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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 787. (Read 2032266 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
...

I agree with all that you have said.

Maybe I need to expand on my thoughts one last time in an effort to have you guys consider where I'm coming from.

I believe that Bitcoin, as is, is the closest form of perfect money we have ever seen.

Its shortcomings, or areas for improvement, in my opinion are as follow :

1. Long confirmation time
2. Privacy (anonymity) option not native as a user-defined option
3. Block size for scaling
4. Possibility that a better mining algorithm exist that could improve decentralization

Aside from the obvious scaling concern, Bitcoin could very well survive as digital gold without seeing any of the improvements I have mentioned. Its fundamentals are THAT strong.

For a long time I envisioned that my previous concerns would be addressed in more centralized type of schemes, or, as some would call it, through off-blockchain transactions.

Now with sidechains, we are provided with the possibility to create these chains that are attached to BTC's mainchain and function in an interoperable way using BTC as their transacting unit, effectively maintaining the ledger.

There, I believe, is our opportunity to create a certain number of sidechains that will work in synergy with the main chain and add considerable value to it.

We do NOT need a BILLION of sidechains. I am in agreement with Adam that it is likely only a relatively small number of them will get the proper developer support and most importantly, miners support. In that regard, I think a lot of people fool themselves into thinking that because the security model proposed in the sidechains paper is merged-mining then all of the sidechains will get this benefit. This is a grave mistake and is exactly why I have been adamant in saying that altcoins booted on top of a sidechain are not, in any way whatsoever, a greater risk to Bitcoin than regular alts are. For this reason, ANY concern that has for a premise the creation of a sidecoin is irrelevant to the discussion as it is NOT enabled by the sidechain proposition.

What we should be discussing and perhaps trying to poke hole in is the use of sidechains as utility features using a unit that is pegged 1:1 with BTC. This, the two-way peg, is the innovation behind the sidechain concept. Everything else has been possible before.

What could these utilities be? Well allow me to return to my list of Bitcoin as money shortcomings :

1. A sidechain allowing for faster transaction times.
2. A sidechain enabling anonymous transactions

My interest in this exercise is Bitcoin as money : store of value, means-of-exchange and unit of account. Traditionally we're looking for these characteristics : scarcity, divisibility, portability, verifiability, recognizability and fungibility. Now, with the proposed sidechains we improve the characteristic of portability (faster transactions) and enable the user-defined additional feature of privacy.

Now cypher here argues that the anonymous sidechain creates a risk for it to potentially to take over as the mainchain. I disagree with that as I see anonymity as a niche market in this world's current settings but I can certainly envision a day where this is no longer true and everyone has a need for 100% private transactions but the day is not now and so that point is moot. Meanwhile the two markets, black and white both can work in synergy and create value for each other.

The same could be said about faster transactions times. At a certain point we might have the technology to make this happen without any security tradeoff but at the moment I believe sidechains is the best decentralized way to go about it.

In this setting, transactions are plentiful in all three chains and miners have an incentive to mine all three of them. The ledger is preserved and there is no dilution or loss of value
 
Having said all of that, what exactly is the "risk created"? If it is that an innovative new sidechain makes Bitcoin obsolete then should we really call that a risk? Is it a risk to create a better form of money? Is Bitcoin a risk? I guess you could say it is but I think all of us here agree that its added value to society is worth the risk.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
November 02, 2014, 09:24:06 PM
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 02, 2014, 09:21:46 PM
The risk of inserting exponential transaction growth as Gavin wants to try to sneak in as a hard fork is, to me, greater than the risk of increasing the 21 million currency base figure.

 Huh

but it (sidechains) does not do that

Sidechains do not enter in to the comment.  This is what Gavin proposes for Bitcoin.  To me it guarantees that Bitcoin will at some point be controlled by a small number of high powered organizations (unless the hard-fork is rolled back out by another hard fork or Bitcoin fails for other reasons.)

and I disagree. the moment the 21,000,001 coin appears I'm selling all of my BTC.

I don't expect that you or almost anyone else would agree.  That's why I inserted 'to me' in the statement.  I have something of an orthogonal mind.

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 02, 2014, 08:34:30 PM
No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

I'm buying every time I have a penny loose my friend.

It is tragic that a gross misunderstanding would have you sell your Bitcoins.

You have pennies at risk my misunderstanding is your good fortune. Enjoy.
full member
Activity: 156
Merit: 100
November 02, 2014, 08:26:08 PM
soo...who is buying gold silver? I simply can't look away from these attractive prices  Cool
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 02, 2014, 08:24:08 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?

