Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 801.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Odalv on November 01, 2014, 10:10:33 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on November 01, 2014, 09:59:14 AM

simple theory question for all SC proponents. so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325. SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration). we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc. let's say price starts off @ ~~$100~~. $325

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270? multiply this by 1000 SC's.

FTFY

it can't start off @ $325 b/c the SC IS less secure and the risk of being on an entirely different ledger with less security means the instantaneous initial price has to be lower. yes, with time the 2 prices will equilibrate, but at a lower price.

Odalv

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Quote from: cypherdoc on November 01, 2014, 09:59:14 AM

simple theory question for all SC proponents. so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325. SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration). we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc. let's say price starts off @ ~~$100~~. $325

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270? multiply this by 1000 SC's.

FTFY

cypherdoc

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simple theory question for all SC proponents. so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325. SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration). we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc. let's say price starts off @ $100.

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270 or whatever the equilibrium is btwn BTC and scBTC, which we know is lower? multiply this by 1000 SC's.

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: tvbcof on October 31, 2014, 08:28:13 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

...
alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Alarm bells went of in my head when Gavin visited the CFR and would not commit to transparency. Then when he got back he wouldn't even give a debriefing about what went down.

Long before that alarm bells went off in my head about Hearn (who you seem to have a man crush on for some reason) who has tried every thing he can to get Bitcoin under control of TPTB. Unlimited growth, 'red'listing, positive ID through mainstream passports, etc, etc.

When Gavin newly proposed exponential blocksize growth that sealed it for me. He did some good stuff back before he became 'principle scientist' and started the Bitcoin Foundation, but I've seen nothing since then. Even his dev priorities when he did seem to have his head in more or less the right place have done very little to actually strengthen the solution. I dunno what his trip is, but I'm convinced that it is not good for Bitcoin or my stash.

As for the Blockstream guys, making a living off an open-source project is very common and most often benefits both the community and the clients who will pay them. You may be serious in trying to spin this thing as something nefarious, but in that case you are just showing more of you ignorance.

The point is less that "it happens all the time", and more that SC are potentially competition for Bitcoin as much as they are collaboration with Bitcoin.
How many of your competition work in the core engine of your business, and how comfortable are you with that notion?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 06:43:47 PM

Quote from: Adrian-x on October 31, 2014, 06:26:51 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

followed closely by LukeJr who said the same. LukeJr then launched off on a rant about how we should "want them to get paid". nice spin Luke. i don't have a problem with you starting a private company but not while taking advantage of your position.

I don't like nor trust Luke jr. He's the biggest criminal of the lot. Seriously, did non-one follow his actions in the past years?

Luke, I'd pay for you NOT to work on Bitcoin. I don't trust you at all.

so i know many prominent Bitcoin celebrates have dubious reputations, but i haven't followed Luke jr.

not to raise any accusations in what issues has he been involved that caused you to lose trust?

I'm only aware of some name calling between CGMiner and BFGMiner, to be honest I never got to the bottom of it all, and went with CGMiner dare i say it because i didn't trust Luke's slanted eyed avatar.

numerous run ins with Gavin, famously BIP 16: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61705.30;wap2

Luke is actually not a core dev specifically b/c Gavin won't let him b/c of trust issues

Luke-Jr. attacks and kills Coiledcoin alt-currency using the Eligius mining pool:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/o6qwx/lukejr_attacks_and_kills_coiledcoin_altcurrency/

Luke Jr. is that twat that spammed the blockchain with Catholic prayers no?

He did many many things and keeps confirming he's an asshole but the actual trigger to lose trust? Using his pool to kill and alt coin years ago without permission of the miners. If anyone in the world ever liked abusing power it's this guy right here.

LukeJr is bitcoin's official stress tester.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: Cortex7 on October 31, 2014, 07:54:34 PM

Do any of you guys know of a worked out p2p marketplace with a democratic escrow system?

