happens!  If you stick with Core "as is," then you may fork yourself from the economic majority.  
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
August 11, 2015, 11:38:50 AM
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12105991

Can someone do the same for Bitcoin??
Seems I am on ignore on everyone here  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 11, 2015, 11:38:10 AM
hey iCEBLOW.  blow this:

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
August 11, 2015, 11:34:20 AM
This chart brings up a very good point.  Like you point out, in such a scenario, the miner can only earn a profit if he can include a sufficient number of fee-paying TXs in his block.  But what happens if the miner before him cleaned out the mempool?  It seems the rational miner will stop hashing1 entirely until enough new transactions have built up to push his block into the "profitable" zone in your graph (the zone where the supply curve is below the demand curve).  

Do you see this as a problem?  I see this as the network working at its maximum efficiency... note that every miner will have a slightly different cost so hashing power will turn off at different times.  And if running intermittent hashing power causes blocks to come less often than once per 10minutes, the difficulty will be reduced.  The reduction in difficulty will allow blocks to be found with less hash power so your hardware will be more likely to find the block.  This means miners will power up their hardware with fewer transactions in the mempool.

So the system self-adjusts.

The awesome part of it is that there is NO minimum fee.  Difficulty will always adjust to allow the minimum fee to be whatever people are willing to pay (presumably to just below competitive money transmission systems).

No, I see this as a positive.  I agree with everything you wrote above.  

However, one thing I'd like to reconcile is the fact that Eq. (11)



suggests the cost to spam the blockchain falls to zero as R->0.  I was wondering if my model "breaks" when the block reward becomes small because it is not considering that rational miners would stop and start hashing depending on the fees available from mempool.  
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
August 11, 2015, 11:33:12 AM
oh my, Cripplecoiners in Big Trouble:

https://twitter.com/Datavetaren/status/631080568487342080
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
August 11, 2015, 11:27:03 AM
Quote
Anyways, to really understand what happens when R->0 I think we need to make a new model that takes into account what we just learned from your chart above (that miners won't necessarily be hashing all the time).

That seems to be an interesting point illustrating how the best interest of users and miners incentives could diverge.
For users, an empty block is always better than no block because it adds work to the chain and increases the security of the previous transactions.

"interest of users and miner's incentives could diverge"... this is a very odd way of describing the situation because these interests are of course divergent.  

The interest of a seller is always to sell at the highest price, and the buyer to buy at the lowest.  It is this tension that makes price discovery work.


This chart brings up a very good point.  Like you point out, in such a scenario, the miner can only earn a profit if he can include a sufficient number of fee-paying TXs in his block.  But what happens if the miner before him cleaned out the mempool?  It seems the rational miner will stop hashing1 entirely until enough new transactions have built up to push his block into the "profitable" zone in your graph (the zone where the supply curve is below the demand curve).  

Do you see this as a problem?  I see this as the network working at its maximum efficiency... note that every miner will have a slightly different cost so hashing power will turn off at different times.  And if running intermittent hashing power causes blocks to come less often than once per 10minutes, the difficulty will be reduced.  The reduction in difficulty will allow blocks to be found with less hash power so your hardware will be more likely to find the block.  This means miners will power up their hardware with fewer transactions in the mempool.

So the system self-adjusts.

The awesome part of it is that there is NO minimum fee.  Difficulty will always adjust to allow the minimum fee to be whatever people are willing to pay (presumably to just below competitive money transmission systems).
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 11, 2015, 11:23:33 AM
Using logic, I can see two possible reason for being a block minimalist developer.

1)  Since "Uh oh, here it is we who decide the size of the blocks", because having power is good. Since there is no consensus within the self appointed dominator group, we have to wait until the royals can come to agreement.

2) They want to suffocate bitcoin, permanently if possible, to get a head start on their endevour into competing systems.

I'm leaning more and more towards 2, judging by the percentage of Blockstream supremacists and monero pimps between block minimalists.

I don't follow your logic.
Larger blocks would help Blockstream be effective.
I doubt there are many people (if any) in either Blockstream or Monero that are seeking for Bitcoin to not succeed.

It is disingenuous to assume a wicked motive in this debate just because you disagree on the risk assessment.
Those that disagree with you could do the same and say that you want big blocks ahead of other developments because you want Bitcoin to fail and it would also not make any sense or be useful to getting the right answer.

I used "logic" to sound arrogant, it is a bad habit. Anyway, there is absolutely no higher risk with 1.1 MB than 1.0 MB. I don't want to repeat all the other arguments either way.

There is also absolutely no point to move from 1.0 MB to 1.1 MB.


I think it would be a good move. Revitalise trust from those with only toes in, then moon...

 Shocked

Hard fork the network and risk catastrophic consensus failure to "revitalise trust" is a good move!?

You are out of your mind.

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