No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

sorry to hear you're selling but i have to agree with you:

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 08:22:38 PM
No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

I'm buying every time I have a penny loose my friend.

It is tragic that a gross misunderstanding would have you sell your Bitcoins.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 08:21:02 PM
why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

not worth the risk given the potential for SC to destroy the MC
Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC

and yet they're not. but you want to create SC's with altcoins which will enable this on a widespread basis?

Enable this?

Miners decide on whether they merge mine or not. It is not because the model to secure sidechains is merged-mining that subsequently ALL sidechains will be picked up by the miners. They will decide to mine those that are worth their time, exactly like with alts.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 02, 2014, 08:16:18 PM
why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

not worth the risk given the potential for SC to destroy the MC
Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC

and yet they're not. but you want to create SC's with altcoins which will enable this on a widespread basis?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 02, 2014, 08:14:03 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

what %migration to scBTC would elicit the MC devs to fork in the innovation?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 02, 2014, 08:13:05 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?

No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 08:00:56 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 02, 2014, 07:58:30 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 02, 2014, 07:54:24 PM
Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC
Any?
Like LTC?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 07:39:07 PM
way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
November 02, 2014, 07:38:27 PM


and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.

how can you say that with such certainty.
Why mine a coin if it has no reward. What makes this certain is the belief that miners are motivated to spend real industrial energy for profit.

The only counter argument is miners will MM because it costs no energy.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 07:35:55 PM
why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 02, 2014, 07:24:36 PM
like i said above, user anonymity should be a widely sought after feature.  and your security argument is a logical fallacy in that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that faster tx times will be achieved in the future that doesn't effect network security, point being SC's coupled with that innovation will obsolete Bitcoin

If it is so then it will be implemented in the mainchain

why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?
you should.  but how inconvenient, insecure, along with identity compromise from having to move all your BTC to a SC every few years.

As inconvenient, insecure as it was to move your fiat to BTC.

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?
if a SC employs sidecoins/altcoins, the risk for Bitcoin is even greater than that of a simple SC alone just paying fees.  miners who defect would now be getting paid not only tx fees but also block rewards on a SC that everybody has migrated to b/c of the innovation.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is the sidecoin scenario is no different than any altcoin ie. the sidechains does not enable them in any significant way.

 Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 02, 2014, 07:20:37 PM
I don't begrudge Cypherdoc not going into detail on dismembering these, because they aren't all that substantial as critic defenses go.  I don't know if it was sincere claim that these "debunk" all concerns for all people reading this or if that is just baiting.

Mistake 1 : Sidechains can protect the value through merged mining.
If at some point in the future, there is a particular SC that consumes the bulk of bitcoins in circulation, there is a non-zero risk to Bitcoin that there will be insufficient bitcoin transactions to support bitcoin mining in the later days.  It will have ended Bitcoin (albeit presumably for something better).  People are not always right, that's how we got to where we are with pervasive central banking

The bolded is what I cannot comprehend.

To suggest such a thing would happen is essentially to suggest that a sidechain would be created that carries all of Bitcoin features and more. So essentially, what you are speculating is that a sidechain could be created that is so innovative it removes the need for the Bitcoin blockchain.

But it begs the question : what features could be so compelling?

Anonymity? My opinion is this should be user-defined?
Faster transactions? This comes at the cost of network security

If such a chain emerges that offers these features in a user-defined manner without any tradeoff, then why should we not welcome it with open arms?
There are thousands of reasons one might not welcome this.
One may not be able to trade out of one for the other.
There could be a different scBTC that one might prefer.

I am with you in that I agree that there are good financial innovations.
Do you also understand that there are dangerously bad ones too?
Do you also understand that very often people will choose these dangerously bad ones over the good ones, and that sometimes they do not become so dangerously bad until enough people welcome them with open arms?

Perhaps this is the fundamental point of disagreement?
There are so many different things in the SC bucket that anyone who thinks that no caution is needed is not thinking very hard.

It is akin to saying "we have invented derivatives, yeah baby".  
It is a fintech innovation. Arguably a very good one, but people have different opinions on that.  It has also created risks that were not managed.
scBTC is similar in this way in that it necessarily increases the complexity risks systemically.
It may be worth while.  This will depend on the people and how the technologies are implemented and used, don't you think?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 02, 2014, 07:17:58 PM


and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.

how can you say that with such certainty.
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