I've read some posts on reddit etc talking of how it might be done and I've seen some altcoin creators have it on their roadmap, but I'm not aware of anything real yet.

https://openbazaar.org/

https://bitsquare.io/

Wekkel

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yes

With official taper here and gold price tanking, its time to revisit this old gem:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-22/what-shadow-banking-can-tell-us-about-feds-exit-path-dead-end

cypherdoc

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interesting:

https://twitter.com/spair/status/528363817797812224

cypherdoc

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on October 31, 2014, 09:31:55 PM

Quote from: lebing on October 31, 2014, 05:16:42 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

we really haven't focused on the ethics of what gmax and the other core devs are doing.

i know the argument goes like this; they're the brightest minds in Bitcoin who have done so much for us we should be thankful, they have "positions" in BTC so they would NEVER do anything to harm Bitcoin, they deserve it, we should WANT them to be paid, SC's are neutral and are just trying to help Bitcoin, all you skeptics "just don't get it", etc.

well, the fact of the matter is we do get it. we've flushed out alot right here in this thread. and all of this technical babble has ignored the fact that what they are doing is unethical. abusing one's privileged position as a core dev and pushing for a very specific and unique change in the source code, while simultaneously creating a for-profit company that seeks to profit off said change is unethical. i asked gmax in the AMA whether he thought he should step down as core dev due to what is to any objective person a conflict of interest. he said he thought that was "unreasonable" followed closely by LukeJr who said the same. LukeJr then launched off on a rant about how we should "want them to get paid". nice spin Luke. i don't have a problem with you starting a private company but not while taking advantage of your position. at least in the real world of banksters, there are plenty of examples where ppl step down b/c of conflicts of interest for reasons even more remotely unrelated than this. these guys don't get it. Satoshi spent at least 2 yrs of his life developing Bitcoin without being paid, so there. AND he hasn't cashed in any of his BTC that we know of to profit from Bitcoin. now that's public service for you. one might argue that should be the standard for Bitcoin. maybe we need/deserve core devs who don't have gmax or Luke's attitudes? Bitcoin has the potential to become a global currency so an argument can be made that it should be maintained for the public good. i for one think there are plenty of devs who would love to step up and replace those guys.

alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Cypher, let it go man. You are entitled to your opinion but the fact is that pretty much noone agrees with you on this one. The horse is dead already. No need to keep hitting it.

I agree with CD, and your appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy in any case.

GM has already demonstrated his capacity for terrible judgement and hypocrisy, in the Custom Hardware sub where he repeatedly violated/refused to enforce the rules HE WROTE and stupidly advised people to eschew full ASIC refunds because he clung so strongly to his sense of entitlement to an unethical windfall. He is a hyper-specialized codemonkey who has no business being responsible for anything outside of programming.

Regardless, I don't think we can win the political battle to fork BitCoin into SideCoin due to the incentives created by the conflicts of interest. My only comfort is seeing the Maximalists turning BTC into the ultimate altcoin, driven by their fundamentalist zeal for jihad against all other cyptos (which they consider blasphemous abominations unto Holy Satoshi).

well, since they've set up a for-profit company to take advantage of their source code change, it could simply just be a matter of money.

i agree with what you say about GM though.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: lebing on October 31, 2014, 05:16:42 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

we really haven't focused on the ethics of what gmax and the other core devs are doing.

i know the argument goes like this; they're the brightest minds in Bitcoin who have done so much for us we should be thankful, they have "positions" in BTC so they would NEVER do anything to harm Bitcoin, they deserve it, we should WANT them to be paid, SC's are neutral and are just trying to help Bitcoin, all you skeptics "just don't get it", etc.

well, the fact of the matter is we do get it. we've flushed out alot right here in this thread. and all of this technical babble has ignored the fact that what they are doing is unethical. abusing one's privileged position as a core dev and pushing for a very specific and unique change in the source code, while simultaneously creating a for-profit company that seeks to profit off said change is unethical. i asked gmax in the AMA whether he thought he should step down as core dev due to what is to any objective person a conflict of interest. he said he thought that was "unreasonable" followed closely by LukeJr who said the same. LukeJr then launched off on a rant about how we should "want them to get paid". nice spin Luke. i don't have a problem with you starting a private company but not while taking advantage of your position. at least in the real world of banksters, there are plenty of examples where ppl step down b/c of conflicts of interest for reasons even more remotely unrelated than this. these guys don't get it. Satoshi spent at least 2 yrs of his life developing Bitcoin without being paid, so there. AND he hasn't cashed in any of his BTC that we know of to profit from Bitcoin. now that's public service for you. one might argue that should be the standard for Bitcoin. maybe we need/deserve core devs who don't have gmax or Luke's attitudes? Bitcoin has the potential to become a global currency so an argument can be made that it should be maintained for the public good. i for one think there are plenty of devs who would love to step up and replace those guys.

alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Cypher, let it go man. You are entitled to your opinion but the fact is that pretty much noone agrees with you on this one. The horse is dead already. No need to keep hitting it.

I agree with CD, and your appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy in any case.

GM has already demonstrated his capacity for terrible judgement and hypocrisy, in the Custom Hardware sub where he repeatedly violated/refused to enforce the rules HE WROTE and stupidly advised people to eschew full ASIC refunds because he clung so strongly to his sense of entitlement to an unethical windfall. He is a hyper-specialized codemonkey who has no business being responsible for anything outside of programming.

Regardless, I don't think we can win the political battle to fork BitCoin into SideCoin due to the incentives created by the conflicts of interest. My only comfort is seeing the Maximalists turning BTC into the ultimate altcoin, driven by their fundamentalist zeal for jihad against all other cyptos (which they consider blasphemous abominations unto Holy Satoshi).

cypherdoc

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Quote from: tvbcof on October 31, 2014, 08:28:13 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

...
alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Alarm bells went of in my head when Gavin visited the CFR and would not commit to transparency. Then when he got back he wouldn't even give a debriefing about what went down.

as usual, you're distorting things. i think Gavin has been very responsible as lead dev and quite frankly is the only one i trust anymore except for Wladimir and still maybe Pieter.

Quote

Long before that alarm bells went off in my head about Hearn (who you seem to have a man crush on for some reason) who has tried every thing he can to get Bitcoin under control of TPTB. Unlimited growth, 'red'listing, positive ID through mainstream passports, etc, etc.

wtf are you blabbing about now? you are such a complainer. Hearn man crush? give me an example of what you're talking about. more delusion from you.

Quote

When Gavin newly proposed exponential blocksize growth that sealed it for me. He did some good stuff back before he became 'principle scientist' and started the Bitcoin Foundation, but I've seen nothing since then. Even his dev priorities when he did seem to have his head in more or less the right place have done very little to actually strengthen the solution. I dunno what his trip is, but I'm convinced that it is not good for Bitcoin or my stash.

w/o Gavin, Bitcoin would not have gotten as far as it has. he has the utmost respect if you read the general community response to him (quiet JR) and he's about the only one who can keep his mouth shut.

Quote

As for the Blockstream guys, making a living off an open-source project is very common and most often benefits both the community and the clients who will pay them. You may be serious in trying to spin this thing as something nefarious, but in that case you are just showing more of you ignorance.

no one's spinning anything. i'm telling it like i see it.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Bitcoin is running point and is at a crossroads. Miners are getting selfish and destroying goodwill. Litecoin is following in Bitcoin's footsteps and will be ready to take its place if it fails. If Bitcoin is unwilling to take risks in order to maintain its lead, then maybe its time to step back and let litecoin take all the risks. Perhaps developers like Blockstream would be welcome by the scrypt community. Maybe the next big ASIC developer will not be so ~~hasty~~ reluctant to pay a little back to the community that made their industry possible.

tvbcof

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

...
alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Alarm bells went of in my head when Gavin visited the CFR and would not commit to transparency. Then when he got back he wouldn't even give a debriefing about what went down.

Long before that alarm bells went off in my head about Hearn (who you seem to have a man crush on for some reason) who has tried every thing he can to get Bitcoin under control of TPTB. Unlimited growth, 'red'listing, positive ID through mainstream passports, etc, etc.

When Gavin newly proposed exponential blocksize growth that sealed it for me. He did some good stuff back before he became 'principle scientist' and started the Bitcoin Foundation, but I've seen nothing since then. Even his dev priorities when he did seem to have his head in more or less the right place have done very little to actually strengthen the solution. I dunno what his trip is, but I'm convinced that it is not good for Bitcoin or my stash.

As for the Blockstream guys, making a living off an open-source project is very common and most often benefits both the community and the clients who will pay them. You may be serious in trying to spin this thing as something nefarious, but in that case you are just showing more of you ignorance.

Cortex7

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Do any of you guys know of a worked out p2p marketplace with a democratic escrow system?

I've read some posts on reddit etc talking of how it might be done and I've seen some altcoin creators have it on their roadmap, but I'm not aware of anything real yet.

Erdogan

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Quote from: lebing on October 31, 2014, 05:16:42 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

we really haven't focused on the ethics of what gmax and the other core devs are doing.

i know the argument goes like this; they're the brightest minds in Bitcoin who have done so much for us we should be thankful, they have "positions" in BTC so they would NEVER do anything to harm Bitcoin, they deserve it, we should WANT them to be paid, SC's are neutral and are just trying to help Bitcoin, all you skeptics "just don't get it", etc.

well, the fact of the matter is we do get it. we've flushed out alot right here in this thread. and all of this technical babble has ignored the fact that what they are doing is unethical. abusing one's privileged position as a core dev and pushing for a very specific and unique change in the source code, while simultaneously creating a for-profit company that seeks to profit off said change is unethical. i asked gmax in the AMA whether he thought he should step down as core dev due to what is to any objective person a conflict of interest. he said he thought that was "unreasonable" followed closely by LukeJr who said the same. LukeJr then launched off on a rant about how we should "want them to get paid". nice spin Luke. i don't have a problem with you starting a private company but not while taking advantage of your position. at least in the real world of banksters, there are plenty of examples where ppl step down b/c of conflicts of interest for reasons even more remotely unrelated than this. these guys don't get it. Satoshi spent at least 2 yrs of his life developing Bitcoin without being paid, so there. AND he hasn't cashed in any of his BTC that we know of to profit from Bitcoin. now that's public service for you. one might argue that should be the standard for Bitcoin. maybe we need/deserve core devs who don't have gmax or Luke's attitudes? Bitcoin has the potential to become a global currency so an argument can be made that it should be maintained for the public good. i for one think there are plenty of devs who would love to step up and replace those guys.

alarm bells should be going off in all Bitcoin holders heads right now. this isn't right even if the SC concept were valid, which i don't think it is.

Cypher, let it go man. You are entitled to your opinion but the fact is that pretty much noone agrees with you on this one. The horse is dead already. No need to keep hitting it.

So a majority, thrown out from nowhere, as evidence, trumps an argument based on ethics?

cypherdoc

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well now, i'm glad i didn't buy a ticket:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/virgin-galactic-spaceship-crashes-1414781841

Erdogan

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 01:57:40 PM

Ok, I'm really getting sick of this fundamental misunderstanding making the rounds these days that "its the Blockchain stupid" that makes Bitcoin valuable and not the currency. I put the blame for this misperception squarely at the feet of Andreas as he's the one who's been most public and vocal spreading this view. After all, he is one of the geeks.

See 4:30 with Arthur Levitt :

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/video/arthur-levitt-on-sec-s-edgar-filing-system-and-bitcoin-YVtI25q8Tn~vJ2NWIawrpw.html

Let me flip this argument around and say "no stupid, it's the currency that makes Bitcoin, not the Blockchain". After all, because it's a fixed supply and can't be inflated, THAT is what is resonating with freedom minded people worldwide who are tired of having their money devalued. And because these people have thrown their hard earned fiat money at Bitcoin, precisely for this reason, this is what has caused the price to rise and therefore has facilitated the mining industry to thrive and therefore the Blockchain has been allowed to become the immutable ledger it has become. The Blockchain would be nothing without the currency. Stupid.

Now those who know me best realize I'm saying this partly in jest because what I really believe is that the 2 are inextricably linked as Bitcoin is its own self contained financial system.

Which is why I disagree with the core assumption of the SC concept too, btw, which assumes they can be separated.

Yep, it's bitcoin, the money.

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 06:48:51 PM

Quote from: NewLiberty on October 31, 2014, 06:16:38 PM

On the conflict of interest position...
Is it a conflict of interest if a company sponsors a developer to work on Bitcoin Core?
Is it a conflict of interest if TBF sponsors a developer?
I would say that it is, but the conflict is not necessarily a horrible thing in all cases, just sometimes.

What it does do is encourage me to question the authority of the developer more than otherwise.
I've been doing a good bit of that over the MAX_BLOCKSIZE issue vs. Gavin's proposal to patch it rather than fix it.

i don't have a problem with any of those relationships.

i said it earlier, i wouldn't mind the current bunch of guys proposing SC's be employed by individual companies like Garzik.
it's the banding together under one company that can cause a block of competitors and monoculture.

Gavin's in a special category more pristine under TBF as i'm sure he isn't being paid the big bucks, let alone have equity in a for profit.

I am less black and white on the issue. Everyone has conflicts, some are very serious, others are less so.
I'm not sure TBF is as pristine as all that either. Its shades of grey, and yes, the SC issue is seriously conflicted.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: NewLiberty on October 31, 2014, 06:16:38 PM

On the conflict of interest position...
Is it a conflict of interest if a company sponsors a developer to work on Bitcoin Core?
Is it a conflict of interest if TBF sponsors a developer?
I would say that it is, but the conflict is not necessarily a horrible thing in all cases, just sometimes.

What it does do is encourage me to question the authority of the developer more than otherwise.
I've been doing a good bit of that over the MAX_BLOCKSIZE issue vs. Gavin's proposal to patch it rather than fix it.

i don't have a problem with any of those relationships.

i said it earlier, i wouldn't mind the current bunch of guys proposing SC's be employed by individual companies like Garzik.
it's the banding together under one company that can cause a block of competitors and monoculture.

Gavin's in a special category more pristine under TBF as i'm sure he isn't being paid the big bucks, let alone have equity in a for profit.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Adrian-x on October 31, 2014, 06:26:51 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 31, 2014, 04:56:21 PM

followed closely by LukeJr who said the same. LukeJr then launched off on a rant about how we should "want them to get paid". nice spin Luke. i don't have a problem with you starting a private company but not while taking advantage of your position.

I don't like nor trust Luke jr. He's the biggest criminal of the lot. Seriously, did non-one follow his actions in the past years?

Luke, I'd pay for you NOT to work on Bitcoin. I don't trust you at all.

so i know many prominent Bitcoin celebrates have dubious reputations, but i haven't followed Luke jr.

not to raise any accusations in what issues has he been involved that caused you to lose trust?

I'm only aware of some name calling between CGMiner and BFGMiner, to be honest I never got to the bottom of it all, and went with CGMiner dare i say it because i didn't trust Luke's slanted eyed avatar.

numerous run ins with Gavin, famously BIP 16: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61705.30;wap2

Luke is actually not a core dev specifically b/c Gavin won't let him b/c of trust issues

Luke-Jr. attacks and kills Coiledcoin alt-currency using the Eligius mining pool:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/o6qwx/lukejr_attacks_and_kills_coiledcoin_altcurrency/

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 801. (Read 2032266 times)